USA vs Other Countries - Why is U.S. Doing Badly?

[Sportssummary]

I am working on a story about how U.S. boxers do against boxers from other countries. The U.S. certainly has some outstanding boxers but they seem not to do well in international competition. I know there has been some discussion on the boards about this topic and I would like to ask for your help as I research this topic. I intend to speak with the Michigan fighters that have competed in the last year (I am based near Detroit) and will attempt to speak with someone at USAB but would appreciate insight from coaches and others that are better versed than myself in this area.

Also, if anyone has contact numbers for some of the boxers outside Michigan that they could share privately or ask the fighter to contact me it would be appreciated.

Sportssummary.com is generally focused more on Michigan boxing but this topic, I think, will be of interest to a wider audience and will benefit greatly from YOUR help. Thanks alot.
Kevin Walters
[email protected]
(734) 309-0528 Leave Msg.

[Dennis]

Kevin - I gave you many reasons on the phone. Here is the article about boxing in the schools in Great Britain.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... dance.html
It is one of many things helping boxing in Great Britain. Their funding is much higher too. They have the Sheffield training facility that is a world class facility. We need to do more things in the USA to advance our sport.

[Dennis]

http://www.uksport.gov.uk/news/gb_boxin ... lass_home/

Article about Britain's Sheffield Training Facility.

[Dennis]

Other countries often have boxers who stick around for 2 or more Olympic cycles.
Lennox Lewis - 2 Olympics, no medal in his 1st Olympics, but won gold in his 2nd Olympics
Roberto Cammarelle - 2 Olympics, Bronze in 2004 and Gold in 2008
Clemente Russo - 2 Olympics, no medal in 2004, Silver in 2008
Teofilo Stevenson - 3 Olympic gold medals
Felix Savon - 3 Olympic gold medals
Guillermo Rigondeaux - 2 Olympic gold medals

Does anyone think that Ali could have won more gold medals if he stayed amateur? Of course! If Andre Ward and Andre Dirrell each stayed amateur, they both would have won gold in 2008. If most of the boxers on the 2004 team stayed amateur through 2008, they would have won a handful of medals. Now we have 2 boxers from 2008 who are still amateur at the moment. If Warren and Hunter stick around until 2012 it would help Team USA.

[Dennis]

We need to properly prepare our boxers for international competitions and we don't. That means giving them training camps prior to the competition and plenty of developmental camps throughout the year. We are sending a young team of boxers (it would be even younger except the tournament is requiring that all boxers be born in 1990 or before) to Russia for the World Cup of Petroleum Countries and yet we aren't properly preparing them. The boxers are not having a training camp prior to leaving the U.S. They are going straight to Russia from their homes on December 12th. The competition starts on December 17th and continues through December 20th. I think they should have had a training camp at the OTC prior to leaving for Russia. We have to give them every chance to win.

[CoolU]

I think Hunter is going pro on 12/12

[JMac]

I think Hunter is going pro on 12/12

Word is he's not turning pro.

[JMac]

In my opinion, the reason the US is not doing well in international competitions is:

Egos, too many big egos.
There is no consistent style of coaching. If you look at the top amateur boxing countries, the boxers have similar styles. Most importantly is that they teach good fundamentals which is sorely lacking in US gyms. The boxers don’t learn range, what to throw when they are in close versus outside. I see too many boxers bending at the waist and not the knees. They punch in bunches which does no good with computer scoring.
It’s kind of like international basketball when the US pros kept getting beat by countries with better fundamentals. The US players thought they were the best and their skills would carry them to the gold. After being embarrassed a few time in Olympics, they got a coach that took them back to school to work on basic fundamentals.
In coaching clinics in the US, we never teach the coaches how to coach skills. It’s always about cardio, strength training and other basic stuff like that. Many coaches think they know everything and don’t want to learn something new. Many coaches are mainly looking down the road at the pros for their boxers and teach a style that is more conducive for that. But there are many young coaches that want to learn how to teach skills and we need to be able to teach them.
Successful countries like Russia, other former Soviet countries, Cuba and now Ireland and England have decided what style works best with the computer scoring used today and they teach a style that makes it easier to win along with sound fundamentals.
If USA wants to get back on the podium with gold medals, the coaches need to come together and decide how boxing will be taught. The US could learn a few things from the successful countries about how to run a high performance program and they need more money to run the program right. At the moment, USAB is in a major flux for a lot of reasons and money is a big issue. Many of the successful countries get funding from their government; pay their top amateurs good money to stay with the national team.
Another thing is that many of the top countries do not have Olympic trials. They select their national team and if you screw up, you are gone, no if and buts about it. No lawsuits. You get selected based on skills and you do the job or leave. If you do the job, it will be worth your while. I don’t know if the US could ever run their program like that but it might be a way of dealing with potential prim-a-donnas.

[BoxeoUltimo]

In my opinion, the reason the US is not doing well in international competitions is:

Egos, too many big egos.
There is no consistent style of coaching. If you look at the top amateur boxing countries, the boxers have similar styles. Most importantly is that they teach good fundamentals which is sorely lacking in US gyms. The boxers don’t learn range, what to throw when they are in close versus outside. I see too many boxers bending at the waist and not the knees. They punch in bunches which does no good with computer scoring.
It’s kind of like international basketball when the US pros kept getting beat by countries with better fundamentals. The US players thought they were the best and their skills would carry them to the gold. After being embarrassed a few time in Olympics, they got a coach that took them back to school to work on basic fundamentals.
In coaching clinics in the US, we never teach the coaches how to coach skills. It’s always about cardio, strength training and other basic stuff like that. Many coaches think they know everything and don’t want to learn something new. Many coaches are mainly looking down the road at the pros for their boxers and teach a style that is more conducive for that. But there are many young coaches that want to learn how to teach skills and we need to be able to teach them.
Successful countries like Russia, other former Soviet countries, Cuba and now Ireland and England have decided what style works best with the computer scoring used today and they teach a style that makes it easier to win along with sound fundamentals.
If USA wants to get back on the podium with gold medals, the coaches need to come together and decide how boxing will be taught. The US could learn a few things from the successful countries about how to run a high performance program and they need more money to run the program right. At the moment, USAB is in a major flux for a lot of reasons and money is a big issue. Many of the successful countries get funding from their government; pay their top amateurs good money to stay with the national team.
Another thing is that many of the top countries do not have Olympic trials. They select their national team and if you screw up, you are gone, no if and buts about it. No lawsuits. You get selected based on skills and you do the job or leave. If you do the job, it will be worth your while. I don’t know if the US could ever run their program like that but it might be a way of dealing with potential prim-a-donnas.

J Mac you got it right 100%, right down to the basics.. USAB needs to look at what other countries have done, adapt to the same style of training and coaching, to be considered a threat in boxing again. unless that happens, USA will keep on getting humiliated on an international level for years to come.

[Dennis]

Jim - yes, coaches in the U.S. do need to teach better basics, but there are some that do. I'm sure you do at the Naval Academy. USA Boxing needs to have more training camps for boxers and coaches.

I think that we have plenty of talent, but we do need to get more people to participate in amateur boxing in the U.S. We also need to retain our amateur stars. That means giving them adequate training stipends. It also needs to be performance based with incentive bonuses for success.

[miguel1]

there have ALWAYS been too many big egos in boxing and there will always continue to be I dont think that is the problem - we have talent, of that there is no doubt, the real problem was already touched on - the US boxers simply don't have enough experience in these competitions but hopefully attending more events will get them the much needed experience.

[Dennis]

Today there is more parity in the world amateur scene than ever before. It used to be USA, Russia, Cuba and a couple of European countries. Now there are a lot top European countries, a bunch of Asian countries and some African and South American countries with good boxing programs.

[hbomb2]

There are a great many of reasons that the USA is not doing as well as the potential:

1. Dedicated Discipline is lacking on all levels from administrators to coaches and athletes to officials.

2. National Philosophical Curriculum non-existence.

3. Lack of Unity - Selfishness all about my hood, me and money. Country is a distance 4th if that.

4. Politics, Politics and more Politics. (National and international)

5. Everyone has the solution. (even I) lol

6. Lack of leaders that are knowledgeable and upright.

7. Accountability and Responsibility lacking on all levels (see #1)

8. USA officiates different from international. (hurts Team USA in the end).

9. USA always deviate from it's High Performance Plan.

10. Athletes need more international training camps followed by competition.

These are a few and I can speak on each of them should you like.

[atlanta coach]

Its real simple to me. I have coached kids and seen kids that I thought were outstanding lil boxers, maybe not real aggressive but just liked to box and move. Take that 10 or 11 year old kid and (most likely) he will never be successful at Silver Gloves, Ringside etc. they will reward an aggressive boxer almost always. I have told a few of my kids be patient when you get older and get on the computer that will be your time. We dont box on the computer enough - its just that simple. All that "we need to coach different" is garbage.. I do agree the officiating needs to change. Cuba had an inexperienced team in Beijing and won 8 medals 4 of which were silver, I dont buy the whole staying amateur for 2 - 3 olympic games either.

[Dennis]

There are a great many of reasons that the USA is not doing as well as the potential:
8. USA officiates different from international. (hurts Team USA in the end).
9. USA always deviate from it's High Performance Plan.
10. Athletes need more international training camps followed by competition.

These are a few and I can speak on each of them should you like.

Ron - you are correct with your comments. I have complained about #8 for the longest time. Allow the holding and wrestling at the local and national level if that is how the refs are going to do it on the international level (which is what I have seen over the last few years at least). Judging - only count clean, scoring blows. If it is partially blocked or deflected don't count it. If a guy is aggressive, but doesn't land anything so what. He lost, plain and simple. #9 - I'm not sure what you are referring to, but I do know about some deviations. With the constant changes at USA Boxing I don't know how we will ever have any consistency. New people want to change things, but it takes time for those changes to have an effect. It seems like we just change for the sake of change sometimes. #10 - Yes, indeed. We also need more "national" training camps. Taking boxers out to CS, CO and having them work hard and learn how to adapt to international officiating and scoring will help. They can also learn better training techniques, nutrition and weight management. If you want our sport to grow, the boxers also need to learn how to work the media. Make people want to watch boxing. Many coaches need to learn these things as well.

[Dennis]

Its real simple to me. I have coached kids and seen kids that I thought were outstanding lil boxers, maybe not real aggressive but just liked to box and move. Take that 10 or 11 year old kid and (most likely) he will never be successful at Silver Gloves, Ringside etc. they will reward an aggressive boxer almost always. I have told a few of my kids be patient when you get older and get on the computer that will be your time. We dont box on the computer enough - its just that simple. All that "we need to coach different" is garbage.. I do agree the officiating needs to change. Cuba had an inexperienced team in Beijing and won 8 medals 4 of which were silver, I dont buy the whole staying amateur for 2 - 3 olympic games either.

I agree with you that rewarding aggression for the sake of aggression alone is just WRONG. Typically those boxers eat a lot of punches on the way in and will not be successful at the international level. We need to officiate and coach for success and we don't.
In regard to your other comment, Cuba's team wasn't that inexperienced. They lacked Olympic experience, but 5 of their boxers had won gold medals in the 2007 Pan Am Games. Their boxers have tons of experience, lots of local/national bouts and plenty of international bouts. Remember their #2 and #3 boxers routinely go up against their #1's which keeps the #1's honest and working hard to keep their top spots and the other guys bust their butts to try to take over the top spots. The USA makes mistakes in not having more competitions amongst their top guys.

[NYboxing]

Every four years, the U.S Olympic class turns pro, but three members of the 2008 remained amateur is a rarity as Rau'shee Warren, Raynell Williams and Michael Hunter opting to chase gold in 2012 -- hopefully. Turnover is one of main reasons in my opinion, but there is more.

I have been following U.S amateur scene religiously since the late nineties, but through magazines and books, private video collection, and youtube, I guess I go back to Cassius Clay bringing back Olympic gold in 1960. But let's fast forward to 1976 team - they got a lot of exposure on television and print print media along with experience fighting dual meets against worlds best countries.

- USA boxing doesn't hold enough dual meets stateside or abroad against historically two of the best amateur programs - Cuba and Russia. Let the arguments start, but the keyword is historically.

When was the last time USA fought the Cuban in a dual? USA boxing use to fight them at least twice every four-year Olympic period and as for Russians prior to last year for those who remember, when did Americans and Russian squads square off regularly?

- Media and television coverage. Who do u blame? Let's look at recent dual meets against England - no televison coverage and limited print media, if that. USA boxing website wasn't even updated timely. They do their best, but when I first started visiting their site, it was informative, "organized" and always updated. I know, I know, budget cuts etc, but still......

In the 1970s and 80s amateur boxing was on free television periodically, in the 90's, it was ESPN and in the late nineties, Fox Sports showed tons of amateur boxing. Over the last couple of years, nationally it has been more miss than hit. How expensive can production be? where are the sponsors/who is doing the marketing?

Why doesn't USA boxing sell events on dvd like they did in years past? I wouldn't mind paying a couple of dollars like I have done in the past. Anybody got a copy of ........ ???

Just examining the quantitative aspects that can be researched and there is also sociologically endeavors you can examine - poverty, better athletes rather play football, baseball or basketball than box -- good luck!

Say favoritism, blame the computers, coaching styles, boxers etc.... and I know times have changed over the years, but who would have loved to see any past U.S Olympic gold medalist remain amateur and seek a second gold medal four years later or to turn on the television on a Saturday afternoon and watch USA-Cuba dual meet, on tape delay the 2009 Nationals on espn2 with Lebron James going for his first U.S title in the super heavyweight division?

The debate continues.............. why USA amateur boxing continues to struggles

[Sportssummary]

Dennis, you gave me alot of information and the article links are helpful too. I will be sending messages to several of the other posters next for more information. Thanks for all the great comments. Keep them coming.

[boxfanner]

Dennis, that is a ridiculous solution. When you say, "Allow the holding and wrestling at the local and national level", that would make boring, boring, fights. If you allow that, then the less skilled boxers will get more decisions by grabbing, holding, and wrestling after throwing a punch or two, not allowing the more skilled opponent to get his punches off. The "RULES" are there for a reason. That is why many opponents of Raushee Warren were DQ'ed. They held and held, were warned, deducted points, and then disqualified. That was correct. Don't rob Raushee of a ko that he has earned or deserves just because some idiot doesn't want to fight. If you don't want to box, there is always UFC. Just because a few incompetent or crooked international officials allow it, does not mean that ALL international officials will allow the holding and wrestling. That is why there are sports called wrestling, UFC, MMA, etc. You are barking up the wrong tree man.

[Dennis]

If a boxer learns how to deal with other boxers trying to hold and muscle him in the inside for years, he will learn how to handle the situation. By not preparing our boxers for that situation until they are in it we are doing them a great disservice. Watch how the USA boxers will look to the referee for help during international bouts. If they were accustomed to it, they wouldn't be looking for help. They would break free and punch or use good footwork to keep it from happening.

If you call preparation "ridiculous", then so be it. Let Team USA be totally ridiculous!!!

[boxfanner]

With all due respect, you just don't get it! I NEVER said 'don't prepare fighters for these situations'. Of course you have to prepare your fighters for ALL situations, including holding. I tell my fighters, expect the unexpected. Low blows are illegal, yet fighters still hit low, and you prepare fighters to be cautious of low blows. Hitting after the ref says "BREAK" is illegal - (as well as hitting after the bell) but you still have dirty fighters in this sport, and you prepare your fighter by telling him among other things, "never look away from your opponent and keep your hands up, etc. etc., and yes, you prepare your fighters against guys that hold. Practice dealing with guys that hold a lot in sparring. What I am saying is that if you ALLOW holding, the floodgates would then open and almost everyone will hold.

[JMac]

I think what Dennis is saying and he can correct me if I am wrong but US officials are too strict with the rules. It's two cautions and bam, warning. Right or wrong, international officials tend to give more cautions for non harm fouls like holding and let more rough stuff go on. US boxers need to be ready for that and not look to the ref for help that is not coming like Dennis said. Ref's in the US can use commands like "break" more often with holding instead of giving warnings and let them work out of clinches. They don't need to be so strict on the rules, especially non harm fouls.
AIBA needs to make many changes to amateur boxing if they want to keep the few fans that are still left. Getting rid of open scoring and how the current scoring system works is one area that needs changes and how the officials are evaluated along with letting the rough stuff go.

[boxfanner]

That makes sense, and is more articulate

[hbomb2]

Getting rid of open scoring and how the current scoring system works is one area that needs changes and how the officials are evaluated along with letting the rough stuff go.

I disagree with getting rid of the open scoring. At the 2009 AIBA World Championships the scores were dispalyed and the new sustem not display the score but each individual judges score to the audience. I think that is good and instead of cpmplaining about the scoring system as we have done for the past 18 years, master the system and get it in the grass root gyms. I went to this years PALS and judging was atrocious, I even stood near an official the put her fingers in her mouth to whistle and cheer a boxer from her LBC. These are the things that are killing us.

[Dennis]

Ron - The officiating needs to become more consistent from the grass roots level all the way up to the Olympic level. Since we can't change the international rules and how the officials enforce those rules, we will have to change what we can control which is at the local and national levels. When I say officiating, I am talking about the judges and the referees and how both carry out their responsibilities.