Rating the Heavyweights of the 1960s

[Controversial]

Even though sparring is completely different to a real fight I could see Ali (or Clay as he was then) doing a number on Ingemar....even in 1961.

It is so completely different that in fact it means dick. Ali himself has looked like absolute crap against club fighters in sparring many times, it means nothing.

I agree sparring means nothing, many great fighters have been decked and outboxed by club fighters in sparring.

However I still think Clay would have beaten Johansson in 1961. Ingo was pretty much a one handed puncher, quite a standup fighter, not much else to his game. Not very tall and a short reach. Clay (Ali) was susceptible to left hooks (Banks, Cooper and Frazier) not right hands. He would have danced around Ingo and circled away from his right hand and outboxed him.

Ingo was dangerous when he landed his 'ingos bingo' and unless he landed it flush on Clays chin I can't see him having enough in his arsenal to bother him too much. Clay was 10-0 by the end of 1961 and only 10 fights later made Liston look like an amateur.

[hhaehre]

Even though sparring is completely different to a real fight I could see Ali (or Clay as he was then) doing a number on Ingemar....even in 1961.

It is so completely different that in fact it means dick. Ali himself has looked like absolute crap against club fighters in sparring many times, it means nothing.

I agree sparring means nothing, many great fighters have been decked and outboxed by club fighters in sparring.

However I still think Clay would have beaten Johansson in 1961. Ingo was pretty much a one handed puncher, quite a standup fighter, not much else to his game. Not very tall and a short reach. Clay (Ali) was susceptible to left hooks (Banks, Cooper and Frazier) not right hands. He would have danced around Ingo and circled away from his right hand and outboxed him.

Ingo was dangerous when he landed his 'ingos bingo' and unless he landed it flush on Clays chin I can't see him having enough in his arsenal to bother him too much.

I think you are selling Ingo short, he had decent skills and I'd be very surprised if a totally green 5-0 Clay had the stuff to beat him in 1961. Clay did not look like a future great against Billy Daniels in 1962 and he struggled with the Dough Jones a year later, why would he have such an easy time with Ingo several years prior?

[Controversial]

I think you are selling Ingo short, he had decent skills and I'd be very surprised if a totally green 5-0 Clay had the stuff to beat him in 1961. Clay did not look like a future great against Billy Daniels in 1962 and he struggled with the Dough Jones a year later, why would he have such an easy time with Ingo several years prior?

Not selling Ingo short, he was a good puncher but he wasn't a great all round fighter. Styles makes fights and Ingo was too upright and european in his style. He was made for Clay and unless he landed his right flush I can't see him having enough to beat him. Clay was soooo fast in his early days and would've danced circles around him. Thats just my opinion.

[ThatOne]

We are talking about Ingemar Johansson not Jack Dempsey not Gene Tunney, not Rocky Marciano, not Jim Corbett but the accidental champion, Ingemar Johannson.

If anybody thinks Ingo would have had his way with Cassius Clay there is nothing I can do to disabuse you of that notion.


P.S. My point about sparring was that Ali had already sparred with ATGS like Archie Moore and Willie Pastrono. Getting in the ring with The Accidental Champion was no great shakes.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Someone needs to tell me how much better a 4-0-0 Clay was than Eddie Machen...

[HomicideHenry]

Ingemar Johansson sparked Cooper and Machen with a single blow ffs. Clay was still short of getting decked by Cooper and having issues with Doug Jones, as mentioned before. The few seconds of sparring in the video showed nothing to me, really, that could suggest that Clay could have beaten Johansson. Neither man hit eachother, and if you noticed Clay threw a punch that completely missed Johansson---in a real fight, Johansson's right hand would have uncorked and probably kayoed Clay. Patterson was a fast fighter too, darting in and out, but Johansson gave him three hard fights. The man was no accident.

A 4-0-0, 5-0-0, Muhammad Ali isnt going to beat a man who was an Olympic Silver medalist as well as a European and World champion.

[ThatOne]

According to Johansson's autobiography he claimed Dundee was bitching at him to not throw the right hand, and Ali kept running around, and it pissed Ingo off.

Ingo also made some disparaging remarks about Ali's punch. He was ashamed because Ali clowned him and if he thinks he could ever beat a fighter like Ali he needs to wake up and apologize.

[Ezzard]

This is a bit harsh guys... Like I said lesser fighters gave the maturing Clay some very hard nights.

If Jones and Cooper can give Clay problems then in 61 Ingo beats him.

[ThatOne]

Someone needs to tell me how much better a 4-0-0 Clay was than Eddie Machen...

Fights don't work that way. Just because Fighter A beat Fighter B and fighter B beat Fighter C doesn't mean figther A can beat Fighter C
and this instance Fighter B never ever beat Fighter C.

I think anvy version of Ali could beat Ingo even the done, past it, over the hill, shot 236 1/2 pound Ali that lost a UD To Trevor Berbick at thirty nine years old.

I hope you guys don't think Ingo could have beat Trevor Berbick who took prime Larry Holmes to a decision.

[ThatOne]

This is a bit harsh guys... Like I said lesser fighters gave the maturing Clay some very hard nights.

If Jones and Cooper can give Clay problems then in 61 Ingo beats him.

Ingo said Ali hits like his sister. That's harsh. With all due respect, some of these fighters can not think of themselves objectively from Chuvalo and Bugner saying they deserved decisions aganst Ali to Larry Holmes saying if his arm didn't get caught in the ropes he could have continued his fight against Mark Tyson.

And Ali thinking he could beat Larry Hokmes after a two year layoff after escaping with his life against a novice in Leon Spinks in his last fight.

Boxers are horrible judges of their own talent and their talent and ability at any given time. That's why they end up where they end up.

[Controversial]

Ingemar Johansson sparked Cooper and Machen with a single blow ffs. Clay was still short of getting decked by Cooper and having issues with Doug Jones, as mentioned before. The few seconds of sparring in the video showed nothing to me, really, that could suggest that Clay could have beaten Johansson. Neither man hit eachother, and if you noticed Clay threw a punch that completely missed Johansson---in a real fight, Johansson's right hand would have uncorked and probably kayoed Clay. Patterson was a fast fighter too, darting in and out, but Johansson gave him three hard fights. The man was no accident.

A 4-0-0, 5-0-0, Muhammad Ali isnt going to beat a man who was an Olympic Silver medalist as well as a European and World champion.

No one is denying Ingo was a ko right hand puncher but you have to land the punch first. I don't think he would have got near Clay, and even if he did whats to say Clay would've been ko'ed by it? There are too many factors in Clays favour, speed, boxing ability, jab, chin. All Ingo really had was a right hand. You can't use Patterson as a example of how Ingo would do against Clay, completely different styles and fighters.

The only chance Ingo had of beating Clay was to spark him. Something no one ever did. Yes its possible but highly unlikely in my opinion.

Remember Ingo had one fight in 1961, a ko loss.

[HomicideHenry]

Then with your rationale Clay could have beaten Johansson in his pro debut. That's just silly. There is no instance in history where its ever been done for a man to beat a worlds champion in his pro debut. At 4-0-0, you are honestly wagering your entire fighting knowledge and reputation that Muhammad Ali with less than a handful of fights could have EASILY defeated Ingemar Johansson who kayoed master fighters Eddie Machen in one round, Patterson in three, and Cooper in five?

[The Great John L]

Then with your rationale Clay could have beaten Johansson in his pro debut. That's just silly. There is no instance in history where its ever been done for a man to beat a worlds champion in his pro debut. At 4-0-0, you are honestly wagering your entire fighting knowledge and reputation that Muhammad Ali with less than a handful of fights could have EASILY defeated Ingemar Johansson who kayoed master fighters Eddie Machen in one round, Patterson in three, and Cooper in five?

HH, you're arguing against the religion of Ali.

Where is Cranberry when you need him?

[Goodnight, Irene]

Sonny Banks, Doug Jones & Henry Cooper all got near better versions of Clay. This isn't even worth discussing, it's so absurd.

ThatOne, you're not going to resort to using lines Louis did on Ali like, "wake up & apologise," surely? It was bad enough when they pinched that line for Will Smith in Ali. That was horrendous.

[HomicideHenry]

Then with your rationale Clay could have beaten Johansson in his pro debut. That's just silly. There is no instance in history where its ever been done for a man to beat a worlds champion in his pro debut. At 4-0-0, you are honestly wagering your entire fighting knowledge and reputation that Muhammad Ali with less than a handful of fights could have EASILY defeated Ingemar Johansson who kayoed master fighters Eddie Machen in one round, Patterson in three, and Cooper in five?

HH, you're arguing against the religion of Ali.

Where is Cranberry when you need him?

Hate to say it, but I think this would be a subject he actually would get support in.

[ThatOne]

Then with your rationale Clay could have beaten Johansson in his pro debut. That's just silly. There is no instance in history where its ever been done for a man to beat a worlds champion in his pro debut. At 4-0-0, you are honestly wagering your entire fighting knowledge and reputation that Muhammad Ali with less than a handful of fights could have easily defeated Ingemar Johansson who kayoed master fighters Eddie Machen in one round, Patterson in three, and Cooper in five?

No, but he could be competitive.

Spinks had seven fights when he beat Ali. But that everything to do with Ali and nothing to do with Spinks.

And it's not uncommon for atlhletes to shine in their professional debut. I can name ten athletes off the top of my head who dominated their sport fresh out of high school or college who went on to have more illustrious careers than Ingo. There's one kid from Cleveland who did just that.

[HomicideHenry]

Then with your rationale Clay could have beaten Johansson in his pro debut. That's just silly. There is no instance in history where its ever been done for a man to beat a worlds champion in his pro debut. At 4-0-0, you are honestly wagering your entire fighting knowledge and reputation that Muhammad Ali with less than a handful of fights could have easily defeated Ingemar Johansson who kayoed master fighters Eddie Machen in one round, Patterson in three, and Cooper in five?

No, but he could be competitive.

Spinks had seven fights when he beat Ali. But that everything to do with Ali and nothing to do with Spinks.

And it's not uncommon for atlhletes to shine in their professional debut. I can name ten athletes off the top of my head who dominated their sport fresh out of high school or college who went on to have more illustrious careers than Ingo. There's one kid from Cleveland who did just that.

Riiiiiiight.

[ThatOne]

Then with your rationale Clay could have beaten Johansson in his pro debut. That's just silly. There is no instance in history where its ever been done for a man to beat a worlds champion in his pro debut. At 4-0-0, you are honestly wagering your entire fighting knowledge and reputation that Muhammad Ali with less than a handful of fights could have easily defeated Ingemar Johansson who kayoed master fighters Eddie Machen in one round, Patterson in three, and Cooper in five?

No, but he could be competitive.

Spinks had seven fights when he beat Ali. But that everything to do with Ali and nothing to do with Spinks.

And it's not uncommon for atlhletes to shine in their professional debut. I can name ten athletes off the top of my head who dominated their sport fresh out of high school or college who went on to have more illustrious careers than Ingo. There's one kid from Cleveland who did just that.

Riiiiiiight.

[ThatOne]

Is the challenge I can't name ten athletes who dominated their sport fresh out of high school or college?


Or that I couldn't name a novice who won a big fight because I did.

[raylawpc]

Is the challenge I can't name ten athletes who dominated their sport fresh out of high school or college?

Don't just say you can do it, do it . . .

[raylawpc]

Ingemar Johansson sparked Cooper and Machen with a single blow ffs. Clay was still short of getting decked by Cooper and having issues with Doug Jones, as mentioned before. The few seconds of sparring in the video showed nothing to me, really, that could suggest that Clay could have beaten Johansson. Neither man hit eachother, and if you noticed Clay threw a punch that completely missed Johansson---in a real fight, Johansson's right hand would have uncorked and probably kayoed Clay. Patterson was a fast fighter too, darting in and out, but Johansson gave him three hard fights. The man was no accident.

A 4-0-0, 5-0-0, Muhammad Ali isnt going to beat a man who was an Olympic Silver medalist as well as a European and World champion.

I agree. Its hard for me to see the circa 1961 Clay that I've seen on film beat an experienced and ring savvy former champion like Johansson. Prime v. prime, Ali was clearly the superior fighter, but not the 1961 Clay.

[ThatOne]

Is the challenge I can't name ten athletes who dominated their sport fresh out of high school or college?

Don't just say you can do it, do it . . .

Wilt Chamberlain

Gayle Sayers

Dick "Night Train" Lane

Michael Jordan

Shaquille O'Neal

Tony Esposito

Magic Johnson

Lew AlCindor

Joe DiMaggio

Frank Robinson

Would you like ten more?

In five of those cases the athletes are cited were just so much more physically gifted than their peers.

As A.J. Liebling so famously said ""Honest effort and sterling character backed by solid instruction will carry a man a good way, but unearned natural ability has a lot to be said for it."

[HomicideHenry]

Team sports and combat sports is two different worlds...

Pete Rademacher attempted it, failed miserably. Leon Spinks faced a man in the twilight of his career and possibly developing Parkinson's Syndrome, which is no big feat, for I can name a number of contenders who could have done the same feat at that time. Simply put anyone at that juncture could have defeated Ali on the night Spinks did, even Johansson.

A novice Ali, just fresh out of the Olympics, wouldnt, couldnt, beat Johansson just a few months removed from his reign as champion. What you propose is beyond ridiculous. Name any other fighter in the world who could do what you are saying, minus Spinks, and I will personally kiss your ass.

[ThatOne]

Team sports and combat sports is two different worlds...
Pete Rademacher attempted it, failed miserably. Leon Spinks faced a man in the twilight of his career and possibly developing Parkinson's Syndrome, which is no big feat, for I can name a number of contenders who could have done the same feat at that time. Simply put anyone at that juncture could have defeated Ali on the night Spinks did, even Johansson.

A novice Ali, just fresh out of the Olympics, wouldnt, couldnt, beat Johansson just a few months removed from his reign as champion. What you propose is beyond ridiculous. Name any other fighter in the world who could do what you are saying, minus Spinks, and I will personally kiss your ass.

Raylawpc asked me for a list.

So you don't think there have been unremarkable champions that could be beat by relatively green ATGS. I am sure you can think of unremarkable champions who could have been took by a young Ali, a young Tyson, a young Ray Robinson, or a young Ray Leonard.

[Ezzard]

The whole point is that a fighter starting out hasn’t developed the necessary maturity to deal with what’s happening in the ring. They may have the physical gifts but think about how many questions would be going through a young Clay’s head? He’s going to be in totally new territory. First pro fight alone is something. Going past 3 rounds for the first time. Going past 10 rounds etc… what happens when Ingo lands a decent shot? Ali was a physical specimen but as ever the mental side of the sport is being totally overlooked. It’s completely short-sighted and derogatory to think that world class professionals can be beaten so “easily” by opponents with talent and no experience.

Basketball and football and all those other sports are essentially the same at all levels. The difference between amateur boxing and pro boxing is huge.

I actually think this has become a bit of a silly thread which is a shame because Mr E started it with a good observation.