John L. Sullivan vs Jas. Corbett - primes

[raylawpc]

. . .who else was there really in the known world at that time who could have beaten Sullivan? Either there were no takers or everyone was old.

George "Old Chocolate" Godfrey or Peter Jackson ring any bells?

[HomicideHenry]

Gentleman Jim Corbett himself said that Peter Jackson's style was more tailor made for Sullivan. While its true Sullivan fought neither Godfrey or Jackson, it did seem apparent that at one time Sullivan was interested, or at least put on the act of willingness, to meet George Godfrey in the ring.

Besides that, Sullivan's prime years were long before Jackson ever showed up on American soil, so lets not condemn Sully quite yet. Jackson was willing to trade in the ring, Corbett was elusive. Sullivan would of had a better fighting chance, even passed his best, with Jackson than Corbett.

[ben geoghegan]

lol
Corbett wrote in his book that Jackson was the greatest fighter he had ever seen. And the old well-he-would-have-won line doesn't cut it. It wasn't Jackson dodging Sullivan. And Jackson took Godfrey apart. Granted he was an old man, 35. Or does the free pass for age only go with Sullivan? He (Sullivan) wasn't even 30 when Jackson first stepped foot on America soil. Besides the Corbett fight Sullivan was never really in a hard fight where he took damage.

[The Great John L]

lol
Corbett wrote in his book that Jackson was the greatest fighter he had ever seen. And the old well-he-would-have-won line doesn't cut it. It wasn't Jackson dodging Sullivan. And Jackson took Godfrey apart. Granted he was an old man, 35. Or does the free pass for age only go with Sullivan? He (Sullivan) wasn't even 30 when Jackson first stepped foot on America soil. Besides the Corbett fight Sullivan was never really in a hard fight where he took damage.

Of course that would be not counting his LPR fights, right? He did fight one gloved fight with a broken arm, and I believe it was his right.

Not really sure that Corbett ever saw Sullivan at his best. Sullivan was an alcoholic and probably was pretty much shot many years before NewOrleans. Donovan's opinion, based upon actual experiences with a younger, far less alcohol addled Sullivan are most likely much more relevant.

As far as Sullivan dodging anyone; he was a product of his times. In general, most Americans of that period were terribly racist. Most likely, if the posters on this forum were born in the same environment as Sullivan the majority of us would be racist also. Of course he should have fought Godfrey and Jackson, but it's hard for anyone who's done any real reading about Sullivan to believe that he dodged these guys. It's more likely that the social pressures of the time really wouldn't allow these fights to take place. Remember, the SUllivan era was shortly after the Civil War, and racial tolerance was not taught in any schools, and probably in very few households.

[ben geoghegan]

Oh you can count those also. He fought three LPR fights so what's the difference? He made quick work of Ryan, Mitchell ran for three hours and Kilrain was mauled for most of their fight. Sullivan never fought anyone who forced him to fight. Ryan was a novice and the other two gave away 20+ lbs to him. And the product of his times talk is nonsense since Jackson fought top white fighters for years. The city didn't burn down when Jackson beat McAuliffe or Cardiff. I go by a man's record not the excuses I can think up for him.

[The Great John L]

And the product of his times talk is nonsense since Jackson fought top white fighters for years. The city didn't burn down when Jackson beat McAuliffe or Cardiff.

Of course he did, as did many other black HWs through the years, but the list of white HW champions prior to Braddock that defended their titles against black HWs is a pretty short one, isn't it? You must have a great deal of disdain for Corbett, Fitzsimmons, Jeffries, Hart, Willard, Dempsey, Tunney, Sharkey, Schmeling, Baer and Carnera as well, all of whom didn't see fit to defend against a black HW either? And of course they didn't grow up during and shortly after the civil war. Oh that's right, it doesn't matter when and where someone grows up everybody should think and act the same way. I guess you skipped a lot of classes in college.

Oh and of course Sullivan had a walk in the park against Kilrain.

[HomicideHenry]

lol
Corbett wrote in his book that Jackson was the greatest fighter he had ever seen. And the old well-he-would-have-won line doesn't cut it. It wasn't Jackson dodging Sullivan. And Jackson took Godfrey apart. Granted he was an old man, 35. Or does the free pass for age only go with Sullivan? He (Sullivan) wasn't even 30 when Jackson first stepped foot on America soil. Besides the Corbett fight Sullivan was never really in a hard fight where he took damage.

By the time Jackson even stepped on American soil, Sullivan was already contemplating retirement. He was on stage as an actor following the bout with Kilrain for over three years. He was inactive, took no tune ups, was hog fat and spoiled by alcohaul. Yet, even in this condition, he lasted 21 rounds with Corbett. Now---the question I have for you is this, does this reflect as Sullivan being a bad fighter, or Corbett having a lack of killer instinct?

[ben geoghegan]

The excuses a person comes up with for not doing what they were supposed to do are numerous. Sullivan's own trainer said Sullivan at his best would have been in the fight for his life with Jackson.

[HomicideHenry]

The excuses a person comes up with for not doing what they were supposed to do are numerous. Sullivan's own trainer said Sullivan at his best would have been in the fight for his life with Jackson.

Source? For Ive never read such a thing. You cant say it was Muldoon who said it because following the Kilrain bout Sullivan and Muldoon went their seperate ways, as Sullivan didnt give Muldoon enough credit or enough money---years later when Sullivan contemplated a comeback against Fitzsimmons, he approached Muldoon to train him, and Muldoon told him to fornicate off.

[ben geoghegan]

lol

You are incorrect. He did train Sullivan for a six rounder vs Fitzsimmons after he won the title. From Muldoon's biography Solid Man, the conversation when Sullivan first approached him to train him again, 1897:

Muldoon: You know that I saved your title by keeping you out of a match with Jackson.
Sullivan: To hell with that! No Negro could have beaten me.Muldoon: You're wrong John and you know it. There was one negro who could.

And Sullivan began training after that.

[The Great John L]

lol

You are incorrect. He did train Sullivan for a six rounder vs Fitzsimmons after he won the title. From Muldoon's biography Solid Man, the conversation when Sullivan first approached him to train him again, 1897:

Muldoon: You know that I saved your title by keeping you out of a match with Jackson.
Sullivan: To hell with that! No Negro could have beaten me.Muldoon: You're wrong John and you know it. There was one negro who could.

And Sullivan began training after that.

Well there you go. That certainly proves that Jackson could have beaten a prime Sullivan.

[ben geoghegan]

That was never the point. I'm content to say no one knows but dream on lol. You don't dodge a boxer you are sure you can beat do you. Excuses are easy

[The Great John L]

That was never the point. I'm content to say no one knows but dream on lol. You don't dodge a boxer you are sure you can beat do you. Excuses are easy

Thank you once again for showing how completely clueless you are about not only boxing history, but the history of the US as well. As many do, you are merely content with keeping things stupid simple rather than making any effort to understand.

As I said before you must also believe that every other white HW champ prior to Braddock also ran from the challenges of black contenders merely because they feared losing? Of course, there can be no other explanation, right?

[Adamj1987]

i thin corbett had the beating of him all day long. from the few bits ive seen of both (sullivan looked in his 60's so its not the best refferance)
im going with boxer beats slugger in a similar fashion to corbet-jeffries except its a younger corbett with more stamina and wouldnt get cought cold