Jeresy Joe Walcott Versus

[ThatOne]

a prime Muhammad Ali

" " Sonny Liston

" " Floyd Patterson

" " Joe Frazier

" " Ron Lyle

" " Floyd Patterson

" " George Foreman

[Goodnight, Irene]

Ali has a difficult time with Walcott's style & bag of tricks, but Walcott has a similarly hard time of Ali's speed & unorthodox rhythm. Ali on a clear, but competitive, UD for mine.

Sooner or later, Liston's reach & power tell. He knocks out Walcott.

Debatable fight. I lean toward Walcott over Patterson, but this one is not for gamblers.

An on-song Walcott might surprise Frazier, especially over twelve, but I don't see it as his fight, & at fifteen rounds, I'm certain Frazier gets him out of there at some point. Walcott wasn't Ali in durability. Frazier stops Walcott in eleven, even on one card, ahead on another, & trailing on another still.

Young did it. Quarry did it. Walcott'd do it. A decision over Lyle. Too crafty, too smart a fighter.

Is that a rematch with Patterson? ;)

Foreman overwhelms Walcott early, is my suspicion.

[dempseyfire]

Ali competitive UD over Walcott

Liston UD over Walcott

Walcott UD over Patterson

Frazier TKO 12 Walcott

Walcott UD12 over Lyle

Upset: Walcott TKO 10 an exhausted Foreman

[Goodnight, Irene]

"...Upset: Walcott TKO 10 an exhausted Foreman" - DempseyFire

We are no longer e-allies

[dempseyfire]

"...Upset: Walcott TKO 10 an exhausted Foreman" - DempseyFire

We are no longer e-allies

Ha, I like Foreman a lot and I of course wouldn't rule out a Foreman ko victory. But if Peralta could frustrate the hell out of George and land counters, not to mention the Jimmy Young fight, the much superior Walcott would've given Foreman major problems. Look at the best fighters George beat at his best: Frazier, Lyle, and Norton. Norton was the best 'boxer' of the three but was by no means as slick or frustrating as a peak Walcott. Walcott has a style which is very bad for Foreman if George can't stop him early.

[BoxBuzz]

Dempsey, I would agree that Walcott COULD do this, for just the reasons you list. Walcott has that style that could give Foreman trouble. I bet against Foreman ONCE and I was shaking everytime he took a swing in Ali's direction. Until about the 3rd round when I sensed Ali really planned to win.

But for all that potential I still suspect that Foreman somehow connects enough to end it before the cards are read.

[thehero55]

As far as the Patterson fight I think if it went the distance, Patterson wins with his superior handspeed, but Walcott would have a real shot at scoring a stoppage vicotory.

[HomicideHenry]

Ali's style and bag of tricks was based on Walcott's, or so says Angello Dundee who trained him. It would be a mirror reflection, imo, but Walcott was the better tactician and could take punishment and could be hard to hit himself----I see a close fight all the way around; Walcott was greatly under-rated, he was a better fighter at 38 than what Ali was post Manila. Prime for prime, its difficult to say, Ali never fought a HW with the skill, strength, and smarts of a Joe Walcott. Its safe to say Ali easily wins, but I dont think the Ali of 1964-1967 would have had an easy time with Walcott like he did with Patterson, Terrell and Folley.

Frazier was a duplicate of Marciano, but didnt have the work rate of Rocky. I see the fight going the distance, a split decision, with Walcott winning the fight. In a series, Frazier may overcome Jersey Joe, but Walcott was a tricky son of a bitch and wasnt afraid to trade. He could take punishment from Louis and Marciano for several rounds---I think he'd do the same and more with Frazier.

As far as Patterson goes, the peek-a-boo defense may work for a while, and his hand speed may trouble Jersey Joe---but Walcott fought faster men than himself and went the distance (Charles)---it would be a give and take fight, quick and full of tactical moves. Patterson fell short to Ali, who was also tricky and elusive. Walcott could make a guy think he was going one way, and then come around another. Patterson just darted in and out, threw combinations. I think thats limited, when fighting a guy like Walcott. I see it going the distance. Flip a coin, imo, it can go either way---but I perfer Walcott.

Ron Lyle could bo, as he shown against Ali. But he was mainly a slugger, a counter puncher when the time called for it. I dont think Walcott would knock im out, unless it went passed the 10th round, but i think Walcott wins a UD over him.

As for Foreman, he was complete fighter when he returned in the 1980's and 1990's, but in is prime, he was wild swinging, and prone to fits of rage. A guy like Walcott would befuddle him round after round, it would go the distance---a mirror of the Young fight, ecept Walcott would be more active in the ring.

[The Great John L]

Ali competitive UD over Walcott

Liston UD over Walcott

Walcott UD over Patterson

Frazier TKO 12 Walcott

Walcott UD12 over Lyle

Upset: Walcott TKO 10 an exhausted Foreman

These sound about right.

[Grimm]

Ali competitive UD over Walcott

Liston UD over Walcott

Walcott UD over Patterson

Frazier TKO 12 Walcott

Walcott UD12 over Lyle

Upset: Walcott TKO 10 an exhausted Foreman

I think I agree with this one.

To beat Foreman he would have to fight perfect though.

[Ezzard]

Dempsey, I would agree that Walcott COULD do this, for just the reasons you list. Walcott has that style that could give Foreman trouble. I bet against Foreman ONCE and I was shaking everytime he took a swing in Ali's direction. Until about the 3rd round when I sensed Ali really planned to win.

But for all that potential I still suspect that Foreman somehow connects enough to end it before the cards are read.

That's twice... You bet on Holyfield over Tyson and Ali over Foreman when everyone else was saying no way...

I hope you won big. Please let us in on your rationale for these bets.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Foreman cripples Walcott at some point. The whol issue made of Foreman's best wins during his pomp coming against Frazier & Norton, & the fact they were non-movers, is a red herring. I give Foreman approximately a 50-50 chance against a peak Holmes (too bad Larry was still inexplicably playing with kid gloves when Foreman was champ, in spite of them sharing a birthyear), & he was an all-time boxer-mover at Heavyweight. Lesser types, such as Tunney or Walcott, I fancy get dispatched.

It was true Foreman's style wasn't suited to fighting those men, but it's also true all-time ring legends overcome that more often than not. No one ever outboxed a prime Foreman, &, sans Ali, no one beat him.

[The Great John L]

Foreman cripples Walcott at some point. The whol issue made of Foreman's best wins during his pomp coming against Frazier & Norton, & the fact they were non-movers, is a red herring. I give Foreman approximately a 50-50 chance against a peak Holmes (too bad Larry was still inexplicably playing with kid gloves when Foreman was champ, in spite of them sharing a birthyear), & he was an all-time boxer-mover at Heavyweight. Lesser types, such as Tunney or Walcott, I fancy get dispatched.

It was true Foreman's style wasn't suited to fighting those men, but it's also true all-time ring legends overcome that more often than not. No one ever outboxed a prime Foreman, &, sans Ali, no one beat him.

Well maybe it’s just me, but Young certainly seemed to have outboxed George.

The only time Foreman was able to beat a good boxer was against Peralta, who was a weight and several years past his best. If there was some additional empirical evidence to support George being able to overcome an excellent boxer, then I could possibly be persuaded, but George and his management tried their best to avoid people who could expose his rather obvious weaknesses.

A prime Holmes would have handled Foreman and probably stopped a lumped up and exhausted George late.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Nice work by-passing the word, "prime." Foreman wasn't when he met Young. It's just as fun to watch you mention Peralta being past his peak, but make no such qualification about Foreman being decidedly green, especially in the original meeting.

To reverse the Holmes equation, when did he ever face anyone like Foreman? You mention Shavers, & I swear I'll turn homicidal.

[HomicideHenry]

Holmes never did face anyone like Foreman.

[The Great John L]

Nice work by-passing the word, "prime." Foreman wasn't when he met Young. It's just as fun to watch you mention Peralta being past his peak, but make no such qualification about Foreman being decidedly green, especially in the original meeting.

To reverse the Holmes equation, when did he ever face anyone like Foreman? You mention Shavers, & I swear I'll turn homicidal.

Forgive me I forgot that George had an even shorter “prime” than Holmes. Once he was beaten by Ali he was so fragile that he was just never the same, completely unable to perform and lacking all desire. Except, of course, for that little episode where he climbed the canvas and came back from near death to beat the near carbon copy Ron Lyle.

I never said that Foreman had never fought someone like Holmes, because that’s the simple logic used by people who really don’t know the sport. I merely ask the question a little more general. What quality defensive boxer did George ever beat? Holmes beat plenty of big punchers. And no, none of them were George Foreman. But Holmes at least fought all styles of fighters during his career, that’s why he had a number of close fights. It’s a lot harder to perform when fighting different styles of fighters, and George was woefully short of any experience with defensive boxers. Except for his KO loss to Ali and his loss to Young when he was obviously WAY past his best and barely even competent, due to being a broken man after the Ali thrashing.

[dempseyfire]

Foreman was 28 years old, 45-1, was the number 1 contender and had just destroyed Frazier a second time in a career-best performance. To say George was out of his prime vs Young is akin to the Tyson nuthuggers claiming Tyson's prime ended in 1988.

And Foreman was 15-0 and an Olympic gold medalist fighting the 35 year old Peralta who was a light heavyweight most of his career and whose prime was in the early 1960s. Foreman should have been able to handle Peralta at that stage (like he did for the most part but not without problems)

[Mr E]

In my humble opinion, Walcott goes 1-4-1 against this group:

--L15 to Ali
--TKO by 10 to Liston
--pick 'em v. Patterson: I can envision each winning 5 out of any 10 fights
--TKO by 12 to Frazier
--W15 over Lyle
--KO by 3 to Foreman

[The Great John L]

Foreman was 28 years old, 45-1, was the number 1 contender and had just destroyed Frazier a second time in a career-best performance. To say George was out of his prime vs Young is akin to the Tyson nuthuggers claiming Tyson's prime ended in 1988.

And Foreman was 15-0 and an Olympic gold medalist fighting the 35 year old Peralta who was a light heavyweight most of his career and whose prime was in the early 1960s. Foreman should have been able to handle Peralta at that stage (like he did for the most part but not without problems)

And let’s not forget that no one is claiming George wasn’t a great fighter, just that it appears that he had weaknesses that Walcott, or any other very experienced world class HW could have exploited to cause him problems. The actual results in his career support that theory much more than the more common theory that George was some superman who could walk down and destroy everybody but Ali.

[ThatOne]

Foreman was 28 years old, 45-1, was the number 1 contender and had just destroyed Frazier a second time in a career-best performance. To say George was out of his prime vs Young is akin to the Tyson nuthuggers claiming Tyson's prime ended in 1988.

And Foreman was 15-0 and an Olympic gold medalist fighting the 35 year old Peralta who was a light heavyweight most of his career and whose prime was in the early 1960s. Foreman should have been able to handle Peralta at that stage (like he did for the most part but not without problems)

And let’s not forget that no one is claiming George wasn’t a great fighter, just that it appears that he had weaknesses that Walcott, or any other very experienced world class HW could have exploited to cause him problems. The actual results in his career support that theory much more than the more common theory that George was some superman who could walk down and destroy everybody but Ali.

How do you see the fight playing out?

Larry, to this day, says Foreman was afraid of him.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Larry is as full of sh!t ast any fighter who ever pulled on the gloves. He was always childishly jealous of Foreman during their respective comebacks.

He was an asshole out of the ring, & not as exciting in it. He could never understand why those factors meant he'd never be as popular as Foreman. He never got over it.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Foreman was 28 years old, 45-1, was the number 1 contender and had just destroyed Frazier a second time in a career-best performance. To say George was out of his prime vs Young is akin to the Tyson nuthuggers claiming Tyson's prime ended in 1988.

And Foreman was 15-0 and an Olympic gold medalist fighting the 35 year old Peralta who was a light heavyweight most of his career and whose prime was in the early 1960s. Foreman should have been able to handle Peralta at that stage (like he did for the most part but not without problems)

Felix Trinidad was the same age & 40-1-0 after losing to Bernard Hopkins. Still ranked among the top Jr. Middle & Middleweights on the planet.

Same fighter, was he? Doubtful.

[boxing_fanatic_87]

Foreman KO's Walcott within 6
Ali decisions Walcott
Frazier stops Walcott late, maybe around 10 or 11
Walcott decision Ron Lyle
Walcott decisions Floyd Patterson
I'm kinda on the fence about Liston, but I'll say this, I think if Liston doesn't catch him within the first 6, he loses on points.

[ThatOne]

Larry is as full of sh!t ast any fighter who ever pulled on the gloves. He was always childishly jealous of Foreman during their respective comebacks.

He was an asshole out of the ring, & not as exciting in it. He could never understand why those factors meant he'd never be as popular as Foreman. He never got over it.

Yeah, I don't think Big George was scared of him.

I also don't pay credence to the rumor he was scared of Jerry Quarry. If he wasn't scared of Joe Frazier he shouldn't be scared of Jerry Quarry.

[Goodnight, Irene]

^^^That's correct.