Smokin Joe V Lennox Lewis And Evander Holyfield

[ThatOne]

Smokin Joe was a great fighter who would have shined in any era. His work rate was unsurpassed. There were no rest periods with him. I like him against any heavyweight in modern history except George Foreman and possibly Joe Louis. Joe Louis said he didn't like to be pressed and nobody would have pressed him like Joe Frazier.

I think prime Joe beats other top ten fighters like Liston, Holmes, and Marciano. I do think a primer, focused Lenox Lewis and Evander Holyfield would do well against him. I have to think if they could beat him. The reason I make Lennox even money is because he was just so big and skilled. Joe beat lots of fighters bigger than him. Heck most of his opponents were bigger than him. But Joe never beat anybody that much bigger than him and that skilled. Ali was a terrific fighter but not the most "skilled" one. The reason I make Holyfield even money is because of his performances against Tyson- tieing up the smaller man whenver he got close.

[dempseyfire]

Holyfield's style is tailor-made for Frazier. Frazier by solid UD after dropping Holyfield late.

I think you are over-rating Lennox's skill . . .Lewis's stamina was not great but rarely tested. Frazier would survive some big shots early but by the middle-late rounds he'd have Lennox worn down by the constant pressure. If Lennox chooses to fight, he gets TKO'd. If he chooses to clinch, he could survive to lose the decision.

[Syntax Error]

Frazier -v- Holyfield is one of my favourite imagined fights!

I think those 2 guys would have fought one hell of a war, with Frazier coming from behind to nick a close decision.

Frazier -v- Lewis is a tougher one to gauge.

You can only really talk about Lewis post McCall 1: the more methodical & cautious one who paced himself better (except Rahman 1 of course).

The pre McCall 1 Lewis would have been cannon fodder for Frazier, as he was too reckless, but post McCall 1 Lewis would have been a tough opponent I feel.

Lewis was always devastating when he sensed danger & he would have been really up for somone of Frazier's calibre.

You also have to factor in Lewis' strength. Lewis was one of the strongest HWs of all-time. His physical strength was possibly even greater than Foreman's & it was Foreman's strength that allowed him to subdue Frazier's aggression.

Saying all that, I still lean towards a Frazier decision, possibly with Joe having to endure one or two rocky moments.

[ThatOne]

I'm not picking either to win or lose but Lennox is so big and strong and skilled. He would be up there with Ali and Foreman as his most difficult foes.

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I'm not picking either to win or lose but Lennox is so big and strong and skilled. He would be up there with Ali and Foreman as his most difficult foes.

Absolutely; long reach, great power & massive physical strength.

Joe would have earned his pay cheque against Lewis!!! DD

[jezzamundo]

I see Frazier beating Holyfield by a close but clear decision in a very good fight. Frazier's constant workrate would be too much for Evander who even at his best had a tendency to take rounds off. Frazier by unanimous decision.

Assuming it is prime-for-prime, I absolutely pick Lewis to stop Frazier in the middle rounds. Lennox was more vulnerable to right hands that left hooks, which he usually blocked consistently. He would also have a big size and strength advantage over Joe, I can see him fighting cautiously but eventually wearing Frazier down and putting him down repeatedly with straight rights and uppercuts around round 8. Lewis TKO8.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Frazier stops both, but the potential is there (moreso with Lewis, IMO) for him to drop both fights. Someone above me mentioned Holyfield often took rounds off in hard fights here & there --- true, & critical to my thinking that Frazier wins a narrow decision over twelve, & stops Holyfield in the latter stages of a fifteen-rounder.

People are usually more willing to acknowledge & elaborate on the significant problems Lewis would present Frazier with, & they're all legitimate points, but the reverse is plenty true as well. A near-peak Lewis could barely keep pace with an overweight Mercer --- a short, pressure fighter, with a big punch, plenty of chin & loads of heart. Frazier was twenty times the man Mercer was. Work-rate would be a crucial issue for Lewis. He would have to win on the strength of a high jab output, & lots of leaning, with perhaps a big overhand right coming into play. If the two get down to fighting & fighting hard, as I suspect they would at some point, Frazier's going to get the best of it on the strength of endurance & durability --- two areas where Frazier is almost immeasurably superior to Lewis.

[HomicideHenry]

Frazier, imo, mops the floor with the HW's today, thats for sure. As for Holyfield and Lewis, those would be interesting match ups. When I think of Lewis-Frazier, I recall that first round with Tyson and he had Lewis dazed for a brief moment. If Tyson been more to himself, and followed it up, he could have dropped Lewis; and that was supposedly the best performance of Lewis's life, the best he ever was or could be. Frazier, imo, stops Lewis inside of seven or eight rounds.

Now, on to Holyfield. THAT would be a fight. Holyfield's rapid fire combinations, counters, against the ever busy Frazier who was all about pressure and that counter left hook. It certainly goes the distance, imo. Call me crazy, but it does. Holyfield could take punishment, as could Frazier. Both men were unbelievably conditioned. Both had power, and both had a resolve seldom matched. I think, however, Holyfield was the more complete fighter, and edges Frazier on points.

[Goodnight, Irene]

It certainly goes the distance over twelve --- &, quite possibly, over fifteen. My gut says Frazier exhausts him shortly before the final bell in the latter scenario, though. Holyfield does have a very wide raw strength advantage over Frazier, who was not strong at all.

[Ezzard]

I see Frazier beating Holyfield by a close but clear decision in a very good fight. Frazier's constant workrate would be too much for Evander who even at his best had a tendency to take rounds off. Frazier by unanimous decision.

Assuming it is prime-for-prime, I absolutely pick Lewis to stop Frazier in the middle rounds. Lennox was more vulnerable to right hands that left hooks, which he usually blocked consistently. He would also have a big size and strength advantage over Joe, I can see him fighting cautiously but eventually wearing Frazier down and putting him down repeatedly with straight rights and uppercuts around round 8. Lewis TKO8.

I mostly agree with jezz

His analysis on lewis is spot on. I could see Frazier winning because lewis would not be able to kepp up the pace BUT I would bet on Lewis scoring an early KO win knowing that Joe started slow.

[dempseyfire]

It certainly goes the distance over twelve --- &, quite possibly, over fifteen. My gut says Frazier exhausts him shortly before the final bell in the latter scenario, though. Holyfield does have a very wide raw strength advantage over Frazier, who was not strong at all.

Please don't say you are basing Frazier's supposed 'weakness' on his performance in the ABC 'Superstars' sports competition. The guy stood and won on the inside with the likes of Ali, Bonavena, Bugner, Quarry etc. and Holyfield has a huge strength advantage?

[Goodnight, Irene]

Frazier won his clinches with Bonavena (a strong Heavyweight, obviously) with work-rate, not by bulling him. I fancy Holyfield's ability to out-muscle Tyson bodes well against Frazier, unless you think Frazier was stronger than Tyson. One look at their physiques (yes, that obviously doesn't always tell the story, but it's a pretty damn good indicator on the whole) says otherwise.

At any rate, I think we're in agreement on what counts. Frazier bests Holyfield. It's a five-star battle, incidentally. I've often wondered just how Frazier would respond to Holyfield's butting.

[dempseyfire]

If work-rate enabled you to sit on the inside with much stronger men, then Andre Berto could win on the inside with Tomaz Adamek.

Tyson was infamously bad on the inside, he let guys tie him up at will . . .small flabby Mathis Jr even had success crowding Tyson on the inside. Evander was certainly a strong guy, but him having success tying Tyson up doesn't really say much. I think Frazier, who was naturally the thicker, bigger man, has no strength disadvantage here.

[ThatOne]

It certainly goes the distance over twelve --- &, quite possibly, over fifteen. My gut says Frazier exhausts him shortly before the final bell in the latter scenario, though. Holyfield does have a very wide raw strength advantage over Frazier, who was not strong at all.

Please don't say you are basing Frazier's supposed 'weakness' on his performance in the ABC 'Superstars' sports competition. The guy stood and won on the inside with the likes of Ali, Bonavena, Bugner, Quarry etc. and Holyfield has a huge strength advantage?

I am not convinced Frazier was stronger than Ali. Even Ali's harshest critics conceded that Ali was great at clinching and tieing up fighters using his superior height and leverage to tie up his opponents on the inside as he did with Frazier in their rematch at the Garden, with Foreman in Zaire, and countless other fighters.
Didn't Frazier's people complain that Ali held Frazier one hundred twenty plus times.As far back as 65 Henry Cooper observed that Ali had mastered the art of clinching. For the most part Ali was able to bully alll his opponents despite the impression of being a "Fancy Dan". Ken Norton who fought both Foreman and Ali said Ali was stronger. Watch the Rumble In The Jungle. Ali's putting Foreman in headlocks, pressing his head down and resting on it in the clinches, et cetera. That's why Holmes said if Ali wants to wrestle him when they fight he's game.

Strength isn't just about size. It's about technique and leverage. That's why Ali was able to tie up Ken Norton who had the physique of a bodybuilder and the naturally powerful George Foreman.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I'm not convinced Frazier was stronger than Ali, either, but don't take Norton's word too seriously. He had plenty of experience in the clinch with Ali (where he held his own), but he was in the ring with Foreman for fewer than five minutes, & they barely held.

[ThatOne]

I'm not convinced Frazier was stronger than Ali, either, but don't take Norton's word too seriously. He had plenty of experience in the clinch with Ali (where he held his own), but he was in the ring with Foreman for fewer than five minutes, & they barely held.

I have to rewatch that fight. It won't take long . I don't know why Norton didn't try to tie up Foreman when Foreman had him in trouble. He tried to box his way out of trouble That's where ring generalship and instinct comes in.

[The Great John L]

I'm not convinced Frazier was stronger than Ali, either, but don't take Norton's word too seriously. He had plenty of experience in the clinch with Ali (where he held his own), but he was in the ring with Foreman for fewer than five minutes, & they barely held.

I have to rewatch that fight. It won't take long . I don't know why Norton didn't try to tie up Foreman when Foreman had him in trouble. He tried to box his way out of trouble That's where ring generalship and instinct comes in.

Yep, and that's why Norton had trouble with punchers. His chin wasn't that bad, it was his inability to react properly when hurt that cuased him some embarassing moments.