Hopkins vs Haye

[SteveDow]

I'd love to see the fight made in London but I think it would be in Haye's interests to do this in Vegas at the MGM Grand if it takes place. Can you imagine the publicity if he knocked out Hopkins in spectacular fashion there. I know there is a size disadvantage but it would elavate him into the premier league of best known fighters on the planet just as was the case for Hopkins when he beat smaller men in Trinidad and de la Hoya.

[stujones]

Kingfinn's posts are confusing me.... doesn't take much I know.

Are you saying that Haye's pedigree is on another level to Hopkins - irrespective of age, etc? First you say when James' responds about the skill set that Haye would be fighting a 40+ version of Hopkins (very valid).... but you then talk about Haye's amateur pedigree etc, and just describe Hopkins and wiley and tough.

How many Hopkins fights have you seen?

[alectrifyingalex]

agreed except for more skilled, no way is Haye more skilled, you think that Haye would be competing at top level in his mid forties, not a chance mate.

I dont care what haye will be doing in his mid 40's thats not when the fight is going to take place. If your trying to tell me hopkins is more skilled than haye you need to watch more of both of their fights.

Were talking about a silver medalist at the amature world championships, undisputed cruiser weight champion, and world heavyweight champion vs a guy whos best years were at middle weight and they were a long time ago. Hopkins may be tough and wiley but hayes pedigree is on another level, if hopkins was skilled he would have got in the ring and boxed against calzaghe instead of that embarassment to the sport spoiler fest he put on.

omg WTF?! Haye is noway near as skilledas b-hop. Who cares about the amateurs? Roberto duran had a handful of amateur bouts, archie Moore one of the most skilled ever had a rec of 5-4 in the amateurs. B hop has never even suffered a cut! Bhop is still fighting in his 40s at the high end. In comparison haye has been floored many times and cut badly. Haye is a clear four levels below ex. Hayes punching technique is poor too. Haye is not the heaviest hitters vitali hits harder, valero hits harder. If haye hit so hard why did it take 5 rounds to get rid of monte. Please stop talking boxing you're embarassing yourself

[glahn]

Haye by KO.

[SteveDow]

agreed except for more skilled, no way is Haye more skilled, you think that Haye would be competing at top level in his mid forties, not a chance mate.

I dont care what haye will be doing in his mid 40's thats not when the fight is going to take place. If your trying to tell me hopkins is more skilled than haye you need to watch more of both of their fights.

Were talking about a silver medalist at the amature world championships, undisputed cruiser weight champion, and world heavyweight champion vs a guy whos best years were at middle weight and they were a long time ago. Hopkins may be tough and wiley but hayes pedigree is on another level, if hopkins was skilled he would have got in the ring and boxed against calzaghe instead of that embarassment to the sport spoiler fest he put on.

omg WTF?! Haye is noway near as skilledas b-hop. Who cares about the amateurs? Roberto duran had a handful of amateur bouts, archie Moore one of the most skilled ever had a rec of 5-4 in the amateurs. B hop has never even suffered a cut! Bhop is still fighting in his 40s at the high end. In comparison haye has been floored many times and cut badly. Haye is a clear four levels below ex. Hayes punching technique is poor too. Haye is not the heaviest hitters vitali hits harder, valero hits harder. If haye hit so hard why did it take 5 rounds to get rid of monte. Please stop talking boxing you're embarassing yourself

I think you are the one who is embarrassing yourself.

Why are you comparing Haye's punching power with that of Edwin Valero?? Completely different weight divisons and Haye has mixed in better pound for pound company.

As for Haye taking 5 rounds to get rid of Barrett, well it took Wladimir Klitschko 7 rounds so in comparison Haye taking him out in 5 is a good effort.

In addition, how can you criticise Haye's punching technique when he has knocked out 21 of his 23 victims and had Valuev (who no-one has been able to hurt) in trouble in round 12?? That is one of the best ko ratios in boxing so to suggest that he doesn't know how to punch is ridiculous.

For the record, I actaully think pound for pound Hopkins is the better fighter but this fight would be at heavyweight and for me Hopkins would be disadvantaged in every department apart from having more experience.

[Finn]

agreed except for more skilled, no way is Haye more skilled, you think that Haye would be competing at top level in his mid forties, not a chance mate.

I dont care what haye will be doing in his mid 40's thats not when the fight is going to take place. If your trying to tell me hopkins is more skilled than haye you need to watch more of both of their fights.

Were talking about a silver medalist at the amature world championships, undisputed cruiser weight champion, and world heavyweight champion vs a guy whos best years were at middle weight and they were a long time ago. Hopkins may be tough and wiley but hayes pedigree is on another level, if hopkins was skilled he would have got in the ring and boxed against calzaghe instead of that embarassment to the sport spoiler fest he put on.

I guessed you missed Haye's snoozefest with Valuev, the slow, unskilled plodder who threw no punches and has no power for his 320 pounds? It's alot harder to box and look good against a guy like Calzaghe who is very fast, skilled, and throws about 80 punches a round.



Haye would beat Hopkins at this stage. Hopkins was unimpressive against Ornales and Haye is to big. P4P at the same age Hopkins would beat him, but at I think he may finally be slowing down and the size disadvantage would be hard to overcome against a skilled guy like Haye.


Kingfin, explain this one to me. In another post you have Calzaghe down as beating RJJ, Hearns, Hagler, Leonard, Robinson, Spinks, and a slew of other legends in their primes. If Calzaghe is that great, then wouldn't it take a huge amount of skill to floor him, land clean counter punches on him, lose only a split decision, and even win the fight in some peoples eyes? Not to mention win world titles in two different weight division, set the all time record for MW defenses while scoring dominant victories in almost all your title bouts, including multiple wins over pound for pound rated fighters?

I guess u missed the fact that haye won the fight in the only way possible and also broke his right hand in round 2 beating a guy 8st heavier and a ft taller who had lost only 1 of his previous 51 fights lol. I suspect you missed the 21 fights haye ko'd his opponents out of his 23 wins.

If Calzaghe was that great he would have been world champion for 10 years, retired undefeated in 46 fights and held world titles at 2 different weights and beaten top p4p fighters. Oh wait he did!

Im not getting into another long drawn out debate about who the best super middle weight of all time is - because it was calzaghe. Your opinion is Calzaghe wasnt that good, my opinion is RJJ is a legend due to his titles at multiple weights not what he achieved at super middleweight.

Calzaghe would have beaten anyone at super middle weight.

Saying haye would loose to hopkins if they were the same age and by some miracle were both light heavies is just stupid, Manny Paquiao would beat them both if he was by some black magic he turned into a geniune light heavyweight or all three fighters were middleweights.

[Finn]

agreed except for more skilled, no way is Haye more skilled, you think that Haye would be competing at top level in his mid forties, not a chance mate.

I dont care what haye will be doing in his mid 40's thats not when the fight is going to take place. If your trying to tell me hopkins is more skilled than haye you need to watch more of both of their fights.

Were talking about a silver medalist at the amature world championships, undisputed cruiser weight champion, and world heavyweight champion vs a guy whos best years were at middle weight and they were a long time ago. Hopkins may be tough and wiley but hayes pedigree is on another level, if hopkins was skilled he would have got in the ring and boxed against calzaghe instead of that embarassment to the sport spoiler fest he put on.

omg WTF?! Haye is noway near as skilledas b-hop. Who cares about the amateurs? Roberto duran had a handful of amateur bouts, archie Moore one of the most skilled ever had a rec of 5-4 in the amateurs. B hop has never even suffered a cut! Bhop is still fighting in his 40s at the high end. In comparison haye has been floored many times and cut badly. Haye is a clear four levels below ex. Hayes punching technique is poor too. Haye is not the heaviest hitters vitali hits harder, valero hits harder. If haye hit so hard why did it take 5 rounds to get rid of monte. Please stop talking boxing you're embarassing yourself

At least the other posters; weather i agree with there opinion or not actually seem to know something about boxing, your just talkin drivell! Hayes punch power or technique isnt even up for debate.

Maybe you should watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sORAvCv

It highlights hayes poor punching technique lol.

[crusader]

I guess u missed the fact that haye won the fight in the only way possible and also broke his right hand in round 2 beating a guy 8st heavier and a ft taller who had lost only 1 of his previous 51 fights lol. I suspect you missed the 21 fights haye ko'd his opponents out of his 23 wins.

If Calzaghe was that great he would have been world champion for 10 years, retired undefeated in 46 fights and held world titles at 2 different weights and beaten top p4p fighters. Oh wait he did!

Im not getting into another long drawn out debate about who the best super middle weight of all time is - because it was calzaghe. Your opinion is Calzaghe wasnt that good, my opinion is RJJ is a legend due to his titles at multiple weights not what he achieved at super middleweight.

Calzaghe would have beaten anyone at super middle weight.

Saying haye would loose to hopkins if they were the same age and by some miracle were both light heavies is just stupid, Manny Paquiao would beat them both if he was by some black magic he turned into a geniune light heavyweight or all three fighters were middleweights.

Lol, it doesn't matter how big or fancy Valuev's record is, fact is the guy is extremly limited, has beaten weak opposition, had already been defeated by Chagaev and many people thought Donald, Holyfield, and Ruiz did enough to get wins. He may be large, but he has never shown any serious knockout power. Haye could've thrown more than 10 punches a round. Hopkins fought also fought a boring fight, but he had to deal with a guy who was very fast, active, and all round talented. Not to mention Calzaghe has just as much power at SMW and LHW as Valuev does at heavyweight. Even as a LHW Hopkins at his best could probably box circles around Valuev.

I'm not arguing about how good Calzaghe was, I know he was an excellent fighter, no need to try and back up your idol over and over. He defantly has accomplished more at SMW than any other fighter, although I don't believe he was the most talented boxer to ever compete at that weight. I criticize him but I'm not denying he was really good. Not sure why you thought I was starting a debate about him?

You said Hopkins wasn't skilled. You still haven't explained how someone with no skill could drop and fight competitively with someone you regard as highly as Calzaghe, while also winning titles in multiple divisions, beating P4P fighters throughout his career and well into his 40's and setting the all time record for MW defenses during a dominant reign. Care to give that one a go for me?

Do you know what the term pound for pound means? Someone as limited as yourself probably doesn't relaize it is used hypothetically to discuss match ups that could never happen.Thats why Pacquiao is considered a better fighter than Chris Arreola even though he would get hammered if they fought. Obviously Haye and Hopkins could never be the same age or weight, but if those factors were equal Hopkins would have the advantage. I don't see how it is stupid to mention things like that, this is a boxing discussion forum after all and 50% of the fights discussed here never happened or never will happen.

I also recall you saying something along the lines of "If David Haye isn't the best technical boxer on the planet, the pope isn't holy" It is useless to argue with anyone as deluded and biased as yourself so I'm glad you don't want to get into a long drawn out debate.

[Finn]

I guess u missed the fact that haye won the fight in the only way possible and also broke his right hand in round 2 beating a guy 8st heavier and a ft taller who had lost only 1 of his previous 51 fights lol. I suspect you missed the 21 fights haye ko'd his opponents out of his 23 wins.

If Calzaghe was that great he would have been world champion for 10 years, retired undefeated in 46 fights and held world titles at 2 different weights and beaten top p4p fighters. Oh wait he did!

Im not getting into another long drawn out debate about who the best super middle weight of all time is - because it was calzaghe. Your opinion is Calzaghe wasnt that good, my opinion is RJJ is a legend due to his titles at multiple weights not what he achieved at super middleweight.

Calzaghe would have beaten anyone at super middle weight.

Saying haye would loose to hopkins if they were the same age and by some miracle were both light heavies is just stupid, Manny Paquiao would beat them both if he was by some black magic he turned into a geniune light heavyweight or all three fighters were middleweights.

Lol, it doesn't matter how big or fancy Valuev's record is, fact is the guy is extremly limited, has beaten weak opposition, had already been defeated by Chagaev and many people thought Donald, Holyfield, and Ruiz did enough to get wins. He may be large, but he has never shown any serious knockout power. Haye could've thrown more than 10 punches a round. Hopkins fought also fought a boring fight, but he had to deal with a guy who was very fast, active, and all round talented. Not to mention Calzaghe has just as much power at SMW and LHW as Valuev does at heavyweight. Even as a LHW Hopkins at his best could probably box circles around Valuev.

I'm not arguing about how good Calzaghe was, I know he was an excellent fighter, no need to try and back up your idol over and over. He defantly has accomplished more at SMW than any other fighter, although I don't believe he was the most talented boxer to ever compete at that weight. I criticize him but I'm not denying he was really good. Not sure why you thought I was starting a debate about him?

You said Hopkins wasn't skilled. You still haven't explained how someone with no skill could drop and fight competitively with someone you regard as highly as Calzaghe, while also winning titles in multiple divisions, beating P4P fighters throughout his career and well into his 40's and setting the all time record for MW defenses during a dominant reign. Care to give that one a go for me?

Do you know what the term pound for pound means? Someone as limited as yourself probably doesn't relaize it is used hypothetically to discuss match ups that could never happen.Thats why Pacquiao is considered a better fighter than Chris Arreola even though he would get hammered if they fought. Obviously Haye and Hopkins could never be the same age or weight, but if those factors were equal Hopkins would have the advantage. I don't see how it is stupid to mention things like that, this is a boxing discussion forum after all and 50% of the fights discussed here never happened or never will happen.

I also recall you saying something along the lines of "If David Haye isn't the best technical boxer on the planet, the pope isn't holy" It is useless to argue with anyone as deluded and biased as yourself so I'm glad you don't want to get into a long drawn out debate.

You base your comments on ifs and buts and your squinted perspective of the fights you've seen - "some people say hopkins won the calzaghe fight" - but he didnt he lost, "many people thought Donald, Holyfield, and Ruiz did enough to get wins" - but they didnt, did they!

The whole p4p argument is just a gimick it means pretty much nothing its always going to be harder for a hw to match a WW in the ratings.

Im also pretty sure i never said "If David Haye isn't the best technical boxer on the planet, the pope isn't holy" considering i consider skill and technical ability to mean two completely different things. I'd say he's one of the most technical fighters on the planet considering he's a world champion, however i'd say he is far more skilled than he is technical.

[crusader]

I guess u missed the fact that haye won the fight in the only way possible and also broke his right hand in round 2 beating a guy 8st heavier and a ft taller who had lost only 1 of his previous 51 fights lol. I suspect you missed the 21 fights haye ko'd his opponents out of his 23 wins.

If Calzaghe was that great he would have been world champion for 10 years, retired undefeated in 46 fights and held world titles at 2 different weights and beaten top p4p fighters. Oh wait he did!

Im not getting into another long drawn out debate about who the best super middle weight of all time is - because it was calzaghe. Your opinion is Calzaghe wasnt that good, my opinion is RJJ is a legend due to his titles at multiple weights not what he achieved at super middleweight.

Calzaghe would have beaten anyone at super middle weight.

Saying haye would loose to hopkins if they were the same age and by some miracle were both light heavies is just stupid, Manny Paquiao would beat them both if he was by some black magic he turned into a geniune light heavyweight or all three fighters were middleweights.

Lol, it doesn't matter how big or fancy Valuev's record is, fact is the guy is extremly limited, has beaten weak opposition, had already been defeated by Chagaev and many people thought Donald, Holyfield, and Ruiz did enough to get wins. He may be large, but he has never shown any serious knockout power. Haye could've thrown more than 10 punches a round. Hopkins fought also fought a boring fight, but he had to deal with a guy who was very fast, active, and all round talented. Not to mention Calzaghe has just as much power at SMW and LHW as Valuev does at heavyweight. Even as a LHW Hopkins at his best could probably box circles around Valuev.

I'm not arguing about how good Calzaghe was, I know he was an excellent fighter, no need to try and back up your idol over and over. He defantly has accomplished more at SMW than any other fighter, although I don't believe he was the most talented boxer to ever compete at that weight. I criticize him but I'm not denying he was really good. Not sure why you thought I was starting a debate about him?

You said Hopkins wasn't skilled. You still haven't explained how someone with no skill could drop and fight competitively with someone you regard as highly as Calzaghe, while also winning titles in multiple divisions, beating P4P fighters throughout his career and well into his 40's and setting the all time record for MW defenses during a dominant reign. Care to give that one a go for me?

Do you know what the term pound for pound means? Someone as limited as yourself probably doesn't relaize it is used hypothetically to discuss match ups that could never happen.Thats why Pacquiao is considered a better fighter than Chris Arreola even though he would get hammered if they fought. Obviously Haye and Hopkins could never be the same age or weight, but if those factors were equal Hopkins would have the advantage. I don't see how it is stupid to mention things like that, this is a boxing discussion forum after all and 50% of the fights discussed here never happened or never will happen.

I also recall you saying something along the lines of "If David Haye isn't the best technical boxer on the planet, the pope isn't holy" It is useless to argue with anyone as deluded and biased as yourself so I'm glad you don't want to get into a long drawn out debate.

You base your comments on ifs and buts and your squinted perspective of the fights you've seen - "some people say hopkins won the calzaghe fight" - but he didnt he lost, "many people thought Donald, Holyfield, and Ruiz did enough to get wins" - but they didnt, did they!

The whole p4p argument is just a gimick it means pretty much nothing its always going to be harder for a hw to match a WW in the ratings.

Im also pretty sure i never said "If David Haye isn't the best technical boxer on the planet, the pope isn't holy" considering i consider skill and technical ability to mean two completely different things. I'd say he's one of the most technical fighters on the planet considering he's a world champion, however i'd say he is far more skilled than he is technical.

It doesn't really matter if they were official losses (Chagaev officially beat him). The fact is all three of those guys, who are hardly anything special, were ultra competitive with Valuev and made him look foolish at times. You know judges arn't the only people capable of scoring fights right? Countless observers thought all though those guys did enough, so it really goes to show win or lose that Valuev isn't all that despite the fancy record.

Why do you keep dodging my questions about Hopkins? I will repeat myself for a third time. Please tell me how someone with no skill could be competitive and floor someone who you regard as highly as Calzaghe, win titles in two weight divisions, beat elite fighters who appeared in p4p rankings (ok, I understand you don't buy the p4p thing, but they were the best of their division non the less) well into his 40's, and set the record for all time MW title defense during a dominant reign?

[Tykemania]

i agree with toppler, Hopkins schools the technicallly flawed Haye. Dimensions wise Haye is not much bigger than Hopkins. Plus Hopkins goes up in weight well, he has one of/if not the best team in boxing, they know exactly what to do and when to do it. Plus with Brother Nasir Richardson's history of flawless gameplans, and hopkins ability to execute...goodbye haye.

Well, Hopkins is not going to knock Haye out and, however well he cuddles up to him, Haye is going to land at some point - and I don't think, with all due respect to Pavlik, that being hit by a blown up pressure fighting middleweight is anything like being hit by a genuine power puncher. Bear in mind that Haye managed to stun Valuev, and has genuine one punch KO power in both hands.

[Finn]

It doesn't really matter if they were official losses (Chagaev officially beat him). The fact is all three of those guys, who are hardly anything special, were ultra competitive with Valuev and made him look foolish at times. You know judges arn't the only people capable of scoring fights right? Countless observers thought all though those guys did enough, so it really goes to show win or lose that Valuev isn't all that despite the fancy record.

Why do you keep dodging my questions about Hopkins? I will repeat myself for a third time. Please tell me how someone with no skill could be competitive and floor someone who you regard as highly as Calzaghe, win titles in two weight divisions, beat elite fighters who appeared in p4p rankings (ok, I understand you don't buy the p4p thing, but they were the best of their division non the less) well into his 40's, and set the record for all time MW title defense during a dominant reign?

Countless people - lol countless people deny the holocaust your statement means nothing!

Hopkins cheated and spoiled all the way through the calzaghe fight thats how he stayed competative if he was so skilled he would have gone out and boxed. He put calzaghe on his arse for all of a second - he didnt even hurt him. Hopkins spent far more time on the canvas than calzaghe and spent the whole night running, holding, head butting or faining injury. If it wasnt for the fact Joe Cortez was the ref he would have had points deducted anyway.

I cant remember saying hopkins had no skill we all know what hopkins has acheived - i said haye has more skill. Your just grasping at strawers.

[crusader]

It doesn't really matter if they were official losses (Chagaev officially beat him). The fact is all three of those guys, who are hardly anything special, were ultra competitive with Valuev and made him look foolish at times. You know judges arn't the only people capable of scoring fights right? Countless observers thought all though those guys did enough, so it really goes to show win or lose that Valuev isn't all that despite the fancy record.

Why do you keep dodging my questions about Hopkins? I will repeat myself for a third time. Please tell me how someone with no skill could be competitive and floor someone who you regard as highly as Calzaghe, win titles in two weight divisions, beat elite fighters who appeared in p4p rankings (ok, I understand you don't buy the p4p thing, but they were the best of their division non the less) well into his 40's, and set the record for all time MW title defense during a dominant reign?

Countless people - lol countless people deny the holocaust your statement means nothing!

Hopkins cheated and spoiled all the way through the calzaghe fight thats how he stayed competative if he was so skilled he would have gone out and boxed. He put calzaghe on his arse for all of a second - he didnt even hurt him. Hopkins spent far more time on the canvas than calzaghe and spent the whole night running, holding, head butting or faining injury. If it wasnt for the fact Joe Cortez was the ref he would have had points deducted anyway.

I cant remember saying hopkins had no skill we all know what hopkins has acheived - i said haye has more skill. Your just grasping at strawers.

If hopkins was skilled he would have got in the ring and boxed against calzaghe instead of that embarassment to the sport spoiler fest he put on

When you say "If" Hopkins was skilled, you are implying that he isn't skilled. You still avoid telling me how someone with little or no skill could win titles in multiple weight divisions into his 40's, beat the best fighters in his division, and set an all time record for title defenses. Please give that one a shot.

There is absolutely no comparison to the minuscule number of people who deny the Holocaust and people who thought Holyfield, Donald, and Ruiz did enough to beat Valuev. They were clearly competitive and every well respected boxing writer or source that covered the fight recognized that, as did the majority posters on these forums. These fights against average and well over the hill opponents showed how limited Valuev is and when he stepped up to fight a slightly better opponent in Chagaev he lost. Haye beating him was nothing special and it had already been done

I'f I'm the one clutching to "strawers" than why aren't you answering my question about Hopkins? Instead you'd rather bring up the Holocaust

[damianhucker1]

This thread is nonsense , its not even a debate , regardles of what b-hop says , this fight will never happen , hopkins aint stupid , he knows he cant win this fight , hes just hyping himself up again , id bet on it , that it wont happen .

[crusader]

This thread is nonsense , its not even a debate , regardles of what b-hop says , this fight will never happen , hopkins aint stupid , he knows he cant win this fight , hes just hyping himself up again , id bet on it , that it wont happen .

Yes I agree. Hopkins won't even fight Dawson or Green so there is no way he is fighting Haye. Instead he wants to fight RJJ

[HomicideHenry]

I'd rather see Hopkins-Adamek or Adamek-Haye.

[alectrifyingalex]

Lol you said haye is the hardest hitter in boxing. Boxing has weight divisions-therefore as you are talking pound for pound puncheres I mentioned edwin valero who hits harder than him, see the relevance now? Lol I didn't say he doesn't hit hard I said his technique is poor just because he has power doesn't mean he has technique, for instance George foreman, jack dempsey they didn't have good technique but hit very very hard, in a more up to date scenario someone like a mayorga. Very rarely have I seen haye ko someone throwing a technical, compact on balance shot- he lives up to his nickname the hayemaker. Bernard Hopkins being a better p4p fighter than haye is unquestionable-shouldn't even be up for debate. Middleweights can't land clean on him so Hayes speed isn't going to cause him problems. As mentioned haye does a lot of posing and opts to fight at a slow pace to beat Hopkins you gotta put pressure on him, no way can hate try to outfox and counter Hopkins. Haye can do all these sprints, supposedly spar all these rounds with 30 second breaks history shows is hayes stamina is poor. It's all opinions after all but I think patriosm rules some of your heads and this is why time after time odds are always so good in this country lol.

[Wales]

In addition, how can you criticise Haye's punching technique when he has knocked out 21 of his 23 victims and had Valuev (who no-one has been able to hurt) in trouble in round 12??

.

Valuev has been hurt before, watch the second round of his fight with that canadian heavyweight fomr about 18 months ago...

As for boxing ability, Hopkins is one of the most intelligent boxers on the planet - see his fights with trinidad and Pavlik for punch perfect perfromances.

[damianhucker1]

no one disagrees that hopkins is or was a great a fighter , but for him to go in with haye would be virtually suicide , i would genuinely fear for his health if he attempted it . but as i said before , it will never happen , hopkins isnt that stupid.