Classic American West Coast Boxing

[dagosd2000]

Sonny Liston

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgrwGNLTUH4

Sonny Liston flat on his face

[dagosd2000]

Sonny Liston

[dagosd2000]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wfp04S8QrAk

Stairway To The Stars

Johnny Hartman

[dagosd2000]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecrE80rnjhw

My One And Only Love

Johnny Hartman and John Coltrane

[Rick Farris]

Sonny Liston

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgrwGNLTUH4

Sonny Liston flat on his face

That's what you call a "last fight."
Boxing history reveals a lot of this.

[dagosd2000]

Rick
My idol,Mantequilla Napoles,standing stoicly in the corner of the ring with his eyes shredded into ribbons after he lost the title to Stracey. You can play that tape over and over again. It always ends the same. :(

[dagosd2000]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obMrbBbvy00

When Sunny Gets Blue

Nat"King"Cole

[Chuck1052]

Guys, a virus overtook my computer last Friday and the computer shop was shut down for Thanksgiving weekend. That meant I had to which to take my computer to the shop on Monday and didn't get it back until today.

In regards to Alice McGrath, I saw her speak once at Ventura College. There was a lot of coverage about her in the Ventura County Star over the last few days.

Bob Keene, who played a part in the careers of Ritchie Valens, Bobby Fuller and Sam Cooke, must've been star-crossed because each of the three mentioned recording artists died at a very early age.

- Chuck Johnston

[kikibalt]

Bob Keene, who played a part in the careers of Ritchie Valens, Bobby Fuller and Sam Cooke, must've been star-crossed because each of the three mentioned recording artists died at a very early age.

- Chuck Johnston

Yeah! Chuck, but Bob Keene lived a long life....

[kikibalt]

Guys, a virus overtook my computer last Friday and the computer shop was shut down for Thanksgiving weekend. That meant I had to which to take my computer to the shop on Monday and didn't get it back until today.

- Chuck Johnston

Chuck...You have to stay away from the porn sites....

[Rick Farris]

Rick
My idol,Mantequilla Napoles,standing stoicly in the corner of the ring with his eyes shredded into ribbons after he lost the title to Stracey. You can play that tape over and over again. It always ends the same. :(

Very true, Rog. I was never a Roy Jones fan. I was always somebody who criticized Jones and, more so, his fans, for putting so much faith in a "paper lion".
One thing I never expected, was to see Jones forced into fighting long past his best years. Today, in almost every fight, it's Roy's blood on the canvas.
I rarely buy or read The Ring Magazine, however, on Sunday I passed bya news stand and couldn't resist. I read thru it and found some interesting stuff.
One piece that caught me was a story of the Roy Jones-Joe Calzaghe fight. There was a photo of Jones as a right cross landed on his jaw.
Jone's face was distorted beyond recognition, his head turned backwards facing behind him. It rates right up with that Marciano-Walcott pic of Jersey Joe's distorted face.
Today, well into his 40's, he's now just a re-tread. And he's still avoiding a rematch with 47-year-old Bernard Hopkins. Soon he will be walking on his heels.
Archie Moore never walked on his heels, even in his 80's, after nearly thirty years of fighting. But then Archie was a true "all-time great".

[kikibalt]

In regards to Alice McGrath, I saw her speak once at Ventura College. There was a lot of coverage about her in the Ventura County Star over the last few days.

- Chuck Johnston

Chuck...I seen Alice McGrath in 1978 at the Mark Taper Theater, now Mark Taper Forum, when I went to see the play "Zoot Suit", she was young then, hell, we were all young then....

[Randyman]

Mel Epstein on Dempsey . . .


For the life of me, I wish I could remember Mel Epstein's exact words when referring to Jack Dempsey.
Mel talked a lot about Dempsey, almost as much as he did his own fighter, Young Firpo.
He was in one of Dempsey's training camps. He spoke of Doc Kearns, and of Dempsey's trainer, Teddy Hayes.
He was a part of the moment, Mel was. His respect for Jack Dempsey had no equal. Mel spoke of Dempsey with God-like respect.

"They think this Ali is fast? You shoulda seen Dempsey! Dempsey was fast, and he'd take your head off."
Mel talked of Kearns and a few of his antics relating to Dempsey, but mostly about his management of Mickey Walker, whom Young Firpo was anxious to fight.
Kearns knew that was a bad fight for the World Middleweight Champ, so a match was never made. Elsewhere was more money, less risk.
Mel talked about Estelle Taylor, how she "ruined Dempsey, the dumb bastid!"
I wish I could remember more. A few years back, I struggled to recall everything Mel had shared with me about Young Firpo. A lot came back to me, but I wish I had all of it.

In L.A. Dempsey lived on Western Ave. in what was once an upscale neighborhood. Today it's just a "hood".
Later, after marrying Estelle Taylor, he lived on Los Feliz at the foot of Griffith Park. He had 15 acres of real estate that is still prime Hollywood Hills property.
He paid $150,000 for it in the 20's. If it was today what it was then, it would be worth over $40 million in this bad market. However, it was sub-divided decades ago.
His hotel, "The Barbara", still sits on 6th St. near the corner of Alvarado. Today it's called the Barbizon. If those walls could speak.

Dempsey is on my mind today. Thanks, Rog.


-Rick Farris

If my memory serves me right, Mel thought Dempsey was the greatest heavyweight of all time. Mel had an old photograph of him and Dempsey. He treasured it. That photo has been lost in time. Rick, you're right, Mel talked about Dempsey almost as much as Firpo. If I would have had any sense I would have written down everything he said.

Randy

[Randyman]

I was never sold on Molina. He blew what ever chance he had of been a decent fighter, imo, when he left Ben Lira who has more then 50 years experience, as a am & pro boxer, than as a trainer, for Joe Goosen who had none when he and his brothers started Ten Goose Boxing. I don't think that Joe has learn how to teach a guy how to fight/box in all these years.

Just my thoughts

Frank, like you I was never 100% sold either but I was hopeful. Since Molina has left Lira he has regressed. However, I don't put him in the same class as guys like Victor Ortiz. To Molina's credit he's a game fighter, he's not afraid to mix it up. Still, I don't know if he'll ever develop the skills to be a champion.

Randy

[kikibalt]

Jack Dempsey and his family on their arrival in Los Angeles. Joan, child of former champion and Hannah Williams,
blinks at her first California sunshine. Photo dated: July 29, 1935.

[kikibalt]

A Mexican laborer and his team of horses pauses as Jack Dempsey (in suit) helps out with the grading of the grounds at the hotel and casino "Playa de Ensenada". A lone palm in the background is the beginning of the landscaping. Photo caption reads: "The powerful arms and crafty brain which led Jack Dempsey to the top of the fight list is being turned to other channels these days. Dempsey is president of the syndicate operating Play de Ensenada and spends his time and energy in ironing out the wrinkles in the newly opened hotel and casino. His training ground now is at the hotel where he is shown above giving one of the Mexican laborers a lesson on the proper manner of grading the once barren land which is being turned into a garden spot of rare beauty". Photo dated: May 12, 1930.

[Randyman]

KANSAS

When you grow up in a spot as a little kid ,you think everywhere has the same things in it. When my family moved out to California,I thought the west coast would have the things I was used to seeing back in Chicago.

Back in 1956 my father put everybody in the Hudson Hornet connected to a U Haul Trailer. We traveled on the old Route 66. There's a tiny corner in south east Kansas that the highway cuts through. It seemed like that drive through Kansas took less than a minute. I remember slowing down as we were in a small town. I can see the screen door of a little store. On the front of the door was a sign with that blonde girl that was on the loaf of Butternut Bread.She was holding a slice of Butternut Bread.There was the yellow butter on the slice of bread. I still remember the Butternut Bread theme.
"Tut tut nothun' like Butternut Bread."

I liked Butternut Bread. I liked the face of that girl. I thought I'd always see Butternut Bread. When we passed through Kansas that was the last time I ever saw anything about Butternut Bread again.

I never saw an A&P Gracery Store again nor a Krogers Market. Piggly Wiggly ,I'd never see again neither. I didn't know it at the time. I took it for granted that those things were everywhere.

Driving through Arizona ,my father pulled over to a date stand. I'd never consumed a date before. My father bought me a Dr. Pepper to wash it down. That was new to me too. I drank the Dr. Pepper. My father said that there were dates in the Dr. Pepper.

Later I thought that you can't have it all. Good thing we have all this technology that can remind us of what it once was.
"Tut tut nothin' like Microsoft XP."

Laying around like I have for the last week and a half I have been doing a lot of thinking and remembering. I guess pneumonia just kinda gives a guy the blues. I've been thinking a lot about how things have changed over the years. Sometimes it might be geographical and sometimes it's just the years rolling on by. The Good Humor Man, the Helms Bakery Truck, old buildings and homes that have been knocked down in the name of progress, old friends that have just slipped away over the years, the ever changing family, the old folks dying. Old dogs that are now just a memory. I guess I got the blues today.

Randy

[Randyman]

A Mexican laborer and his team of horses pauses as Jack Dempsey (in suit) helps out with the grading of the grounds at the hotel and casino "Playa de Ensenada". A lone palm in the background is the beginning of the landscaping. Photo caption reads: "The powerful arms and crafty brain which led Jack Dempsey to the top of the fight list is being turned to other channels these days. Dempsey is president of the syndicate operating Play de Ensenada and spends his time and energy in ironing out the wrinkles in the newly opened hotel and casino. His training ground now is at the hotel where he is shown above giving one of the Mexican laborers a lesson on the proper manner of grading the once barren land which is being turned into a garden spot of rare beauty". Photo dated: May 12, 1930.

Classic!
Both photos!

[kikibalt]

Jack Dempsey and wife, Estelle Taylor.

Dempsey, Jack, 1895-1983.
Taylor, Estelle, 1894-1958.

[Randyman]

Headed back to work tomorrow. I'm still not a 100% but a guy has to make a living. Still, I'm going to take it easy. I'm gonna hit the hay early tonight.

Randy

[kikibalt]

KANSAS

When you grow up in a spot as a little kid ,you think everywhere has the same things in it. When my family moved out to California,I thought the west coast would have the things I was used to seeing back in Chicago.

Back in 1956 my father put everybody in the Hudson Hornet connected to a U Haul Trailer. We traveled on the old Route 66. There's a tiny corner in south east Kansas that the highway cuts through. It seemed like that drive through Kansas took less than a minute. I remember slowing down as we were in a small town. I can see the screen door of a little store. On the front of the door was a sign with that blonde girl that was on the loaf of Butternut Bread.She was holding a slice of Butternut Bread.There was the yellow butter on the slice of bread. I still remember the Butternut Bread theme.
"Tut tut nothun' like Butternut Bread."

I liked Butternut Bread. I liked the face of that girl. I thought I'd always see Butternut Bread. When we passed through Kansas that was the last time I ever saw anything about Butternut Bread again.

I never saw an A&P Gracery Store again nor a Krogers Market. Piggly Wiggly ,I'd never see again neither. I didn't know it at the time. I took it for granted that those things were everywhere.

Driving through Arizona ,my father pulled over to a date stand. I'd never consumed a date before. My father bought me a Dr. Pepper to wash it down. That was new to me too. I drank the Dr. Pepper. My father said that there were dates in the Dr. Pepper.

Later I thought that you can't have it all. Good thing we have all this technology that can remind us of what it once was.
"Tut tut nothin' like Microsoft XP."

Laying around like I have for the last week and a half I have been doing a lot of thinking and remembering. I guess pneumonia just kinda gives a guy the blues. I've been thinking a lot about how things have changed over the years. Sometimes it might be geographical and sometimes it's just the years rolling on by. The Good Humor Man, the Helms Bakery Truck, old buildings and homes that have been knocked down in the name of progress, old friends that have just slipped away over the years, the ever changing family, the old folks dying. Old dogs that are now just a memory. I guess I got the blues today.

Randy

Randy....I know what you mean about pneumonia, I had it when I was 32 years old, was laid up for a month, word to the wise, don't think too much, you can go nuts thinking too much....

[kikibalt]

Headed back to work tomorrow. I'm still not a 100% but a guy has to make a living. Still, I'm going to take it easy. I'm gonna hit the hay early tonight.

Randy

Take care of yourself, Randy, your good health means more then anything in life, without your health you don't have nothing...

[Rick Farris]

I was never sold on Molina. He blew what ever chance he had of been a decent fighter, imo, when he left Ben Lira who has more then 50 years experience, as a am & pro boxer, than as a trainer, for Joe Goosen who had none when he and his brothers started Ten Goose Boxing. I don't think that Joe has learn how to teach a guy how to fight/box in all these years.

Just my thoughts

Frank, like you I was never 100% sold either but I was hopeful. Since Molina has left Lira he has regressed. However, I don't put him in the same class as guys like Victor Ortiz. To Molina's credit he's a game fighter, he's not afraid to mix it up. Still, I don't know if he'll ever develop the skills to be a champion.

Randy

I agree with both of you on Molina. I'd never met him until he walked up to me at a Chris Arreola public workout at the Goossen Gym.
He was a very nice guy, and I thought to myself he was too young into his career to rely on a guy like Joe to take him where he needed to go.
It was different with the Ruelas Bros. and Michael Nunn. They all had a natural talent and and a pocket full of luck.
Joe's best working with the guys who have already "been there and done that".
They need a guy who can wrap hands (which Joe does well) and feed 'em a line of crap (Joe is good at that, too.)
Goossen is also a good conditioning coach within reason and is strong in the corner, which is imporatnt. Advice? Better ask somebody who really knows.
I'm putting two trainers up for WBHOF induction this year. One is a real trainer, the other a real successful trainer in today's market.
Johnny Forbes is the real trainer, and with three world champs from day one, Joe Goossen will be the other.
And if Don Fraser starts to rib me over my choice then this is what he shall hear: "You inducted him, didn't you?"

[Rick Farris]

A Mexican laborer and his team of horses pauses as Jack Dempsey (in suit) helps out with the grading of the grounds at the hotel and casino "Playa de Ensenada". A lone palm in the background is the beginning of the landscaping. Photo caption reads: "The powerful arms and crafty brain which led Jack Dempsey to the top of the fight list is being turned to other channels these days. Dempsey is president of the syndicate operating Play de Ensenada and spends his time and energy in ironing out the wrinkles in the newly opened hotel and casino. His training ground now is at the hotel where he is shown above giving one of the Mexican laborers a lesson on the proper manner of grading the once barren land which is being turned into a garden spot of rare beauty". Photo dated: May 12, 1930.

Maybe Chuck, or Hap, can help me with this? I know that Dempsey invested a lot of cash in Ensenada. I think it was a Kearns scheme that ended up with both losing their shirts. When I was a kid, my grandfather and grandmother would take me to Baja with them for a few days. My grandfather was friends with the owner of a small, but very nice, seaside hotel where we'd stay. I'd wander the town trying to find something relating to boxing, which was easier in TJ. What I got was a lot of stories from my grandfather about Dempsey, and how he lost a fortune in one of Doc Kearns "get rich quick" scams. This one involved Casinos like the one above.


-Rick Farris

[Rick Farris]

Frank . . . Thanks for the classic Dempsey photos. I like them all, especially the ones with Jack and his baby daughter, Joan (my mothers name) and the one of him with the laborer in Ensenada. The Ensenada pic really brought back a couple special memories from a time several decades later..