Rating the Heavyweights of the 1960s

[The Great John L]

Firstly I said the 18 year old Tyson would have been more competitive than the out of shape, one punch, no head movement version that turned up in Tokyo. I didn't say he would beat him but I could see him being more competitive.

Secondly I think your find he was 18. He was born June 1966 and he turned pro in March 1985. He was 19 in June of that year. Perhaps you need to polish up on your math.

Oh yes, my mistake. Of course the 18yo fresh off of his fourth victory was certainly vastly superior to the totally inept 37 fight pro who had fought and beaten virtually very top HW on the planet. Yes, my logic was flawed, but you have enlightened me to the limitless skills and experience that the 18yo (soon to be 19yo) Tyson had acquired after disposing of 4 top HWs before his 19th birthday. Silly me to think that fighting and beating 37 HWs, including most of the top HWs in the world actually taught Tyson anything.

My only remaining question is why his management wasted time fighting anybody after his fourth fight. Why didn't they just put him in the ring with Holmes then? Any ideas?

[ThatOne]

And to use your logic Shavers gave a true ATG and consensus top five heavyweight almighty Hell after losing to a fading Ali.

[ThatOne]

Firstly I said the 18 year old Tyson would have been more competitive than the out of shape, one punch, no head movement version that turned up in Tokyo. I didn't say he would beat him but I could see him being more competitive.

Secondly I think your find he was 18. He was born June 1966 and he turned pro in March 1985. He was 19 in June of that year. Perhaps you need to polish up on your math.

Oh yes, my mistake. Of course the 18yo fresh off of his fourth victory was certainly vastly superior to the totally inept 37 fight pro who had fought and beaten virtually very top HW on the planet. Yes, my logic was flawed, but you have enlightened me to the limitless skills and experience that the 18yo (soon to be 19yo) Tyson had acquired after disposing of 4 top HWs before his 19th birthday. Silly me to think that fighting and beating 37 HWs, including most of the top HWs in the world actually taught Tyson anything.

My only remaining question is why his management wasted time fighting anybody after his fourth fight. Why didn't they just put him in the ring with Holmes then? Any ideas?

Because you are supposed to bring a fighter up slowly.


This whole thread is about the theoretical proposition that a done or raw Ali could beat Prime Ingo. I say it's not inconceievable.

[HomicideHenry]

The Ali of the second Spinks fight was too tough, too well trained, too motivated, too ring wise to be beat by any version of Ingo. Even though he was a shell of himself at that point in his career he still could take a punch and his left jab and right lead were still dangerous.

Ali by TKO over Ingo in 12.

Are you blind? The Spinks-Ali rematch was one of the biggest bores in HW history. Spinks was a drug addict and Ali still went 15 rounds with the novice. It was an awful, long, boring fight. TKO in the 12th my ass, if Neon Leon could get pasted in 3 rounds by Holmes and 1 round by Coetzee after his bouts with Ali, then damn it Ingemar Johansson would have STOPPED Muhammad Ali.

If Ali was so easy to stop why couldn't Trevor Berbick stop a soon to be forty year old Ali?

Why couldn't Shavers who hit a lot, lot , lot harder than Ingo stop Ali? That fight was about a year before?

Every fan knows just because Fighter A beats Fighter B and Fighter B beast Fighter C that Fighter A doesn't ipso facto beat Fighter C. If that was the case Muhammad Ali would have never beat George Foreman.

Shavers' stamina and conditioning sucked thats why. Also, Ali pretended he wasnt hurt and made Shavers think twice. Had Shavers just went in for the kill, he would have kayoed Ali in the 2nd round. Shavers had a hard time following up attacks throughout his career as it was anyways, he couldnt do it to Holmes either---also it was a split decision (Ali/Shavers) in which some felt Earnie should have won it, as Ali was the only one hurt in the fight.

Trevor Berbick, in an interview, said he felt a sympathy for Ali, and questioned himself if he could really, honestly hurt his hero, and said he decided to stick to the body and thats what he did. The constant body blows, instead of heart stopping head punches, sealed the deal and the decision for Berbick who didnt want to hurt his idol and be branded a villian like the public did to Larry Holmes.

So, again, what you're saying is the 5-0-0 Ali was a grade A fighter who could have beaten not only Ingo but Liston and Patterson as well? That Ingo in 1961 is grade C compared to 5-0-0 Muhammad Ali, and Liston and Patterson as well might be grade B?

[The Great John L]

Because you are supposed to bring a fighter up slowly.


This whole thread is about the theoretical proposition that a done or raw Ali could beat Prime Ingo. I say it's not inconceievable.

I wasn't addressing the Ali/Ingo topic, but the 18yo Tyson could have ruled the HW division topic.

Sorry to interfere with your discussion.

[ThatOne]

It was a unanimous decision over Shavers.

The only Ali Ingo stops is the dehydrated and done Ali of the Holmes fight. Ali of Spinks ll has enough left in the tank to beat Ingo. Ingo probably beats the done but not dehydrated Ali of the Berbick fight in a desultory decision.

History is on my side. Ali was stopped once in a twenty five year pro and amateur career. Ingo isn't going to be the second.

[ThatOne]

Because you are supposed to bring a fighter up slowly.


This whole thread is about the theoretical proposition that a done or raw Ali could beat Prime Ingo. I say it's not inconceievable.

I wasn't addressing the Ali/Ingo topic, but the 18yo Tyson could have ruled the HW division topic.

Sorry to interfere with your discussion.

You didn't interfere.

I have my hands full with the other topic.

[The Great John L]

You didn't interfere.

I have my hands full with the other topic.

It looks like you're doing fine.

[ThatOne]

I have a question.

According to all the witnesses Ali embarrassed Ingo. The only one who disagrees was Ingo. Harold Conrad, the famed promoter and writer was there as well as SI reporter, Gil Rogin. What are we to conclude?

a) they are all lying

b) Ingo wasn't really trying

c) Ingo had no answer for Ali's style. It wasn't a style he was accustomed to

d) other

[Controversial]

Firstly I said the 18 year old Tyson would have been more competitive than the out of shape, one punch, no head movement version that turned up in Tokyo. I didn't say he would beat him but I could see him being more competitive.

Secondly I think your find he was 18. He was born June 1966 and he turned pro in March 1985. He was 19 in June of that year. Perhaps you need to polish up on your math.

Oh yes, my mistake. Of course the 18yo fresh off of his fourth victory was certainly vastly superior to the totally inept 37 fight pro who had fought and beaten virtually very top HW on the planet. Yes, my logic was flawed, but you have enlightened me to the limitless skills and experience that the 18yo (soon to be 19yo) Tyson had acquired after disposing of 4 top HWs before his 19th birthday. Silly me to think that fighting and beating 37 HWs, including most of the top HWs in the world actually taught Tyson anything.

My only remaining question is why his management wasted time fighting anybody after his fourth fight. Why didn't they just put him in the ring with Holmes then? Any ideas?

Your deliberately missing the point. The argument was that just because someone is inexperienced doesn't mean they cannot be competitive. Im not saying Tyson was experienced after 4 fights. The point was as a fighter Tyson at 18 was a more dangerous opponent than the version that fought in Tokyo. He was a shadow of himself in Tokyo, out of shape, one dimensional and unmotivated. The complete opposite to what he was when he turned pro. The fact that Tyson was 37-0 and had cleaned out the division meant nothing that night he was awful. An 18 year old Tyson would have given a better fight IMO.

[ThatOne]

"Shavers' stamina and conditioning sucked thats why"

Ingo wasn't always the most conditioned fighter either.

[HomicideHenry]

It was a unanimous decision over Shavers.

The only Ali Ingo stops is the dehydrated and done Ali of the Holmes fight. Ali of Spinks ll has enough left in the tank to beat Ingo. Ingo probably beats the done but not dehydrated Ali of the Spinks fight in a desultory decision.

History is on my side. Ali was stopped once in a twenty five year pro and amateur career. Ingo isn't going to be the second.

My bad, 9-6 on two cards, 9-5-1 on the third. Sorry. None the less, Shavers could have kayoed Ali in the 2nd round had he just followed it up, then we wouldnt been talking this bullshit right now---it was Shavers own doing, not some grand scheme Ali managed. Ali won on pure dumb freak luck, even he said he was unconscious from that second round onward, not remembering a damn thing.

Anyways----history is full of crap----and theres no way you or I can prove either of our theories is correct, you may "win" the argument only because history showed that Ali became a great fighter---but in 1961 who would have damn guessed, he was 5-0-0 and wasnt fighting, he was running!

[ThatOne]

So now the question is could raw Mike Tyson and raw Muhammad Ali beat done versions of themselves? I would say yea to the former and no to the latter based on the various styles and the ring wisdom gained by both boxers.

[HomicideHenry]

"Shavers' stamina and conditioning sucked thats why"

Ingo wasn't always the most conditioned fighter either.

Neither was Ali, depending on the opponent. He showed up at a career heigh weight against Young, didn't prepare for Spinks, etc.

[ThatOne]

It was a unanimous decision over Shavers.

The only Ali Ingo stops is the dehydrated and done Ali of the Holmes fight. Ali of Spinks ll has enough left in the tank to beat Ingo. Ingo probably beats the done but not dehydrated Ali of the Spinks fight in a desultory decision.

History is on my side. Ali was stopped once in a twenty five year pro and amateur career. Ingo isn't going to be the second.

My bad, 9-6 on two cards, 9-5-1 on the third. Sorry. None the less, Shavers could have kayoed Ali in the 2nd round had he just followed it up, then we wouldnt been talking this bullshit right now---it was Shavers own doing, not some grand scheme Ali managed. Ali won on pure dumb freak luck, even he said he was unconscious from that second round onward, not remembering a damn thing.

Anyways----history is full of crap----and theres no way you or I can prove either of our theories is correct, you may "win" the argument only because history showed that Ali became a great fighter---but in 1961 who would have damn guessed, he was 5-0-0 and wasnt fighting, he was running!

I have to watch that round again. And just because Ali was hurt doesn't mean he was ready to go. Instead of clinching Ali pretended to be rubber legged. Who knows?

[The Great John L]

I have a question.

According to all the witnesses Ali embarrassed Ingo. The only one who disagrees was Ingo. Harold Conrad, the famed promoter and writer was there as well as SI reporter, Gil Rogin. What are we to conclude?

a) they are all lying

b) Ingo wasn't really trying

c) Ingo had no answer for Ali's style. It wasn't a style he was accustomed to

d) other

If we accept the general consensus that Ingo had major problems, I would lean towards option #3. There is no substitute for experience and Ingo probably wasn’t prepared for what Ali brought to the ring. Had he actually fought Ali, then the results could have been drastically different.

[ThatOne]

"Shavers' stamina and conditioning sucked thats why"

Ingo wasn't always the most conditioned fighter either.

Neither was Ali, depending on the opponent. He showed up at a career heigh weight against Young, didn't prepare for Spinks, etc.

But we were talking about Spinks ll where whatever could be said about Ali he showed up in the best shape of his life or the best shape he could get into at 36 years old
He "killed himself" for that fight:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/ ... /index.htm

Ali was motivated for that fight as any fight in his career. Ingo ain't knocking him out.

[HomicideHenry]

I have a question.

According to all the witnesses Ali embarrassed Ingo. The only one who disagrees was Ingo. Harold Conrad, the famed promoter and writer was there as well as SI reporter, Gil Rogin. What are we to conclude?

a) they are all lying

b) Ingo wasn't really trying

c) Ingo had no answer for Ali's style. It wasn't a style he was accustomed to

d) other

D) other

Why? Like I said earlier, Dundee and Ali just came there to make press. Ingo had no one else to spar with, this loud mouthed kid shows up, and runs around, talks trash, Ingo I could imagine is thinking 'What the fornicate?' cus the kid is cocky as hell and is just prancing around the ring; Ingo gets pissed, storms out of the ring, the reporters mistake that as a sign of weakness and Ali is more than welcome to flap his gums and say he challenges Ingo.

That's just my take on the whole scenario. Mind you, alot of fighters, especially the old timers, didnt know what to make of Clay. In 1969 Marciano initially disliked Ali, thought he talked too much and show boated, and evidentially an actual punch exchange happened between the two men because Marciano thought Ali was disprespecting him---later they became friends once they got to know eachother.

I imagine Ingo didnt have much patience for Ali.

[HomicideHenry]

"Shavers' stamina and conditioning sucked thats why"

Ingo wasn't always the most conditioned fighter either.

Neither was Ali, depending on the opponent. He showed up at a career heigh weight against Young, didn't prepare for Spinks, etc.

But we were talking about Spinks ll where whatever could be said about Ali he showed up in the best shape of his life or the best shape he could get into at 36 years old
He "killed himself" for that fight:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/ ... /index.htm

Ali was motivated for that fight as any fight in his career. Ingo ain't knocking him out.

Ali sure as hell didnt prepare for Spinks the first time around, and he lost to someone with seven or eight fights. Ingemar Johansson facing THAT version of Ali would have clobbered Ali to a decision win.

[ThatOne]

Gentlemen- Work beckons but I shall return to this thread later.

I appreciate the civility.

And yes I am biased toward Ali but I do think I have done my homework on the man and his career.

[HomicideHenry]

Round three will commence when you return!

[ThatOne]

Homocide Henry- I'm not using the Ali of Spinks l as an example. He was clearly faded for Spinks l but he was also out of shape and unmotivated. For Spinks ll he was still juat as faded if not more so but he was in shape and motivated.

I don't think Ingo knocks him out.


Be back later.

[Controversial]

I wasn't addressing the Ali/Ingo topic, but the 18yo Tyson could have ruled the HW division topic.

When did anyone say an 18 year old Tyson would rule the HW division?

[gambler49]

[/quote] I just think a prime, motivated, in shape Muhammad Ali would be at least even money against any man who put on a pair of boxing gloves.

And that's just the fighter. The reason some people hold him in such high esteem is because beside bing a boxer he was a social, political, and cultural force. That's the also reason people like granberry detest him because he represented forces they didn't and still don't like. i.e. , true emancipation for the black man.[/quote]

I kinda agree. As a fighter he was great! For me top 10 p4p. But as a person he was an AAAARSE HOLE and a man that was void of decency a very rude person indeed.

[Collins2000]

It was a unanimous decision over Shavers.

The only Ali Ingo stops is the dehydrated and done Ali of the Holmes fight. Ali of Spinks ll has enough left in the tank to beat Ingo. Ingo probably beats the done but not dehydrated Ali of the Spinks fight in a desultory decision.

History is on my side. Ali was stopped once in a twenty five year pro and amateur career. Ingo isn't going to be the second.

My bad, 9-6 on two cards, 9-5-1 on the third. Sorry. None the less, Shavers could have kayoed Ali in the 2nd round had he just followed it up, then we wouldnt been talking this bullshit right now---it was Shavers own doing, not some grand scheme Ali managed. Ali won on pure dumb freak luck, even he said he was unconscious from that second round onward, not remembering a damn thing.

Man, you talk some crap at times, Rufus. Not a single word about Ali's heart to weather that and still win.