Jerry Quarry

[yancey]

Yes, I do --- even if it was more mental than physical, he wasn't quite the same fighter. Some men recover upstairs from their first loss, others don't. Foreman didn't.

To say Frazier's punch resistance had, "waned badly" by the time he fought Foreman the first time is retro-thinking. No one was saying that at the time, &, while I admit it probably wasn't understood at that moment Frazier may've lost a step, people go overboard when saying he had fallen significantly since his prime performance against Ali. Frazier was near to his peak when first he lost to Foreman.

"Frazier was near to his peak when first he lost to Foreman."

Your definition of "near" must be a bit more flexible than mine.

I was pretty interested in the boxing scene back then, and red flags abounded about Frazier post-FOTC.

First, he was not entirely well going in to the FOTC and came out of it in real rough shape. In fact, there were REAL concerns about his health....at one point reports that he was dead. He should have retired, as per Yank Durham's advice. When he did finally fight, he had trouble disposing of Daniels and was rocked by Stander. He would have demolished those guys in his real prime. When I saw him fight Stander, I knew he was past it and felt he had also lost his punch. Frazier was really sticking around for one more huge payday with Ali, imo.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Let's just pretend the Thrilla didn't happen.

Frazier was shot before he fought Foreman. 29-year-old, 27-0-0, undisputed, undefeated, 4-1 starting favourite Heavyweight champion, Frazier.

A shell of himself, who would've put Foreman away were it not for the shoving, & the fact he was at death's door. Oh, & let's not forget everyone's favourite excuse --- the weight --- yes, that eight pounds which weighed on the champion like four volkswagons attached to his lower-gut. Dreams are beautiful.

[yancey]

Let's just pretend the Thrilla didn't happen.

Frazier was shot before he fought Foreman. 29-year-old, 27-0-0, undisputed, undefeated, 4-1 starting favourite Heavyweight champion, Frazier.

A shell of himself, who would've put Foreman away were it not for the shoving, & the fact he was at death's door. Oh, & let's not forget everyone's favourite excuse --- the weight --- yes, that eight pounds which weighed on the champion like four volkswagons attached to his lower-gut. Dreams are beautiful.

I KNEW you were going to respond with the Thrilla. Frazier dug down and summoned up everything one last time for Manila, motivated no doubt by Ali's despicable treatment of him. Dundee was convinced that Frazier was a way over the hill fighter by 1975. He tested Frazier with Ellis again to check out Joe.

As for Jamaica, Frazier was definitely soft and unprepared, and well off his true peak of '69-'70.

The fact that big ox Foreman was allowed to get away with the push-offs to position Joe and keep him outside was deplorable, but hey, it happens.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Of course Frazier just miraculously, "dug down" for that one fight --- because this is a Rocky movie, right?

Frazier never gets the better of Foreman in any realistic view.

[hurlock]

so jimmy young didnt expose foreman after ali laid th blue print

[Goodnight, Irene]

so jimmy young didnt expose foreman after ali laid th blue print

Good one, because Young fought just like Ali when he beat Foreman, didn't he? back at you

[ThatOne]

so jimmy young didnt expose foreman after ali laid th blue print

Good one, because Young fought just like Ali when he beat Foreman, didn't he? back at you

Ali outmuscled Foreman, truth be told. Jimmy Young couldn't outmuscle Foreman in a million years.

[Goodnight, Irene]

They executed drastically different fightplans. It's as if this guy never even saw both bouts.

[BoxBuzz]

If Ali would have decided or perhaps better stated could have decided to become a fundamentalist boxer he might have been a KO artist based on the reviews of his strength from his opponents. He really had no problem in "muscling" dept with Foreman, vastly different than Young. But he rarely planted himself properly so KO's were elusive, but he was so strong that he kept people wary based on arm punches alone. And he did produce KO's without planting on occasion. Young with all his great fundamentals....not so much. It appeared the strength factor between them was pretty evident. Maybe that's why Young was choosing to place his face own outside the ring on occasion when they met.

[Goodnight, Irene]

If Ali would have decided or perhaps better stated could have decided to become a fundamentalist boxer he might have been a KO artist based on the reviews of his strength from his opponents. He really had no problem in "muscling" dept with Foreman, vastly different than Young. But he rarely planted himself properly so KO's were elusive, but he was so strong that he kept people wary based on arm punches alone. And he did produce KO's without planting on occasion. Young with all his great fundamentals....not so much. It appeared the strength factor between them was pretty evident. Maybe that's why Young was choosing to place his face own outside the ring on occasion when they met.

Can't see how Ali was ever gonna be a legit knockout puncher. What, the guy just needed to sit down a little more, & he turns into a knockout artist? Please, brah.

[BoxBuzz]

Well I wasn't intending to take it to the extreme, but strength and willingness to be disciplined are a start. He had one those two dynamics. Your point is probably best made evident when we saw Big George jump around the ring like a frog at the beginnig of the Toronto Five affair. Was he imagining himself to be Sugar Ray Robinson? He did tire of it quickly and went back to being the Mummy which served him pretty well.

[HomicideHenry]

Quarry is over-rated. Sure he was a few notches above Wepner and Stander, other 'white hopes' of the 1970's, but he was also a few notches below Ali, Foreman, Frazier and Norton. He would have been champion, maybe, in another era, but he wasn't the greatest HW to never win a heavyweight title, like some have claimed. IMO, Bonavena was a shy better than Quarry. Yet you hardly see him get a mention on the forum.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Quarry is over-rated. Sure he was a few notches above Wepner and Stander, other 'white hopes' of the 1970's, but he was also a few notches below Ali, Foreman, Frazier and Norton. He would have been champion, maybe, in another era, but he wasn't the greatest HW to never win a heavyweight title, like some have claimed. IMO, Bonavena was a shy better than Quarry. Yet you hardly see him get a mention on the forum.

True on all accounts. Too much love for Quarry, IMO.

[dempseyfire]

A few notches better than Stander? Is that a joke? Bonavena better? Did Ringo beat Lyle, Shavers, Patterson? (as well as a then hot Foster and Spencer along with under-rated fighters like Middleton and Orbillo)

I do agree Jerry wasn't the 'best heavyweight to never win a title' as some often tag him with, and yes he was below the elite group of early 70s heavyweights (Frazier, Ali, Foreman) but he was right behind.

[yancey]

Well I wasn't intending to take it to the extreme, but strength and willingness to be disciplined are a start. He had one those two dynamics. Your point is probably best made evident when we saw Big George jump around the ring like a frog at the beginnig of the Toronto Five affair. Was he imagining himself to be Sugar Ray Robinson? He did tire of it quickly and went back to being the Mummy which served him pretty well.

Man, I remember that Toronto deal.

That was sick, sick, sick.

Foreman made a complete idiot of himself jumping around like that, goaded on by Ali at ringside.

[harrygreb]

going back to joe's shape in jamaica; quite a bit was made about joe not getting a big sweat up before the bell. frazier at his best sweated like a madman the last few minutes before the start of a fight. against foreman this was not the case. the FOTC took too much outta him IMHO

[jmc617]

I am a huge Quarry fan and this is the way I see it.

Holyfield W10 Quarry 97-93, 96-94, 97-93
Quarry TKO5 Morrison
Bowe TKO8 Quarry
Wladimir Klitschko W10 Quarry 98-92, 99-91, 97-93
Surprisingly, I see Lewis vs Quarry stylistically a bit differently and think that he'd give Lewis more than a run for the money.
Lewis SD10 Quarry 96-94, 94-96, 97-93
Quarry KO6 Foreman (young), L10 Foreman (old)
Tyson TKO6 Quarry (Quarry had a tough Irish chin I don't see him being blown out in a round or two.)

A few others:

Ruddock TKO7 Quarry
Quarry W10 Mercer
Quarry D10 Moorer (if Moorer stays off those ropes)
Quarry TKO8 Bert Cooper
Vitali W10 Quarry (conditioning)
Quarry W10 Alex Stewart
Quarry W10 Bonecrusher
Holmes W10 Quarry



Very fun post! Here is a post with about twelve of Quarry's fights I made up a month or two ago.

http://www.boxpres.com/?p=4276

[yancey]

going back to joe's shape in jamaica; quite a bit was made about joe not getting a big sweat up before the bell. frazier at his best sweated like a madman the last few minutes before the start of a fight. against foreman this was not the case. the FOTC took too much outta him IMHO

"the FOTC took too much outta him"

Agreed.

In fact, Frazier had medical issues going into the FOTC and was definitely not the fighter he once was after the FOTC. Frazier's true peak was '69-'70, imo.

Swarmers like Frazier are apt to have short peaks and when they drop off their decline tends to be fairly rapid.

Big George didn't ever get real Smokin' Joe.

[ThatOne]

Foreman is just a bad, bad, bad...bad matchup for Frazier.

[The Great John L]

Quarry is over-rated. Sure he was a few notches above Wepner and Stander, other 'white hopes' of the 1970's, but he was also a few notches below Ali, Foreman, Frazier and Norton. He would have been champion, maybe, in another era, but he wasn't the greatest HW to never win a heavyweight title, like some have claimed. IMO, Bonavena was a shy better than Quarry. Yet you hardly see him get a mention on the forum.

A way past his best and out of shape Quarry gave Norton hell on a few weeks notice, and he also handled Lyle quite easily, so this post makes very little sense. Everybody always says Quarry was a notch below Ali, Frazier and Foreman, but they conveniently forget that Quarry handled Lyle quite easily, and Lyle and Foreman were pretty much equal, as evidenced by their life and death struggle. The evidence clearly supports Quarry being outclassed by Ali and Frazier, but hardly that Foreman would have handled him easily.

And Ringo gets quite a bit of mention on this forum, and most of it is positive.

[Goodnight, Irene]

""the FOTC took too much outta him"

Agreed.

In fact, Frazier had medical issues going into the FOTC and was definitely not the fighter he once was after the FOTC. Frazier's true peak was '69-'70, imo.

Swarmers like Frazier are apt to have short peaks and when they drop off their decline tends to be fairly rapid.

Big George didn't ever get real Smokin' Joe." - Yancey

Kind of how Frazier didn't ever get the real Ali, I guess.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Quarry is over-rated. Sure he was a few notches above Wepner and Stander, other 'white hopes' of the 1970's, but he was also a few notches below Ali, Foreman, Frazier and Norton. He would have been champion, maybe, in another era, but he wasn't the greatest HW to never win a heavyweight title, like some have claimed. IMO, Bonavena was a shy better than Quarry. Yet you hardly see him get a mention on the forum.

A way past his best and out of shape Quarry gave Norton hell on a few weeks notice, and he also handled Lyle quite easily, so this post makes very little sense. Everybody always says Quarry was a notch below Ali, Frazier and Foreman, but they conveniently forget that Quarry handled Lyle quite easily, and Lyle and Foreman were pretty much equal, as evidenced by their life and death struggle. The evidence clearly supports Quarry being outclassed by Ali and Frazier, but hardly that Foreman would have handled him easily.

And Ringo gets quite a bit of mention on this forum, and most of it is positive.

...A George Foreman with his head screwed on every which way but straight, returning from a 15-month lay-off & facing a top contender in Lyle in his first fight back. Hardly the same Foreman who won the title.

Facts feeling inconvenient today?

[harrygreb]

yeah c'mon a peak foreman destroys lyle.

[Goodnight, Irene]

yeah c'mon a peak foreman destroys lyle.

There's a chance it gets competitive, but I'm inclined to agree with you on the basis of Foreman's start. He was more confident &, subsequently, more aggressive at his best. He started slower against Lyle, & his self-belief took another hit near the end of round one, when Lyle wobbled him pretty handily. Also, take a look at their pre-fight staredown. My suspicion is that Lyle surprised Foreman right there. Got right up in his face, looked the fallen devil in the eye, & appeared the more tenacious of the two. Through the whole fight, I have the impression Lyle wants it more than does Foreman.

I think the most likely outcome is Foreman goes after him early & gets him outta there, if this fight occurs somewhere between Kingston & Kinshasa.

[John Galt]

When they fought, Foreman was 8 years younger than Lyle and Lyle had been stabbed and nearly killed earlier in his life so Foreman should have had an edge physically. Lyle probably had better boxing skills than Foreman. Both could hurt the other. Lyle had lost 2 of his previous 3 and had almost lost the other one prior to fighting Foreman. He had also taken some big punches and had been hurt badly in his previous fight. Lyle was probably seen as damaged goods and as an easy win for Foreman's comeback.

But, styles make fights. Foreman was a clubbing, wild swinger and would have always been in danger of catching a shot from the straighter punching, almost as big, Lyle. There is always the chance that Foreman would have gotten him early, but there is also the chance that Lyle would have gotten Foreman early. Two big punchers, anything could have happened. If the fight had happened between Frazier 1 and Ali, Foreman would have been fighting a younger Lyle who had not taken the damage that he had taken from Shavers. IMO, Foreman - Lyle is a fight that could go either way between about 1972-77.