Johansson, Clay, Tyson, Spinks, Patterson and Liston .......

[Controversial]

Floyd Patterson (31-1-0) is defending his title against the largely unknown heavyweight Sonny Liston (14-1-0) after Peter Jackson pulls out the fight with an injury.

Injury, hell. Jackson had been dead for 56 years.

Typo, I meant Tommy Jackson

[Controversial]

Please explain why its impossible for a 0-0-0 Tyson to knock Spinks out. Are you seriously suggesting if Tyson landed he best punch flush on Spinks chin nothing would happen? Spinks would laugh it off because Tyson was making his debut. Tysons power only materialised after he had 20 fights

Of course it would not be impossible, just very unlikely. The argument you are making could be made for almost any heavyweight. Could a 0-0-0 Noel Quarless (journeyman puncher) knock out a prime Spinks if he hit him right? The answer would be yes, why don't you make that argument? How unlikely would something have to be, or are you saying a 0-0-0 Tyson would have a good chance vs. prime Spinks?

Thats my point, jeez. According to most its IMPOSSIBLE for a novice fighter to beat a world class fighter. All I said was it isn't. Holyfield vs Qawi a prime example.

Of course Im taking the argument to the extreme using a 0-0-0 Tyson versus Spinks. IMO Tyson, even making his debut, could ko Spinks. That idea seems to be alien to most on here, I cannot understand why. Tysons power was immense even at 18 and Spinks chin (as we saw when they did fight) couldn't take Tysons power.

Of course any outcome in boxing is POSSIBLE. Its highly unlikely Quarless could beat Spinks, its possible if he landed a lucky ko punch but very unlikely. The chances of a 18 year Tyson knocking out Spinks isn't highly unlikely though. in fact I wouldn't bet against Tyson doing it.

Why would Patterson take a novice Listons punch any better than he did when they did fight for real?

[Controversial]

I refuse to further indulge the fantasies of a man who believes a green horn novice could easily trump a worlds champion. With his logic, if Ali could beat Johansson at 5-0-0, then certainly at 6-0-0 he would have beaten Patterson, and at 7-0-0 beaten Liston. STUFF AND NONSENSE!!!

Its not a fantasy its a hypothetical question. Just like most of the posts on this forum, Marciano vs Lewis, Dempsey vs Ali etc..etc..

You have dodged the question time and time again. Please tell me why its IMPOSSIBLE or even UNLIKELY that a 18 year old Tyson couldn't ko a 31-0 Spinks?

[ThatOne]

The original postulate no longer exists.

The original postulate was that it is not inconceivable that a raw Ali could be competitive with a prime Ingemarr Johansson. It has now been changed to that it is not inconceivable that a raw Muhummad Ali easily beats Johannson. Nobody argued the latter.

This whole charade has been disrespectful to Muhummad Ali. All the evidence suggests the raw Ali didn't fear him. And Prime Ali would have literally broken Ingo's face if his corner or the referre didn't stop the fight by at the latest the sixth round.

Let's look at their common opponents. Ali easily beat Patterson. I don't want to hear about Floyd's bad back. He was a young man fighting in the prime of his career. To say Ingo struggled with Patterson is an understatement. Ingo lost to Brian London. Ali clowned Brian London and made him part of his highlight films:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jU2YPXghFkU

If Johannson ever could beat Ali it would have been the raw Cassius Clay who was learning his craft or the done, past it, bloated Ali of Nassau, Bahamas who couldn't even run one mile.


When did a slow, European boxer, with a 72' reach ever give any version of Ali trouble?



Never, and he must have fought ten of them.

[HomicideHenry]

I refuse to further indulge the fantasies of a man who believes a green horn novice could easily trump a worlds champion. With his logic, if Ali could beat Johansson at 5-0-0, then certainly at 6-0-0 he would have beaten Patterson, and at 7-0-0 beaten Liston. STUFF AND NONSENSE!!!

Its not a fantasy its a hypothetical question. Just like most of the posts on this forum, Marciano vs Lewis, Dempsey vs Ali etc..etc..

You have dodged the question time and time again. Please tell me why its IMPOSSIBLE or even UNLIKELY that a 18 year old Tyson couldn't ko a 31-0 Spinks?

You asked The Great John L that question, not I, sir

[HomicideHenry]

The original postulate no longer exists.

The original postulate was that it is not inconceivable that a raw Ali could be competitive with a prime Ingemarr Johansson. It has now been changed to that it is not inconceivable that a raw Muhummad Ali easily beats Johannson. Nobody argued the latter.

This whole charade has been disrespectful to Muhummad Ali. All the evidence suggests the raw Ali didn't fear him. And Prime Ali would have literally broken Ingo's face if his corner or the referre didn't stop the fight by at the latest the sixth round.

Let's look at their common opponents. Ali easily beat Patterson. I don't want to hear about Floyd's bad back. He was a young man fighting in the prime of his career. To say Ingo struggled with Patterson is an understatement. Ingo lost to Brian London. Ali clowned Brian London and made him part of his highlight films:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jU2YPXghFkU

If Johannson ever could beat Ali it would have been the raw Cassius Clay who was learning his craft or the done, past it, bloated Ali of Nassau, Bahamas who couldn't even run one mile.


When did a slow, European boxer, with a 72' reach ever give any version of Ali trouble?



Never, and he must have fought ten of them.

In fairness, Ingo was "kayoed" at the last second of the final round, he was saved by the bell, but did enough to garner the decision over London. Ingo then realized his career was over, and promptly retired. That was nearly 3 years after the fact of the sparring session with Clay. The same scenario happened to Clay, getting 'saved' by the bell against Henry Cooper. Cooper didnt have no long reach, yet 'The Hammer' landed flush---and dont give me the story of Ali looking at Elizabeth Taylor either!

AND....you finally admitted the green horn 5-0-0 Ali (who was learning his craft) would have LOST to Johansson! Thanks! That is all I needed to hear! DD Good day sir!

[ThatOne]

How's this ?

I think 64-67 Ali could have beat Cooper, London, and Johannson on the same night, fighting them five rounds a piece, as George Foreman did with those journeymen in Toronto.

Even 70-76 Ali could have done the same thing to Cooper, Dunn, and Lubbers.


The only European fighter who gave Ali a competitive fight was the Hungarian Joe Bugner.

[HomicideHenry]

The only European fighter who gave Ali a competitive fight was the Hungarian Joe Bugner.

And why did Karl Mildenberger remain vertical for 11 rounds?

[ThatOne]

I'm sticking to my original premise that it is not inconceivable that a raw Muhamnad Ali could be competitive with Ingemarr Johansson. We are not talking about Joe Louis and Charley Retzlaff.

[ThatOne]

The only European fighter who gave Ali a competitive fight was the Hungarian Joe Bugner.

And why did Karl Mildenberger remain vertical for 11 rounds?

That was the fight where the ref was robbed and Ali paid him out of his own pocket. A true champion.

As to the fight Karl didn't remain vertical for fifteen rounds nor all of the twelve rounds before Ali dropped him.

Those Euro-fighters with the exception of Bugner were made for Ali.

[HomicideHenry]

I'm sticking to my original premise that it is not inconceivable that a raw Muhamnad Ali could be competitive with Ingemarr Johansson. We are not talking about Joe Louis and Charley Retzlaff.

Might as well be. I dont care how great Muhammad Ali would later become, but at 5-0-0, he wasn't 'The Greatest', else he wouldnt have fallen into Sonny Banks hook so easily. If a bum like Banks could do it, then certainly Johansson could to an earlier version of Ali than what Banks encountered.

There is no other instance in this sports long, illustrious history, of someone beating a worlds champion in their pro debut or within their first 5 professional bouts. Leon Spinks, you have mentioned time and time again, but Neon Leon was a fluke---he was the worst title holder and former champion in ring history---Ali only took him on because he thought Spinks would be safer than Ken Norton for a fourth time around. Ali came in at a career high weight, didn't train much, figured the 7-0-1 kid would be kayoed in mere minutes, was old as hell, and got is ears beaten off him for 15 rounds.

The Spinks-Ali bouts have no baring on the Johansson/Clay hypothetical what so ever, for we're not talking about the Ali who went through the wars with Frazier, Norton, Shavers, Foreman and Liston---we're talking about a kid just coming out of the amateurs who beat 5 third tier journeymen who would be on par with someone like Andrew Hartley and Eric Crumble for God's sakes [okay maybe thats a stretch, but you get the idea, just stressing the point].

I've done said its plausible for Clay to make 4 rounds with Johansson, that much I can agree on. But even being as generous as I possibly can, I cant see Clay beating Johansson over 10 rounds.

If you can name ONE other heavyweight, or ONE other fighter at ANY weight, who could come out of the amateurs and beat a worlds champion in their pro debut or inside 5 bouts, I will congratulate you sir. Can you invision Stevenson in his pro debut defeat Ali? Can you invision Rigandeaux defeating the current world champion right now? Can you possibly believe any of the ATG heavyweights in their pro debuts or within 5 bouts could make world champ?

The only men I ever seen come close to it was Jeffries and Sullivan, but they were in eras that are not even comparable with the 1960's heavyweight scene---for theirs was an era of unscheduled length bouts, fights to the finish; Sullivan had maybe a handful of bouts before beating Paddy Ryan, and in Jeffries debut he defeated a heavyweight with well over 100 bouts. But like I said, you cant compare their eras, the sport was different, as much as apples and oranges are different----or maybe as different as a tomato is compared to other fruits.

[hhaehre]

Of course any outcome in boxing is POSSIBLE. Its highly unlikely Quarless could beat Spinks, its possible if he landed a lucky ko punch but very unlikely. The chances of a 18 year Tyson knocking out Spinks isn't highly unlikely though. in fact I wouldn't bet against Tyson doing it.

Ok, we are down to the crux here. I believe it is highly unlikely that a 0-0-0 Tyson beats a prime Spinks and I would not wage money on it. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Why would Patterson take a novice Listons punch any better than he did when they did fight for real?

Because Liston would not easily land those punches as a rookie pro with little experience and ring generalship. I am sure Liston also improved his punching power as he matured, became stronger and developed better technique.

[ThatOne]

Homocide Henry- Yeah, I think a Prime Teofilio Stevenson, winner of three Olympic Gold Medals, who had boxed for twenty years without pay could have beat one of the lesser heavyweight champions in history.

I'm taking 1980 Stevenson over 1961 Johannson; all day long...

[HomicideHenry]

Homocide Henry- Yeah, I think a Prime Teofilio Stevenson, winner of three Olympic Gold Medals, who had boxed for twenty years without pay could have beat one of the lesser heavyweight champions in history.

I'm taking 1980 Stevenson over 1961 Johannson; all day long...

But not Ali right? If I'm correct, Ali challenged Stevenson in 1976 to either a 15 round bout, or to a series of four rounders. Stevenson was offered $5 million dollars to fight Ali in his debut, but he remained loyal to his native Cuba and its communist policies.

[ThatOne]

Homocide Henry- Yeah, I think a Prime Teofilio Stevenson, winner of three Olympic Gold Medals, who had boxed for twenty years without pay could have beat one of the lesser heavyweight champions in history.

I'm taking 1980 Stevenson over 1961 Johannson; all day long...

But not Ali right? If I'm correct, Ali challenged Stevenson in 1976 to either a 15 round bout, or to a series of four rounders. Stevenson was offered $5 million dollars to fight Ali in his debut, but he remained loyal to his native Cuba and its communist policies.

I am careful in what I say because I like to defend what I say.

I said it was not inconceivable that a raw Muhammad Ali could be competitive with a prime , experienced Ingemarr Johannson. I would have never have said the same about Ali being competitive with, say, Sonny Liston,George Foreman, Zora Folley, Cleveland Wlliams, Joe Frazier, Ken Norton, et cetera but with Ingo it's not out of the realm of possibility.

And I think I'm taking the 80 Stevenson against the 80 Ali. (LOL)

[Controversial]

Of course any outcome in boxing is POSSIBLE. Its highly unlikely Quarless could beat Spinks, its possible if he landed a lucky ko punch but very unlikely. The chances of a 18 year Tyson knocking out Spinks isn't highly unlikely though. in fact I wouldn't bet against Tyson doing it.

Ok, we are down to the crux here. I believe it is highly unlikely that a 0-0-0 Tyson beats a prime Spinks and I would not wage money on it. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Why would Patterson take a novice Listons punch any better than he did when they did fight for real?

Because Liston would not easily land those punches as a rookie pro with little experience and ring generalship. I am sure Liston also improved his punching power as he matured, became stronger and developed better technique.

At last someone with the balls to at least give an opinion, instead of silly remarks. We will agree to disagree. Personally I wouldn't bet against Tyson koing Spinks, whenever they fought. If Spinks couldn't handle his power in 1988 then I don't see why he could if they fought in 1985. I'd even say the same for Liston.

[HomicideHenry]

Homocide Henry- Yeah, I think a Prime Teofilio Stevenson, winner of three Olympic Gold Medals, who had boxed for twenty years without pay could have beat one of the lesser heavyweight champions in history.

I'm taking 1980 Stevenson over 1961 Johannson; all day long...

But not Ali right? If I'm correct, Ali challenged Stevenson in 1976 to either a 15 round bout, or to a series of four rounders. Stevenson was offered $5 million dollars to fight Ali in his debut, but he remained loyal to his native Cuba and its communist policies.

I am careful in what I say because I like to defend what I say.

I said it was not inconceivable that a raw Muhammad Ali could be competitive with a prime , experienced Ingemarr Johannson. I would have never have said the same about Ali being competitive with, say, Sonny Liston,George Foreman, Zora Folley, Cleveland Wlliams, Joe Frazier, Ken Norton, et cetera but with Ingo it's not out of the realm of possibility.

And I think I'm taking the 80 Stevenson against the 80 Ali. (LOL)

Btw you ever did answer my question, that if Ali at 5-0-0 could beat Johansson, then under the same logic, that at 6-0-0 and 7-0-0 he could beat Liston and Patterson?

[ThatOne]

Different styles and Liston and Patterson are much more dangerous. One is an an ATG and the other is a near ATG. Ingo was neither.

[HomicideHenry]

I think you're bluffing here a bit now. Earlier you made comparisons to how Ali handled London and Patterson, two men Ingo fought---and now you say its too dangerous? Hmmm, how can that possibly be?

[ThatOne]

I said Ali did much better against London and Patterson than Ingo did. Ingo never fought Sonny and for that he should have thanked the Lord.

Prime Ali beat Patterson fairly handily but I don't like Raw Ali against him. And I don't like Raw Ali against a monster like Liston where there is no room for error.

[HomicideHenry]

I think you're faith just diminished. Certainly the great Ali at 5-0-0 could best Patterson and Liston, if he could easily befuddle Johansson.

[HomicideHenry]

Or should I use the phrase "be competitive" with Patterson and Liston instead?

[ThatOne]

I think you're faith just diminished. Certainly the great Ali at 5-0-0 could best Patterson and Liston, if he could easily befuddle Johansson.

The flaw in your logic , my friend, is that Liston was better than Patterson and Patterson was better than Johannson.

The next thing is you're going to try to get me to say Muhammad Ali could have beat George Foreman in his pro debut.

Tommy Gunn was a heavyweight champion at one point. I think there were past ATGS who as "novices" could have given him a good fight.

I just think if there was a heavyweight champ that a four fight Ali could be competitive with it was Ingo.

[HomicideHenry]

Hey, I'm not the one challenging the forum by saying a pro debuter or a novice of five fights or less could beat a worlds champion, now am I? That's you! All I asked was for any evidence, any piece of proof, where there has ever been such a thing as someone with five bouts or less making a worlds champion, at any weight, look foolish, let alone beat them.

Pete Rademacher may have floored Patterson in is debut, but for his efforts he was downed SEVEN times and was badly thrashed. He got a wake up call, and so would Cassius Clay, so would Mike Tyson, so would George Foreman, so would Lennox Lewis and so would Vitali Klitschko.

Ingemar Johansson may not have had a long title reign, but neither did Baer, Carnera, Schmeling, Sharkey, Braddock and numerous others. Doesn't mean the man couldnt fight, that he couldnt go, that he couldnt knock 5-0-0 Cassius Clay's dick in the dirt.

[HomicideHenry]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_q3pmDhdT0

Watch this, ok?

And you tell me, it would be that much a cinch for Ali to beat Johansson with only 5 fights or less.