Rating the Heavyweights of the 1960s

[Mr E]

People always talk about the 1970s being a great era for heavyweights, which it certainly was, but the 1960s comprised a pretty good stretch of years too. Here's how I see the period between January 1, 1960 and December 31, 1969:

1-Muhammad Ali
2-Joe Frazier
3-Sonny Liston
4-Floyd Patterson
5-Ernie Terrell
6-Jimmy Ellis
7-Jerry Quarry
8-Cleveland Williams
9-Ingemar Johansson
10-Zora Folley
11-Eddie Machen
12-Oscar Bonavena
13-George Chuvalo
14-Doug Jones
15-Henry Cooper

I won't nit-pick if you don't like the order -- I knocked it out off the top of my head -- my point is just that, shoot, this is a dang good group of fighters, top to bottom.

[ThatOne]

Ali beat everbody on the list beside Machen and Ingo.

Gawd, can you imagine how badly 1967 Ali embarasses Ingo?

[Controversial]

Nice list, usual suspects there, except maybe you could squeeze in Leotis Martin who had stoppage wins over Liston, Spencer, Mildenburger and the then undefeated Al Lewis all in the 1960's

[ThatOne]

Nice list, usual suspects there, except maybe you could squeeze in Leotis Martin who had stoppage wins over Liston, Spencer, Mildenburger and the then undefeated Al Lewis all in the 1960's

He was one of my favorites until he was stopped by a detatched retina.

[HomicideHenry]

Ali beat everbody on the list beside Machen and Ingo.

Gawd, can you imagine how badly 1967 Ali embarasses Ingo?

Don't tell me you're one of those who believe in the tale of a 4-0-0 Ali easily making Johansson miss when they sparred two rounds, are you? In either case, impossible, for Johansson retired one bout after his rubber match with Patterson.

[ThatOne]

Ali beat everbody on the list beside Machen and Ingo.

Gawd, can you imagine how badly 1967 Ali embarasses Ingo?

Don't tell me you're one of those who believe in the tale of a 4-0-0 Ali easily making Johansson miss when they sparred two rounds, are you? In either case, impossible, for Johansson retired one bout after his rubber match with Patterson.

I believe it as much as the fact that Tim Witherspoon was let go by the Gerry Cooney camp because Cooney almost fell over every time he tried to land a big right on him and missed.

As for Ali any version of him between 1964-1977 would have turned Ingo inside out. He's not in the same class as Ali. It would be like putting Roseanne in the same class as Salma Hayek.

[HomicideHenry]

Then your delusional. Theres no way in hell the 4-0-0 Ali could have beaten Ingo. The 1964-1967 Ali, a different story altogether.

[ThatOne]

Then your delusional. Theres no way in hell the 4-0-0 Ali could have beaten Ingo. The 1964-1967 Ali, a different story altogether.

We will never know.

A relatively raw Ali beat Miteff in 1961 and a badly faded and very old Archie Moore in 1962.

All the participants but Ingo said the young Olympic champion performed brightly.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Johansson absolutely clobbers a 4-0-0 Ali. It would be hideous.

About the only more savage beating I can picture is taking both men in their primes & pitching them together. There, Ali pounds Johansson terribly. It would indeed be a mismatch of epic proportions.

Just had a random mental image of Foreman up against Johansson. Ouch

[HomicideHenry]

Johansson absolutely clobbers a 4-0-0 Ali. It would be hideous.

About the only more savage beating I can picture is taking both men in their primes & pitching them together. There, Ali pounds Johansson terribly. It would indeed be a mismatch of epic proportions.

Just had a random mental image of Foreman up against Johansson. Ouch

At least one man here has som sense about him. Good on you.

[ThatOne]

Johansson absolutely clobbers a 4-0-0 Ali. It would be hideous.

About the only more savage beating I can picture is taking both men in their primes & pitching them together. There, Ali pounds Johansson terribly. It would indeed be a mismatch of epic proportions.

Just had a random mental image of Foreman up against Johansson. Ouch

He's beating Miteff less than a year later and Archie Moore less than two years later.

What makes you gentlemen think he can't be competitive witrh Ingo?

I think Miteff would be competitive with Ingo and even a done Archie Moore gives Ingo fits.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Johansson beat a peak Patterson, for fvck's sake. This is the kind of thing --- no offense, truly --- which brings out the worst in people like Granberry, & initiates these absolutely huge flame wars we have involving Ali on this board. He had beaten no one, & proven nothing, at 4-0-0. A year is a long time at that age. The Moore who Clay fought is cannon-fodder for a peak Johansson, btw.

[ThatOne]

Johansson beat a peak Patterson, for fvck's sake. This is the kind of thing --- no offense, truly --- which brings out the worst in people like Granberry, & initiates these absolutely huge flame wars we have involving Ali on this board. He had beaten no one, & proven nothing, at 4-0-0. A year is a long time at that age. The Moore who Clay fought is cannon-fodder for a peak Johansson, btw.

Ali was already sparring with Willie Pastrano and looking good.

[Goodnight, Irene]

How much better than Machen & Patterson do you think a 4-0-0 Ali was?

There's your answer.

[ThatOne]

How much better than Machen & Patterson do you think a 4-0-0 Ali was?

There's your answer.

How many boxers did Ingo beat who had the reflexes and foot speed of a nineteen year old Ali?


Ingo should have picked up the $100.000.00:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QP6wZPuAZp8

Please don't bring up Granny. That's like asking an unrepentant Afrikanner to comment on Nelson Mandela.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Whatever you fancy. Myself, I think this kind of thing is the reason people resent Ali --- he could never be as good as his rep, even if he knocked out God. People ridiculously over-rate him in general.

[ThatOne]

Whatever you fancy. Myself, I think this kind of thing is the reason people resent Ali --- he could never be as good as his rep, even if he knocked out God. People ridiculously over-rate him in general.

I just think a prime, motivated, in shape Muhammad Ali would be at least even money against any man who put on a pair of boxing gloves.

And that's just the fighter. The reason some people hold him in such high esteem is because beside bing a boxer he was a social, political, and cultural force. That's the also reason people like granberry detest him because he represented forces they didn't and still don't like. i.e. , true emancipation for the black man.

[Goodnight, Irene]

"I just think a prime, motivated, in shape Muhammad Ali would be at least even money against any man who put on a pair of boxing gloves..."

No one should be faulted for that, as long as by, "any man," you mean at Heavyweight, because Ali isn't even-money against any fighter, pound-for-pound, in history. The sport has seen better. People get a little starry-eyed in general, though. It gets old.

[ThatOne]

"I just think a prime, motivated, in shape Muhammad Ali would be at least even money against any man who put on a pair of boxing gloves..."

No one should be faulted for that, as long as by, "any man," you mean at Heavyweight, because Ali isn't even-money against any fighter, pound-for-pound, in history. The sport has seen better. People get a little starry-eyed in general, though. It gets old.

I once saw an interesting argument on another board and the essence of the argument was that it has become as fashionable to underrate Ali among so called boxing sophisticates as it is to overrate him and the casual fan can end up misled.

Look at the front page of this board and it's arguably the most popular one. A casual fan would think Muhammad Ali couldn't fight.

[Ezzard]

It's a strong list of HWs.

I wish the Ali-Liston rematch had not been postponed. Would have been better for everyone if we'd have seen a proper fight.

Ali improved massively very quickly whioch is why Gran calls the fights fake. Anyway, I don't think such an inexperienced Ali could have beaten Ingo at that point when you look at some of the problems he had with lesser fighters. Obviously by the time Ali hit his stride Ingo would have been shut out.

[hhaehre]

Johansson beat a peak Patterson, for fvck's sake. This is the kind of thing --- no offense, truly --- which brings out the worst in people like Granberry, & initiates these absolutely huge flame wars we have involving Ali on this board. He had beaten no one, & proven nothing, at 4-0-0. A year is a long time at that age. The Moore who Clay fought is cannon-fodder for a peak Johansson, btw.

Ali was already sparring with Willie Pastrano and looking good.

Rating Ali on sparring performances eh? I wouldn't travel down that road if I were you, suddenly Lyle Alzado is even money with Foreman.

[Controversial]

Ali beat everbody on the list beside Machen and Ingo.

Gawd, can you imagine how badly 1967 Ali embarasses Ingo?

Don't tell me you're one of those who believe in the tale of a 4-0-0 Ali easily making Johansson miss when they sparred two rounds, are you? In either case, impossible, for Johansson retired one bout after his rubber match with Patterson.

You talking about this?

I think Ali was 5-0 at the time and apparently made Johnansson look silly, without really ever throwing a punch. Even though sparring is completely different to a real fight I could see Ali (or Clay as he was then) doing a number on Ingemar....even in 1961. Ingemar had 4 more fights winning all, 3 by stoppage and also won the EBU european heavyweight title.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QP6wZPuAZp8



"Ingemar Johansson was another story. The Ring Record Book doesn't list an Ali-Johansson fight, but it happened. I was there. The fight took place that same month. Ingemar was in Palm Beach training for the third Patterson fight, and someone thought it would be a great idea if he came down to Miami Beach to spar with Ali. Someone was wrong.

They were to go three rounds. Ingemar quit before the end of two. Ali didn't put a licking on him. He hardly hit him. But then he didn't try. He just came to dance. What happened was Ingemar couldn't hit Ali. And, oh, how he tried. He tried to jab him in the first round, and Ali's head wasn't there. Ingemar was steamed, so in the second round he tried to knock Ali out with his big right hand. What he nearly did was throw out his back because all he was hitting was air. So he climbed out of the ring.

I'd never seen anything like it. Still haven't. Never will. The kid—Ali was 19—undressed the man "

[HomicideHenry]

According to Johansson's autobiography he claimed Dundee was bitching at him to not throw the right hand, and Ali kept running around, and it pissed Ingo off.

[hhaehre]

Even though sparring is completely different to a real fight I could see Ali (or Clay as he was then) doing a number on Ingemar....even in 1961.

It is so completely different that in fact it means dick. Ali himself has looked like absolute crap against club fighters in sparring many times, it means nothing.

[HomicideHenry]

True, even Ali got downed from time to time from his sparring partners. I know Tony Doyle managed to land three consecutive right hooks on Ali. This was before Ali's rematch with Joe Bugner I think.