Pacman - all time list?

[jamesmcdonnell]

Based on his achievements to date, where does he rank? I'd say he's got to be top 30, probably top 20. There's a hell of a lot of great fighters in history - but Manny achievements are pretty special. He's destroyed some legends, albeit in some cases slightly ageing ones.

After his destruction of Cotto, you'd have to give him a bit more credit for the Oscar win too I think - clearly, he does belong at welterweight.

If the mayweather fight happens, and he somehow pulls off the win, then I think we've gotta start talking about a top 10 place, that would be an incredible resume, Barrera, Morales, Marquez, DLH, Hatton, Cotto, Mayweather - that would be some list right there. Five of those guys are hall of famers without a doubt.

[whiskey]

Pacquiao is incredible.

I do believe Marquez beat him though, but styles makes fights - and Pacman's style seemingly defeats everyone.

I wont bet against him again.

[DG.]

Beat them in their prime! Jmm is better.

Pac is good but overrated Imo!

[stevieb_8006]

nowhere near top 20 yet IMO.

[ArtOfWar]

Definitely top 20. In fact it's not easy to name 10 boxers that are better than him in the modern era.

I don't like to rate guy's like Harry Greb, Sam Langford, Stanley Ketchel etc, because there is little to no footage on them. What footage there is shows their skills were primitive compared to modern era fighters. Boxing was still developing then, so it's hard to compare the two.

[Carbo]

I've been thinking about this, and I think he's the first to crack the top 20 since Leonard.

I think he's that good.

Let's think about this guy for a second.

He's won major titles at seven weight divisions. He is the only fighter ever to have achieved this. Which in itself is an amazing feat. Even given the old classic eight weights, he'd have done Flyweight (skipped bantam) Featherweight, Lightweight and Welterweight. That's four of the classics, spanning five. Unbelievable.

The level of his competition is better than any other fighter in the world at the moment. Since the end of 2003, he's fought Barrera twice, Morales thrice, Marquez twice, Oscar Larios, David Diaz, undefeated (I think) Jorge Solis, Oscar Dela Hoya, Ricky Hatton, and Miguel Cotto.

That, my friends is a murderers row. That's at least four hall of famers, and almost certainly seven. Ten fights against seven hall of famers in six years. Nobody can match that.

And he's won by KO in seven of those fights.

Miguel Cotto is one of the three best fighters in the toughest division in boxing, Welterweight. Pacquaio, a naturally smaller man has just demolished him.

In the fight before, he fought The Man at 140, a man who had only been beaten by the P4P number one, and had never been beaten at 140. Pacquiao, despite never having fought at the weight, obliterated him.

In the fight before that, he fought one of the best light middleweights in the world, albeit at weight drained ageing one, and battered him from pillar to post, forcing him to retire.

In the fight before that, he stepped up from super-feather to lightweight, fought for a title in his first fight, and turned the champion into a grotesque punchbag before winning by chilling KO.

This is amazing.

I think, right now, before Pacquaio faces anyone else, that he's cracked the top 20.

First since Leonard. If he beats Mayweather, he would make the top ten at least.

[WayoftheCass]

I've been thinking about this, and I think he's the first to crack the top 20 since Leonard.

I think he's that good.

Let's think about this guy for a second.

He's won major titles at seven weight divisions. He is the only fighter ever to have achieved this. Which in itself is an amazing feat. Even given the old classic eight weights, he'd have done Flyweight (skipped bantam) Featherweight, Lightweight and Welterweight. That's four of the classics, spanning five. Unbelievable.

The level of his competition is better than any other fighter in the world at the moment. Since the end of 2003, he's fought Barrera twice, Morales thrice, Marquez twice, Oscar Larios, David Diaz, undefeated (I think) Jorge Solis, Oscar Dela Hoya, Ricky Hatton, and Miguel Cotto.

That, my friends is a murderers row. That's at least four hall of famers, and almost certainly seven. Ten fights against seven hall of famers in six years. Nobody can match that.

And he's won by KO in seven of those fights.

Miguel Cotto is one of the three best fighters in the toughest division in boxing, Welterweight. Pacquaio, a naturally smaller man has just demolished him.

In the fight before, he fought The Man at 140, a man who had only been beaten by the P4P number one, and had never been beaten at 140. Pacquiao, despite never having fought at the weight, obliterated him.

In the fight before that, he fought one of the best light middleweights in the world, albeit at weight drained ageing one, and battered him from pillar to post, forcing him to retire.

In the fight before that, he stepped up from super-feather to lightweight, fought for a title in his first fight, and turned the champion into a grotesque punchbag before winning by chilling KO.

This is amazing.

I think, right now, before Pacquaio faces anyone else, that he's cracked the top 20.

First since Leonard. If he beats Mayweather, he would make the top ten at least.

Sound analysis. He's a fantastic fighter Carbo. Last night may have been his best yet.

[Matt W]

Having moved up so far in weight to be the puncher in the fight against one of the strongest welterweights out there is mightily impressive. And he has maintained his blazing speed with it. The guy is phenomenal.

[DIRT SUGAR]

Him and Mayweather to battle it out for mantle of best lower/middleweight fighter since Ray Leonard. Pacquaio the only fighter out there who I think can make Mayweather show he not only has the skill but heart to match the great fighters. He won't get away with pot-shotting at the Pacman.

[BARNEYKX]

I've been thinking about this, and I think he's the first to crack the top 20 since Leonard.

I think he's that good.

Let's think about this guy for a second.

He's won major titles at seven weight divisions. He is the only fighter ever to have achieved this. Which in itself is an amazing feat. Even given the old classic eight weights, he'd have done Flyweight (skipped bantam) Featherweight, Lightweight and Welterweight. That's four of the classics, spanning five. Unbelievable.

The level of his competition is better than any other fighter in the world at the moment. Since the end of 2003, he's fought Barrera twice, Morales thrice, Marquez twice, Oscar Larios, David Diaz, undefeated (I think) Jorge Solis, Oscar Dela Hoya, Ricky Hatton, and Miguel Cotto.

That, my friends is a murderers row. That's at least four hall of famers, and almost certainly seven. Ten fights against seven hall of famers in six years. Nobody can match that.

And he's won by KO in seven of those fights.

Miguel Cotto is one of the three best fighters in the toughest division in boxing, Welterweight. Pacquaio, a naturally smaller man has just demolished him.

In the fight before, he fought The Man at 140, a man who had only been beaten by the P4P number one, and had never been beaten at 140. Pacquiao, despite never having fought at the weight, obliterated him.

In the fight before that, he fought one of the best light middleweights in the world, albeit at weight drained ageing one, and battered him from pillar to post, forcing him to retire.

In the fight before that, he stepped up from super-feather to lightweight, fought for a title in his first fight, and turned the champion into a grotesque punchbag before winning by chilling KO.

This is amazing.

I think, right now, before Pacquaio faces anyone else, that he's cracked the top 20.

First since Leonard. If he beats Mayweather, he would make the top ten at least.

you hit the nail on the head there

[Rocky Balboa]

Having moved up so far in weight to be the puncher in the fight against one of the strongest welterweights out there is mightily impressive. And he has maintained his blazing speed with it. The guy is phenomenal.

Words can't describe hoow good the man is. I back Cotto to win & even though I was wrong, in no way did I think Manny would outclass him like he did.

I have thought long & hard today about Pacquiao's all time greatness. What I'm about to say may indeed be a bold statement, but we have to realise what we are witnessing in Manny Pacquiao.

IF he beats Mayweather, I say a strong case can be made that Pacman is the best fighter ever! Jimm Watt compared to Henry Armstrong so that speaks for itself imo!

[hitman09]

Definitely ahead of him IMO (not in order) are:
Robinson
Greb
Langford
Ali
Duran
Pep

Probably ahead of him IMO (not in order) are:
Armstrong
Leonard (Ray)
Monzon
Hagler

I can't make a convincing case for anyone else to be clearly ahead of him.

[Ezzard]

I think he has the best record in boxing since Duran... That includes Hagler, Leonard, Chavez, Whittaker, etc...

I'm not sure where I put him because there are so many greats to compare him with. BUT if I saw him in a top 20 I'd think that you could make a case for it.

Best fighter of the decade and that in itself is some achievement.

I've been tipping him to lose in his last 3 fights but each time I've been happy to be wrong. I think Floyd will be too big but I hope I'm wrong again.

[Jon Saxon]

I've been thinking about this, and I think he's the first to crack the top 20 since Leonard.


[/i].

Eh? Roy Jones he aint.

[SticknMove]

I remember making a case for Pacquaio being the most significant fighter in the game a few years ago when I first started to post here. Coming from Asia to the States, after being a former world Flyweight champ, and chasing down the elite fighters like Barrera and Morales whilst skipping weights to fight them is remarkable. But if someone had said to me that he would move further through the weights and take out some of the names he has, in the fashion that he has, then I would have said - you're nuts.

I think he has a creditable case to claim a place in any ATG top 50 list regardless of where he goes from here. A win against PBF may well catapult him into the top ten list imo.

But as James stated at the outset there have been so many great fighters in the past with a resume that reflects the context of their times. How do we really judge these things and along what lines?

One thing's for sure, Pacman's resume is incredible and the context in which he has achieved stands up against so many 'old time' greats.

PS. Great post Carbo

[Lenny]

I've been thinking about this, and I think he's the first to crack the top 20 since Leonard.


[/i].

Eh? Roy Jones he aint.

And thank fcuk for that

[chesh]

I've been thinking about this, and I think he's the first to crack the top 20 since Leonard.

I think he's that good.

Let's think about this guy for a second.

He's won major titles at seven weight divisions. He is the only fighter ever to have achieved this. Which in itself is an amazing feat. Even given the old classic eight weights, he'd have done Flyweight (skipped bantam) Featherweight, Lightweight and Welterweight. That's four of the classics, spanning five. Unbelievable.

The level of his competition is better than any other fighter in the world at the moment. Since the end of 2003, he's fought Barrera twice, Morales thrice, Marquez twice, Oscar Larios, David Diaz, undefeated (I think) Jorge Solis, Oscar Dela Hoya, Ricky Hatton, and Miguel Cotto.

That, my friends is a murderers row. That's at least four hall of famers, and almost certainly seven. Ten fights against seven hall of famers in six years. Nobody can match that.

And he's won by KO in seven of those fights.

Miguel Cotto is one of the three best fighters in the toughest division in boxing, Welterweight. Pacquaio, a naturally smaller man has just demolished him.

In the fight before, he fought The Man at 140, a man who had only been beaten by the P4P number one, and had never been beaten at 140. Pacquiao, despite never having fought at the weight, obliterated him.

In the fight before that, he fought one of the best light middleweights in the world, albeit at weight drained ageing one, and battered him from pillar to post, forcing him to retire.

In the fight before that, he stepped up from super-feather to lightweight, fought for a title in his first fight, and turned the champion into a grotesque punchbag before winning by chilling KO.

This is amazing.

I think, right now, before Pacquaio faces anyone else, that he's cracked the top 20.

First since Leonard. If he beats Mayweather, he would make the top ten at least.

What a quality post! It has to be quoted in full again. Very well said, Carbo.

[chesh]

I've been thinking about this, and I think he's the first to crack the top 20 since Leonard.


[/i].

Eh? Roy Jones he aint.

And thank fcuk for that

x 2! PBF's the new RJJ - in fact, he's an even greater cherrypicker!

[Cannibal]

Definitely the most improved fighter of all time.

[harrygreb]

i think he would do well against arguello - my benchmark for all time elite status - he is a top 20 shoe in IMHO.

[ourkid1984]

I think no matter how much footage people have seen of some of the great fighters pre 70's I don't think anyone can really say how good they were because it was completely different back then and boxers had more fights and they fought more fighters from their own country in their early career, the championship fights were longer so therefore many fights were slower paced.

Modern boxers have become more defensive and boxing off of the back foot and have had far less rounds to learn from, they have also had the advantage/disadvantage of video footage. Modern boxers have far more time in between fights but this can also be a disadvantage because of getting unfit and leading a celebratity lifestyle.

Pac Man, in my opinion is definetely in the top 5 of boxers in my life time and I can't see how many boxers could ever be much technically better than him. I've seen much footage of the greats like, Robinson, Ali, Duran, Leonard and Hagler and don't think they boxed better than Pac.

I just hope that he fights Mayweather next and really proves that he is the best of the decade.

[chesh]

I agree, Harry. I could see Arguello decisioning Pac at 126-135, but Pac edging it at 140. Strange, I know, as Pac, although naturally smaller than AA, has become stronger than ever at 140+, whereas Alexis lost a little something above lightweight. As you say on another thread, the fact we can seriously debate such a fight is evidence of Manny's greatness.

[NazNaci1]

With the risk of incurring the Mayweather fanboi's wrath, I would put him alot higher than Mayweather. Period.

Great fighter, who takes the risks to be great. Simple really.

[chesh]

Absolutely. Pac has dared to be great. Mayweather will not risk it.

[WildWaylon]

Definitely top 20. In fact it's not easy to name 10 boxers that are better than him in the modern era.

I don't like to rate guy's like Harry Greb, Sam Langford, Stanley Ketchel etc, because there is little to no footage on them. What footage there is shows their skills were primitive compared to modern era fighters. Boxing was still developing then, so it's hard to compare the two.

I have to totally agree, you cant compare Fangio with Schumacher, they were champions in different eras. How do you compare George Best with Duncan Edwards, I dont think there is any film footage of Edwards in existance, I may be wrong though. All sport has advanced and become more technical so comparisons are almost impossible. Formular 1 drivers didnt have play stations years ago to learn the circuits and improve their reflexes. Boxers didnt have video players so they could study their opponents. Everything has changed in every sport so todays sportsmen/women who are at the top, should be much better than those of the long distant past. Diet and training methods are now very sophisticated compared to the crude by comparison methods of the past. I would certainly put Pacman in the top 20 as I would Mayweather.