Rating the Heavyweights of the 1960s

[Controversial]

To justify Ingo winning the decision would mean you think Ingo was the better boxer and capable of outboxing Clay. He wasn't the better boxer and he wouldn't outbox him either. His one and only chance of beating Clay would be to stop him. If he doesn't stop him then he losses.

Jeez, by that logic Marciano was a better boxer than Charles as he did gain a decision over him.

But Ingo isn't Marciano is he? Again you are making comparisons to other fighters to prove your point. It doesn't work like that. Nothing I have seen of Ingo shows me he was capable of outboxing or outpointing Clay. Without a ko blow he would lose.

[HomicideHenry]

Where do you rank Johansson over all in the list of ATG HW's ?

[ThatOne]

I added a question to the first one.

1st question) Could a prime Ingo beat a raw Ali?

2nd question) Could a prime Ingo beat a done but fit Ali (second Spinks fight)?

[ThatOne]

Where do you rank Johansson over all in the list of ATG HW's ?

Based on his long title reign?

[hhaehre]

To justify Ingo winning the decision would mean you think Ingo was the better boxer and capable of outboxing Clay. He wasn't the better boxer and he wouldn't outbox him either. His one and only chance of beating Clay would be to stop him. If he doesn't stop him then he losses.

Jeez, by that logic Marciano was a better boxer than Charles as he did gain a decision over him.

But Ingo isn't Marciano is he? Again you are making comparisons to other fighters to prove your point. It doesn't work like that. Nothing I have seen of Ingo shows me he was capable of outboxing or outpointing Clay. Without a ko blow he would lose.

The point is that a superior boxer can be outpointed by an inferior boxer. You seem to think this cannot happen.

[hhaehre]

I added a question to the first one.

1st question) Could a prime Ingo beat a raw Ali?

2nd question) Could a prime Ingo beat a done but fit Ali (second Spinks fight)?

No and no imo.

[ThatOne]

Out of the fifty or so heavyweight champions since John L Sullivan I reckon there might be a handful Ingo could beat- Carnera, Spinks, and Ruiz come to mind.

[ThatOne]

I added a question to the first one.

1st question) Could a prime Ingo beat a raw Ali?

2nd question) Could a prime Ingo beat a done but fit Ali (second Spinks fight)?

No and no imo.

Thank you for respecting the done but fit Ali of Spinks ll. That would have been a great place to end his career.

[HomicideHenry]

Where do you rank Johansson over all in the list of ATG HW's ?

Based on his long title reign?

Based on his overall career and accomplishments as an amateur and pro.

[ThatOne]

Where do you rank Johansson over all in the list of ATG HW's ?

Based on his long title reign?

Based on his overall career and accomplishments as an amateur and pro.

How do you rate him?

I don't see him beating any other heavyweight champ since Sullivan with the exception of a handful and I can think of many non-champs who would have beat him.

[The Great John L]

Ummm, yes. I think the Tyson from Tokyo stops the amatuer version of Henry Tillman pretty quickly and I'm pretty confident that there are few people who would contest that. Did you actually see Tyson fight as an amatuer?

Don't you realise there is a HUGE difference between amateur boxing and pro boxing? You talking chalk and cheese, the two results are not comparable. So are you suggesting if Tillman fought Tyson in his debut he would have beaten him?

As stated before amateur results means NOTHING. Amateur boxing is about point scoring, big gloves, headgear, short rounds and over eager refs who stop the action when a big punch is landed. Amateur boxing is far more suited to technically sound boxers, not sluggers or knockout artists.

Lots of great pros had awful amateur careers, and lots of great amateurs had awful pro careers. Your argument is totally flawed.

Pal, you're the one that said an 18yo Tyson could have beaten Buster Douglas and was a better fighter than the Tyson that fought in Tokyo. Tyson turned pro when he was 19. Perhaps you need to revisit your own posts.

Your argument isn't flawed, it's not even an argument because you're contradicting yourself.

[hhaehre]

I added a question to the first one.

1st question) Could a prime Ingo beat a raw Ali?

2nd question) Could a prime Ingo beat a done but fit Ali (second Spinks fight)?

No and no imo.

Thank you for respecting the done but fit Ali of Spinks ll. That would have been a great place to end his career.

I must be getting cross eyed or something, yes and yes was what I meant to say.

[ThatOne]

Here's a list of the heavyweight champs since The Great John L?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_he ... _champions


Most of them beat Ingo.


Could he beat Tommy Morrison?

[Controversial]

The point is that a superior boxer can be outpointed by an inferior boxer. You seem to think this cannot happen.

No I never said that. Of course fighters with limited skills can beat better boxers, it happens all the time. You used the argument that because Marciano beat Charles means that Ingo would beat Clay. Thats an absurd statement.

If Ingo couldn't ko Clay I cannot see how he would win a decision. Your forgetting Ingo didn't have a particularly great chin plus was shorter than Clay and he had a very short reach. He also wasn't known for his fitness levels. In 1961 he one fight (ko loss) and in 1960 he had one fight (ko loss). To me that doesn't bode well for a winning formula against Clay in 1961.

Ingo was very upright and european in his style and he pawed with his left. He wasn't a great pressure fighter and thats what would have been needed t given Clay problems.

[HomicideHenry]

Honestly? I rate him as one of the greatest HW punchers of all time. I rate him as one of the better European HW's of all time. He kinda reminded me of a Baer type. Rarely in a dull fight. I wouldnt put him in the HW top 15, but certainly the top 20. His was a style that could have given Ali trouble, as Baer could have given Ali some trouble. I think Ingo could have beaten alot of Ali's opponents, like Lubbers, Lewis, Foster, Dunne, etc.

I think Ingo could have beaten the 5-0-0 Ali of 1961 as well as the Ali of the 1977-1980. One was too green, the other too worn. I think even the Ali of the 1970-1975, 1964-1967, would have had a game fight out of Ingo, though Johansson would have lost to those versions, possibly in miserable outcomes.

[ThatOne]

The Ali of the second Spinks fight was too tough, too well trained, too motivated, too ring wise to be beat by any version of Ingo. Even though he was a shell of himself at that point in his career he still could take a punch and his left jab and right lead were still dangerous.

Ali by TKO over Ingo in 12.

[ThatOne]

Honestly? I rate him as one of the greatest HW punchers of all time. I rate him as one of the better European HW's of all time. He kinda reminded me of a Baer type. Rarely in a dull fight. I wouldnt put him in the HW top 15, but certainly the top 20. His was a style that could have given Ali trouble, as Baer could have given Ali some trouble. I think Ingo could have beaten alot of Ali's opponents, like Lubbers, Lewis, Foster, Dunne, etc.

I think Ingo could have beaten the 5-0-0 Ali of 1961 as well as the Ali of the 1977-1980. One was too green, the other too worn. I think even the Ali of the 1970-1975, 1964-1967, would have had a game fight out of Ingo, though Johansson would have lost to those versions, possibly in miserable outcomes.

There are fifty or so hw champs. I really don't think Ingo could beat thirty of them to make him top twenty.

[Controversial]

Ummm, yes. I think the Tyson from Tokyo stops the amatuer version of Henry Tillman pretty quickly and I'm pretty confident that there are few people who would contest that. Did you actually see Tyson fight as an amatuer?

Don't you realise there is a HUGE difference between amateur boxing and pro boxing? You talking chalk and cheese, the two results are not comparable. So are you suggesting if Tillman fought Tyson in his debut he would have beaten him?

As stated before amateur results means NOTHING. Amateur boxing is about point scoring, big gloves, headgear, short rounds and over eager refs who stop the action when a big punch is landed. Amateur boxing is far more suited to technically sound boxers, not sluggers or knockout artists.

Lots of great pros had awful amateur careers, and lots of great amateurs had awful pro careers. Your argument is totally flawed.

Pal, you're the one that said an 18yo Tyson could have beaten Buster Douglas and was a better fighter than the Tyson that fought in Tokyo. Tyson turned pro when he was 19. Perhaps you need to revisit your own posts.

Your argument isn't flawed, it's not even an argument because you're contradicting yourself.

Firstly I said the 18 year old Tyson would have been more competitive than the out of shape, one punch, no head movement version that turned up in Tokyo. I didn't say he would beat him but I could see him being more competitive.

Secondly I think your find he was 18. He was born June 1966 and he turned pro in March 1985. He was 19 in June of that year. Perhaps you need to polish up on your math.

[ThatOne]

One hundred greatest punchers.

99) Ingo


http://boxing.about.com/od/history/a/ring_punchers.htm

[HomicideHenry]

Honestly? I rate him as one of the greatest HW punchers of all time. I rate him as one of the better European HW's of all time. He kinda reminded me of a Baer type. Rarely in a dull fight. I wouldnt put him in the HW top 15, but certainly the top 20. His was a style that could have given Ali trouble, as Baer could have given Ali some trouble. I think Ingo could have beaten alot of Ali's opponents, like Lubbers, Lewis, Foster, Dunne, etc.

I think Ingo could have beaten the 5-0-0 Ali of 1961 as well as the Ali of the 1977-1980. One was too green, the other too worn. I think even the Ali of the 1970-1975, 1964-1967, would have had a game fight out of Ingo, though Johansson would have lost to those versions, possibly in miserable outcomes.

There are fifty or so hw champs. I really don't think Ingo could beat thirty of them to make him top twenty.

Ingo could certainly have beaten the likes of the WBA trinket holders of the last decade. Ingo certainly could beat many of the WBO title holders of the last decade as well. That wipes out a good portion of those 50+ so-called heavyweight "champions". The difference is Ingo was an UNDISPUTED champion, while these guys cant even unify or hold on to a belt longer than one defense. TRUE, Ingo lost his title right back to Patterson, but I dont know of a man who tried harder to win it back----14 knock downs in 3 fights is quite a feat.

[hhaehre]

The Ali of the second Spinks fight was too tough, too well trained, too motivated, too ring wise to be beat by any version of Ingo. Even though he was a shell of himself at that point in his career he still could take a punch and his left jab and right lead were still dangerous.

Ali by TKO over Ingo in 12.

Ali didn't have any power left in 78, no hw champion would have been knocked out by that version of Ali. He could have outpointed Ingo if Ingo had gassed late in the fight but since we are talking about a prime Ingo I assume that he would be in shape to go the distance. Easy ud for Ingo with Ali taking some huge right hands in the process.

[ThatOne]

Honestly? I rate him as one of the greatest HW punchers of all time. I rate him as one of the better European HW's of all time. He kinda reminded me of a Baer type. Rarely in a dull fight. I wouldnt put him in the HW top 15, but certainly the top 20. His was a style that could have given Ali trouble, as Baer could have given Ali some trouble. I think Ingo could have beaten alot of Ali's opponents, like Lubbers, Lewis, Foster, Dunne, etc.

I think Ingo could have beaten the 5-0-0 Ali of 1961 as well as the Ali of the 1977-1980. One was too green, the other too worn. I think even the Ali of the 1970-1975, 1964-1967, would have had a game fight out of Ingo, though Johansson would have lost to those versions, possibly in miserable outcomes.

There are fifty or so hw champs. I really don't think Ingo could beat thirty of them to make him top twenty.

Ingo could certainly have beaten the likes of the WBA trinket holders of the last decade. Ingo certainly could beat many of the WBO title holders of the last decade as well. That wipes out a good portion of those 50+ so-called heavyweight "champions". The difference is Ingo was an UNDISPUTED champion, while these guys cant even unify or hold on to a belt longer than one defense. TRUE, Ingo lost his title right back to Patterson, but I dont know of a man who tried harder to win it back----14 knock downs in 3 fights is quite a feat.

Do you think Ingo could beat Wlad and Vitali?


How about Leennox Lewis?

[HomicideHenry]

The Ali of the second Spinks fight was too tough, too well trained, too motivated, too ring wise to be beat by any version of Ingo. Even though he was a shell of himself at that point in his career he still could take a punch and his left jab and right lead were still dangerous.

Ali by TKO over Ingo in 12.

Are you blind? The Spinks-Ali rematch was one of the biggest bores in HW history. Spinks was a drug addict and Ali still went 15 rounds with the novice. It was an awful, long, boring fight. TKO in the 12th my ass, if Neon Leon could get pasted in 3 rounds by Holmes and 1 round by Coetzee after his bouts with Ali, then damn it Ingemar Johansson would have STOPPED Muhammad Ali.

[HomicideHenry]

Do you think Ingo could beat Wlad and Vitali?


How about Leennox Lewis?

Which version of Wlad and Vitali are we talking here? Besides, thats only 2 of the so-called 30 you said Ingo couldnt beat. I'm sure Ingo could bounce Arreola and Minto and all these other so-called HW contenders just as easily as the Klitschko's because the contenders today are no talent bums and hacks. Wlad could be kayoed by Johansson, because Wlad's been kayoed by less talented fighters than Johansson. Vitali on the other hand, that would have been interesting to see---V. Klitschko TKO 11th or 12th round over Johansson, but a competitive fight all the way.

Lennox Lewis I have rated #11, right behind Larry Holmes. Ingemar Johansson may have a punchers chance, but thats about it. If Rahman could stop Lewis and so could McCall, and if a faded Tyson could land a haymaker and make Lewis wobble---Johansson has that punchers chance.

[ThatOne]

The Ali of the second Spinks fight was too tough, too well trained, too motivated, too ring wise to be beat by any version of Ingo. Even though he was a shell of himself at that point in his career he still could take a punch and his left jab and right lead were still dangerous.

Ali by TKO over Ingo in 12.

Are you blind? The Spinks-Ali rematch was one of the biggest bores in HW history. Spinks was a drug addict and Ali still went 15 rounds with the novice. It was an awful, long, boring fight. TKO in the 12th my ass, if Neon Leon could get pasted in 3 rounds by Holmes and 1 round by Coetzee after his bouts with Ali, then damn it Ingemar Johansson would have STOPPED Muhammad Ali.

If Ali was so easy to stop why couldn't Trevor Berbick stop a soon to be forty year old Ali?

Why couldn't Shavers who hit a lot, lot , lot harder than Ingo stop Ali? That fight was about a year before?

Look at the bombs to the head Shavers was landing and then watch Ali come back to almost knock out Shavers:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-Yi-7YdmtU

Ingo's Bingo ain't stopping him.

Every fan knows just because Fighter A beats Fighter B and Fighter B beast Fighter C that Fighter A doesn't ipso facto beat Fighter C. If that was the case Muhammad Ali would have never beat George Foreman.