Oscar and Tito: Were they that good?

[elmersalsa]

The same could be said for Serrano just look at their resume; Serrano defended his WBA title around 8 times in his opponents’ backyards. Ecuador, Venezuela (2x), Japan (3x), South Africa, and Chile. Big deal, like I said Serrano’s career is very similar to Pedroza. Both lost to mediocre fighters, something that Tito and Oscar never did. Tito and Oscar are 2 levels, maybe 3 above Pedroza and Serrano.

Totally disagree in that one. Serrano did it in 2 reigns. Pedroza in one for 7 long years and 20 title defenses. Plus, none of the so called ELITE FIGHTERS of his day, Salvador Sanchez, Azumah Nelson, Danny Lopez nor Wilfredo Gomez wanted no piece of him. He was too good, too slick, and durable. A champion that knew lots of tricks. Tito nor Oscar COULD NEVER BE IN PEDROZA'S CLASS. I don't know what your are talking about. Have you seen the great Eusebio Pedroza fight?

Pedroza, in his weight class, is considered a top 10 featherweight all-time. One of the original weight classes in boxing's rich history. Tito? I don't see him with the very best welterweights. Maybe between 15th and 20th place in welterweight rankings. De La Hoya? Only ranked to me in a weak class like the jr middleweights, were the history is not so great.

Tito and Oscar were sooooo OVERRATED in an era of any body could be a star or champion. Big deal.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Oscar was better than Tito, despite the loss to him. Both take a backseat to Mosley though.

I don’t see why DLH has to take a back seat to Mosley. Prime for Prime the first fight between them was as close as it gets and the second it was a clear win by DLH. He was robbed on that fight. DLH has some solid wins on his resume (Paez, Molina, Whitaker, Chavez, Quartey, Carr, and Vargas) and his fight vs Mayweather was a very close one, I truly believe that a prime DLH would’ve defeated Mayweather.

Mosley has solid wins against (Molina, De La Hoya, Vargas, and maybe Margarito)

I think DLH resume is better with more accomplishments.

It's quite a reasonable debate. I think De La Hoya has more strings to his bow, & I agree they are 1-1 against each other. You can argue either way, I'd fancy De La Hoya, but not by that much, & consider --- Mosley's career is yet to play out in its entirety. We'll see if anything interesting happens between now & the time he decides to hang 'em up.

[allworld80]

Oscar was better than Tito, despite the loss to him. Both take a backseat to Mosley though.

I don’t see why DLH has to take a back seat to Mosley. Prime for Prime the first fight between them was as close as it gets and the second it was a clear win by DLH. He was robbed on that fight. DLH has some solid wins on his resume (Paez, Molina, Whitaker, Chavez, Quartey, Carr, and Vargas) and his fight vs Mayweather was a very close one, I truly believe that a prime DLH would’ve defeated Mayweather.

Mosley has solid wins against (Molina, De La Hoya, Vargas, and maybe Margarito)

I think DLH resume is better with more accomplishments.

Clear win for DLH in the 2nd fight? I cannot concur on that one. Close fight in which Mosley landed the harder, more effective punches. You can make arguments for both as to who has had the better career, bigger wins, more talented...I happen to think Mosley gets the edge.

[Idisagree]

The same could be said for Serrano just look at their resume; Serrano defended his WBA title around 8 times in his opponents’ backyards. Ecuador, Venezuela (2x), Japan (3x), South Africa, and Chile. Big deal, like I said Serrano’s career is very similar to Pedroza. Both lost to mediocre fighters, something that Tito and Oscar never did. Tito and Oscar are 2 levels, maybe 3 above Pedroza and Serrano.

Totally disagree in that one. Serrano did it in 2 reigns. Pedroza in one for 7 long years and 20 title defenses. Plus, none of the so called ELITE FIGHTERS of his day, Salvador Sanchez, Azumah Nelson, Danny Lopez nor Wilfredo Gomez wanted no piece of him. He was too good, too slick, and durable. A champion that knew lots of tricks. Tito nor Oscar COULD NEVER BE IN PEDROZA'S CLASS. I don't know what your are talking about. Have you seen the great Eusebio Pedroza fight?

Pedroza, in his weight class, is considered a top 10 featherweight all-time. One of the original weight classes in boxing's rich history. Tito? I don't see him with the very best welterweights. Maybe between 15th and 20th place in welterweight rankings. De La Hoya? Only ranked to me in a weak class like the jr middleweights, were the history is not so great.

Tito and Oscar were sooooo OVERRATED in an era of any body could be a star or champion. Big deal.

Yea right, Pedroza only fought bums or way past their prime like Olivares. Pedroza considered a top 10 in featherweight in his class, not in my book. There are plenty of fighters that I will rank ahead of him. He makes a top 20, possibly but no way top ten. Just look at his resume. Even Trinidad at 147 fought better competition than Pedroza at feather. I supposed if Trinidad would’ve stayed at 147 destroying bums he would’ve been considered better than Robinson, according to your opinion. The quality of the fighter is often measure by who he fought and Pedroza did not fight anyone of consequence. Olivares is the best name in his resume but he was way past his prime. Pedroza was the one doing the ducking not the other way around. Look at the others resumes they were fighting each other, and Pedroza was hand picking his opponents. Like I said before Pedroza’s career is very similar to that of Serrano.
Salvador Sanchez, Willie Pep, Sandy Sadler, Marco A. Barrera, Pacquiao, Saldivar, Ramos, Kid Chocolate, Morales, Mcgovern, were better fighters than Pedroza and a few others could easily be ranked ahead of Pedroza.
You claim that Tito and Oscar were sooooooooo overrated, but what that makes of Pedroza’s career that fought way lesser competition, and that only stayed on one weight class hand picking bum to fight? Then Pedroza’s career is even more overrated. You can’t have it both ways no matter how you look at it.

[elmersalsa]

Yea right, Pedroza only fought bums or way past their prime like Olivares. Pedroza considered a top 10 in featherweight in his class, not in my book. There are plenty of fighters that I will rank ahead of him. He makes a top 20, possibly but no way top ten. Just look at his resume. Even Trinidad at 147 fought better competition than Pedroza at feather. I supposed if Trinidad would’ve stayed at 147 destroying bums he would’ve been considered better than Robinson, according to your opinion. The quality of the fighter is often measure by who he fought and Pedroza did not fight anyone of consequence. Olivares is the best name in his resume but he was way past his prime. Pedroza was the one doing the ducking not the other way around. Look at the others resumes they were fighting each other, and Pedroza was hand picking his opponents. Like I said before Pedroza’s career is very similar to that of Serrano.
Salvador Sanchez, Willie Pep, Sandy Sadler, Marco A. Barrera, Pacquiao, Saldivar, Ramos, Kid Chocolate, Morales, Mcgovern, were better fighters than Pedroza and a few others could easily be ranked ahead of Pedroza.
You claim that Tito and Oscar were sooooooooo overrated, but what that makes of Pedroza’s career that fought way lesser competition, and that only stayed on one weight class hand picking bum to fight? Then Pedroza’s career is even more overrated. You can’t have it both ways no matter how you look at it.

It seems to me that you have never seen Eusebio Pedroza fight. That is the first thing I see. Second, You said that Tito at welter had better opponents than Pedroza? I got to question that. Rocky Lockdrige, Patrick Ford, and Juan LaPorte were excellent challengers. Pedroza beat Lockdrige twice, one time in Lockridge's backyard being behind on points. Lockridge became world champion after that. Some people said that he got robbed in a fight with the great Julio Cesar Chavez. I have never seen the fight, but it was controversial decision in favor of Chavez in his prime. LaPorte beat Lockridge and also became world champion. He gave the great Salvador Sanchez and Chavez a run for their money when they fought him. I BELIEVE that Ford got ROBBED in the fight with Sanchez. Pedroza not only beat Ford, he knocked him out.

Pedroza was not Ray Leonard in handpicking opponents. He openly shouted for a match with Sanchez. He openly shouted for a match with the great Azumah Nelson. I saw it on TV. He called them. I considered Pedroza as one of the MUST DUCKED FIGHTERS EVER. He is reminding me of Mike McCallum, Aaron Pryor, Shane Mosley, Antonio Margarito, Paul Williams and Celestino Caballero, now. Nobody wanted a piece of him. Sanchez opted to fight the great Alexis Arguello, a fighter that was slowing down in his abilities, than to face a tough and skilled opponent like Pedroza to see who was the real featherweight world champion. He was already planning a fight with Arguello instead before he died.

Pedroza is an all-time top 10 great featherweight no matter how you look at it. His record speaks for itself. He was champion for 7 years, made 20 title defenses, 10 of them in opponents backyards. Nobody has ever come close in that. That is a WORLD RECORD, my man. To defend a title in some opponent backyard is very hard. It requires a lot of concentration and preparation. Pedroza did it excellently.

You could say that Sanchez was a better champion because of his resume against top notch opposition that Pedroza did not had the opportunity to show his skills against the very best. I could live with that. But Sanchez NEVER PROVED IT IN THE RING for a fight with Pedroza. HE NEVER PROVED IT. The great Roberto Duran proved it with Esteban De Jesus. Leonard proved it against the great Thomas Hearns. The great Muhammad Ali proved it against Ernie Terrell. The great Joe Frazier proved it against Ali. And the great Carlos Monzon proved it against Rodrigo Valdez. The great Ezzard Charles proved it with the great Joe Louis. You see the point?

You could say that this featherweight and that other featherweight were better than Pedroza. I could live with that. But Tito nor Oscar cannot be seen in the top 10 all-time in none of boxing's ORIGINAL WEIGHT CLASSES. If they are not featured in the top 10 in any of boxing's ORIGINAL weight classes, I cannot see them in the list of 100 greatest pound per pound fighters, either.

[Goodnight, Irene]

De La Hoya, on talent more than accomplishment, might sneak within the top-10 Jr. Welterweights of all-time, & Trinidad likewise at Jr. Middle, but they're a sizeable if, I admit. Of course, those aren't traditional divisions. Both he & Trinidad are top twenty all-timers at Welterweight, & I know you, Elmer, would consider top-twenty all-time in a division (especially one as deep as Welter) impressive if we were talking about anyone else.

Pedroza was a great fighter, just a question of how great. Quite arguably, neither De La Hoya nor Trinidad are top-ten all-time within an original weightclass. Btw, of all the opponents he faced, you picked Terrell for Ali to make your point? Strange, with Liston, Frazier & Foreman all in his victims' column.

[Martin Sosa Cameron]

Were these guys were that good as some people in this forum believe?

What are your thoughts?

In my view, they were not as good as some people think. They don't make the cut of the 100 greatest fighters pound per pound.

This is a very good question and an excellent observation of a good boy

[Datsue]

They were largely fun to watch. Sometimes this 'how good were/are they' stuff is tedious. I like watching grown men beat each other up, and I prefer it if they are about as good as eachother when they fight, so it's not unfair. But all this endless evaluation gets so bitter I'm not convinced it's worth the effort.

/thread.

Actually, make that "/BOTP forum".

I admit I'm only here 'cos sometimes I get nostalgic. However, listening to the endless poisonous chuntering that accompanies our nostalgia (& even worse, the vitriol that guys fight with in defence of their particular favourite fighter) can get tiring very quickly.

[elmersalsa]

De La Hoya, on talent more than accomplishment, might sneak within the top-10 Jr. Welterweights of all-time, & Trinidad likewise at Jr. Middle, but they're a sizeable if, I admit. Of course, those aren't traditional divisions. Both he & Trinidad are top twenty all-timers at Welterweight, & I know you, Elmer, would consider top-twenty all-time in a division (especially one as deep as Welter) impressive if we were talking about anyone else.

Pedroza was a great fighter, just a question of how great. Quite arguably, neither De La Hoya nor Trinidad are top-ten all-time within an original weightclass. Btw, of all the opponents he faced, you picked Terrell for Ali to make your point? Strange, with Liston, Frazier & Foreman all in his victims' column.

How can DLH be a top 140 pounder Goodnight Irene? He only had 3 fights in that weight class, I believe. DLH best weight was at lightweight and jr middleweight. He does not make the list of the 20 top all time lightweights. I see him a top 154-pounder because that weight division is a young class. And even at that, Pedroza was a better featherweight than DLH in any weight class DLH was in.

Tito at WW was sensational. Same when he fought at jr middleweight, but I cannot fantazise Tito being a top 10 welterweight. Maybe from position 15 to 20 I could see him there in that class. At jr middle, he probably makes the top 10 all time just like Oscar because that division is very young.

I picked Ali win over Terrell to make the point that Salvador Sanchez was considered the best featherweight of his time ON PAPER, but he NEVER PROVED IT IN THE RING WITH PEDROZA. At least Ali proved it with Terrell.

[allworld80]

How can DLH be a top 140 pounder Goodnight Irene? He only had 3 fights in that weight class, I believe.

You are correct. However what G,I many be implying, as I believe he has done before, is that that may(could) have been Oscar's best weight had he chose to stick around. But we all know 140 was a dangerous place back then, and no place to linger for too long. :P

[Idisagree]

It seems to me that you have never seen Eusebio Pedroza fight. That is the first thing I see. Second, You said that Tito at welter had better opponents than Pedroza? I got to question that. Rocky Lockdrige, Patrick Ford, and Juan LaPorte were excellent challengers. Pedroza beat Lockdrige twice, one time in Lockridge's backyard being behind on points. Lockridge became world champion after that. Some people said that he got robbed in a fight with the great Julio Cesar Chavez. I have never seen the fight, but it was controversial decision in favor of Chavez in his prime. LaPorte beat Lockridge and also became world champion. He gave the great Salvador Sanchez and Chavez a run for their money when they fought him. I BELIEVE that Ford got ROBBED in the fight with Sanchez. Pedroza not only beat Ford, he knocked him out.

Pedroza was not Ray Leonard in handpicking opponents. He openly shouted for a match with Sanchez. He openly shouted for a match with the great Azumah Nelson. I saw it on TV. He called them. I considered Pedroza as one of the MUST DUCKED FIGHTERS EVER. He is reminding me of Mike McCallum, Aaron Pryor, Shane Mosley, Antonio Margarito, Paul Williams and Celestino Caballero, now. Nobody wanted a piece of him. Sanchez opted to fight the great Alexis Arguello, a fighter that was slowing down in his abilities, than to face a tough and skilled opponent like Pedroza to see who was the real featherweight world champion. He was already planning a fight with Arguello instead before he died.

Pedroza is an all-time top 10 great featherweight no matter how you look at it. His record speaks for itself. He was champion for 7 years, made 20 title defenses, 10 of them in opponents backyards. Nobody has ever come close in that. That is a WORLD RECORD, my man. To defend a title in some opponent backyard is very hard. It requires a lot of concentration and preparation. Pedroza did it excellently.

You could say that Sanchez was a better champion because of his resume against top notch opposition that Pedroza did not had the opportunity to show his skills against the very best. I could live with that. But Sanchez NEVER PROVED IT IN THE RING for a fight with Pedroza. HE NEVER PROVED IT. The great Roberto Duran proved it with Esteban De Jesus. Leonard proved it against the great Thomas Hearns. The great Muhammad Ali proved it against Ernie Terrell. The great Joe Frazier proved it against Ali. And the great Carlos Monzon proved it against Rodrigo Valdez. The great Ezzard Charles proved it with the great Joe Louis. You see the point?

You could say that this featherweight and that other featherweight were better than Pedroza. I could live with that. But Tito nor Oscar cannot be seen in the top 10 all-time in none of boxing's ORIGINAL WEIGHT CLASSES. If they are not featured in the top 10 in any of boxing's ORIGINAL weight classes, I cannot see them in the list of 100 greatest pound per pound fighters, either.

This is all I have to say about this, Pedroza could’ve fought any of the following but he never did.

Danny Lopez, Salvador Sanchez, Azuma Nelson, Wilfredo Gomez, Ruben Castillo, Alexis Arguello, Alfredo Escalera, Bobby Chacon, Rafael Limon, Hector Camacho, and even Samuel Serrano. Plenty to pick from and just look at his resume. He could’ve easily moved up to 130 and he didn’t.

I wonder why?

And you said that Sanchez never proved himself against Pedroza, how about Pedroza never prove himself against any legit fighter?

The most ducked fighter? He did all the ducking if you ask me.

[Goodnight, Irene]

How can DLH be a top 140 pounder Goodnight Irene? He only had 3 fights in that weight class, I believe.

You are correct. However what G,I many be implying, as I believe he has done before, is that that may(could) have been Oscar's best weight had he chose to stick around. But we all know 140 was a dangerous place back then, and no place to linger for too long. :P

Yes...until the immortal Vince Phillips cleared the danger, albeit, temporarily

[elmersalsa]

It seems to me that you have never seen Eusebio Pedroza fight. That is the first thing I see. Second, You said that Tito at welter had better opponents than Pedroza? I got to question that. Rocky Lockdrige, Patrick Ford, and Juan LaPorte were excellent challengers. Pedroza beat Lockdrige twice, one time in Lockridge's backyard being behind on points. Lockridge became world champion after that. Some people said that he got robbed in a fight with the great Julio Cesar Chavez. I have never seen the fight, but it was controversial decision in favor of Chavez in his prime. LaPorte beat Lockridge and also became world champion. He gave the great Salvador Sanchez and Chavez a run for their money when they fought him. I BELIEVE that Ford got ROBBED in the fight with Sanchez. Pedroza not only beat Ford, he knocked him out.

Pedroza was not Ray Leonard in handpicking opponents. He openly shouted for a match with Sanchez. He openly shouted for a match with the great Azumah Nelson. I saw it on TV. He called them. I considered Pedroza as one of the MUST DUCKED FIGHTERS EVER. He is reminding me of Mike McCallum, Aaron Pryor, Shane Mosley, Antonio Margarito, Paul Williams and Celestino Caballero, now. Nobody wanted a piece of him. Sanchez opted to fight the great Alexis Arguello, a fighter that was slowing down in his abilities, than to face a tough and skilled opponent like Pedroza to see who was the real featherweight world champion. He was already planning a fight with Arguello instead before he died.

Pedroza is an all-time top 10 great featherweight no matter how you look at it. His record speaks for itself. He was champion for 7 years, made 20 title defenses, 10 of them in opponents backyards. Nobody has ever come close in that. That is a WORLD RECORD, my man. To defend a title in some opponent backyard is very hard. It requires a lot of concentration and preparation. Pedroza did it excellently.

You could say that Sanchez was a better champion because of his resume against top notch opposition that Pedroza did not had the opportunity to show his skills against the very best. I could live with that. But Sanchez NEVER PROVED IT IN THE RING for a fight with Pedroza. HE NEVER PROVED IT. The great Roberto Duran proved it with Esteban De Jesus. Leonard proved it against the great Thomas Hearns. The great Muhammad Ali proved it against Ernie Terrell. The great Joe Frazier proved it against Ali. And the great Carlos Monzon proved it against Rodrigo Valdez. The great Ezzard Charles proved it with the great Joe Louis. You see the point?

You could say that this featherweight and that other featherweight were better than Pedroza. I could live with that. But Tito nor Oscar cannot be seen in the top 10 all-time in none of boxing's ORIGINAL WEIGHT CLASSES. If they are not featured in the top 10 in any of boxing's ORIGINAL weight classes, I cannot see them in the list of 100 greatest pound per pound fighters, either.

This is all I have to say about this, Pedroza could’ve fought any of the following but he never did.

Danny Lopez, Salvador Sanchez, Azuma Nelson, Wilfredo Gomez, Ruben Castillo, Alexis Arguello, Alfredo Escalera, Bobby Chacon, Rafael Limon, Hector Camacho, and even Samuel Serrano. Plenty to pick from and just look at his resume. He could’ve easily moved up to 130 and he didn’t.

I wonder why?

And you said that Sanchez never proved himself against Pedroza, how about Pedroza never prove himself against any legit fighter?

The most ducked fighter? He did all the ducking if you ask me.

Like I said, it seems to me that you have never seen Pedroza fight. Now I am starting to believe that you was not even born back then. You never saw how publicly Pedroza asked for a fight with Sanchez for the undisputed feather title. Sanchez was the "best" on paper, because he had better names in his record than Pedroza, BUT HE NEVER PROVED IT IN THE RING with the Panamanian. Pedroza also asked for a fight against Nelson and Nelson never wanted the fight. He even was planning for a fight with Ray "Boom Boom" Mancini, but the fight never materialized.

Gomez also said that he would give Pedroza a chance for his WBA jr lightweight title when he beat Rocky Lockridge, a Pedroza victim. What happened? Gomez never was true to his word. He never gave Pedroza a title shot. And if Pedroza was not that good, then why Lopez, Sanchez, Gomez nor Nelson went to challenge him? I asked that question myself....I wonder why.

Something to me smells like THEY DUCKED HIM. BIG TIME.