Johansson, Clay, Tyson, Spinks, Patterson and Liston .......

[ThatOne]

You are correct but Ingo's point win over London wasn't nearly as impressive as Ali taking London apart, ergo:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07s4bgLedLU


These stand up, slow European fighters like Cooper, Coopman, Dunn, Lubbers, and London were tailor made for Ali. If Ingo would have hung around for a couple of molre yeas he would have made the list. If a stand up, monster like George Foreman couldn't stop a post prime Ali what chance would these gentlemen have againt the prime version?

[raylawpc]

You are correct but Ingo's point win over London wasn't nearly as impressive as Ali taking London apart, ergo:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07s4bgLedLU


These stand up, slow European fighters like Cooper, Coopman, Dunn, Lubbers, and London were tailor made for Ali. If Ingo would have hung around for a couple of molre yeas he would have made the list. If a stand up, monster like George Foreman couldn't stop a post prime Ali what chance would these gentlemen have againt the prime version?

No. 1: You are equating European fighters as all having the same style. Johansson was a counter-puncher. I don't know much about Lubbers, but none of these other guys were counter-punchers. I submit that Ingo was at a higher level than these guys (Johansson beat two of them), so Ali's win over them really don't prove much when considering a hypothetical Ali-Johansson match.

No. 2: I think Johansson looked alot more impressive against Patterson in the first fight than Ali did in his first fight with Patterson, so . . .

[Controversial]

All I asked was for any evidence, any piece of proof, where there has ever been such a thing as someone with five bouts or less making a worlds champion, at any weight, look foolish, let alone beat them.

Pete Rademacher may have floored Patterson in is debut

Thats only because these bouts hardly ever happen. That doesn't mean a novice fighter isn't capable of beating a world class fighter.

Rademacher wasn't a good pro (finished with a 15-7-1 record) and even making his debut managed to floor Patterson and last 6 rounds, funnily enough longer than Johansson managed to last against Patterson !!

If a light punching, very average Rademacher could floor Patterson why is it so beyond belief that a better fighter in his position would have beaten Patterson?

There are instances in other sports, golf and tennis for example, where complete unranked or unheard of players have beaten world class opponents and won titles. Yes a complete different sport to boxing but the point is it happens.

Take Tyson again. Carl 'The Truth' Williams was 16-0 when Tyson turned pro. In Williams 17th fight he fought Holmes for the world title. Williams was a fighter not known for having a great chin, as Tyson showed when they did fight. Is it beyond the realms of possibility that Tyson would ko Williams in his debut? Even though Williams was unbeaten, world ranked and one fight away from given world champion Holmes a tough fight?

Boxers have to earn title shots. Its part of the sport. If everyone had a title shot after a few fights then how would you decide deserved it. You couldn't, therefore they fight their way through the division to prove they deserve a title shot. Of course on route they also gain experience and their fitness and stamina levels get better.

There are many instances of carefully managed fighters being fed bums or past it boxers to fight and steered away from anyone decent until they get a title shot. How does a 'protected' fighter gain experience fighting nobodies, they don't but it happens all the time.

[HomicideHenry]

Now you're on to Mike Tyson again....at 18 Tyson got SPANKED over three rounds to Henry Tillman, and that was in the summer of 1984. Tillman would go on to win the Gold medal in his weight class. In 1984 the worlds heavyweight champion was Larry Holmes, already done having defeated the likes of Norton, Shavers, Cooney, and several others, approaching his 17th title defense. The WBA champion(s), at that time, were Pinklon Thomas, Tim Witherspoon, and Greg Page [the whole year for 1984; Witherspoon lost the title to Thomas, who lost it to Page].

Now....you're going to tell me in a 4 round scenario that Tyson, not even a pro, is going to win over those four men mentioned?

[ThatOne]

You are correct but Ingo's point win over London wasn't nearly as impressive as Ali taking London apart, ergo:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07s4bgLedLU


These stand up, slow European fighters like Cooper, Coopman, Dunn, Lubbers, and London were tailor made for Ali. If Ingo would have hung around for a couple of molre yeas he would have made the list. If a stand up, monster like George Foreman couldn't stop a post prime Ali what chance would these gentlemen have againt the prime version?

No. 1: You are equating European fighters as all having the same style. Johansson was a counter-puncher. I don't know much about Lubbers, but none of these other guys were counter-punchers. I submit that Ingo was at a higher level than these guys (Johansson beat two of them), so Ali's win over them really don't prove much when considering a hypothetical Ali-Johansson match.

No. 2: I think Johansson looked alot more impressive against Patterson in the first fight than Ali did in his first fight with Patterson, so . . .

Do you think Johannson could have beat a 64-67 Ali or a 70-75 Ali?

I respectfully submit you would be on an island with that opinion.

[Ezzard]

Do you think Johannson could have beat a 64-67 Ali or a 70-75 Ali?

I respectfully submit you would be on an island with that opinion.

Are we back to the "could have" phrase again?

[ThatOne]

Do you think Johannson could have beat a 64-67 Ali or a 70-75 Ali?

I respectfully submit you would be on an island with that opinion.

Are we back to the "could have" phrase again?

I think I understand and respect the English language and use my words carefully and precisely. My original contention was that "it is not inconceievable to me that a raw Muhammad Ali could be competitive with an experienced Ingemarr Johannson."

Then some other posters , as is often the case with such arguments, started to argue with what they think I said or what they wanted me to have said.

As far as 64-67 Ali and 70-75 Ali it is inconceivable to me that a middling heavyweight champion could beat a heavyweight champion who is on just about every experts' top three list.


Ali beat nine Hall of Famers and three consensus heavweight ATGS?


How many did Ingo beat?

[Ezzard]

Do you think Johannson could have beat a 64-67 Ali or a 70-75 Ali?

I respectfully submit you would be on an island with that opinion.

Are we back to the "could have" phrase again?

I think I understand and respect the English language and use my words carefully and precisely. My original contention was that "it is not inconceievable to me that a raw Muhammad Ali could be competitive with an experienced Ingemarr Johannson."

Then some other posters , as is often the case with such arguments, started to argue with what they think I said or what they wanted me to have said.

As far as 64-67 Ali and 70-75 Ali it is inconceivable to me that a middling heavyweight champion could beat a heavyweight champion who is on just about every experts' top three list.


Ali beat nine Hall of Famers and three consensus heavweight ATGS?


How many did Ingo beat?

I’m trying to be light-hearted. But I guess there’s also a point. I’m not sure what this debate is about.

COULD Ali have been competitive? I can see that yes, he COULD have been competitive. After all he was a great if raw talent even back then. It’s more than likely than Ingo would have won but I can agree with the statement COULD have been competitive.

Now Ingo had an ATG right hand. COULD he have beaten Ali in Ali’s prime? The answer has to be yes he COULD have beaten Ali in his prime. I wouldn’t have bet on him though.

[raylawpc]

Do you think Johannson could have beat a 64-67 Ali or a 70-75 Ali?

I respectfully submit you would be on an island with that opinion.

. . . Ingo had an ATG right hand. COULD he have beaten Ali in Ali’s prime? The answer has to be yes he COULD have beaten Ali in his prime. I wouldn’t have bet on him though.

Ditto Ezzard. Well said. I'll only add that Ingo had a counterpunching style and would have made Ali come to him - something Ali didn't like to do. I think prime v. prime would have been a good fight, but I wouldn't have bet on Ingo.

[Controversial]

Now you're on to Mike Tyson again....at 18 Tyson got SPANKED over three rounds to Henry Tillman, and that was in the summer of 1984. Tillman would go on to win the Gold medal in his weight class. In 1984 the worlds heavyweight champion was Larry Holmes, already done having defeated the likes of Norton, Shavers, Cooney, and several others, approaching his 17th title defense. The WBA champion(s), at that time, were Pinklon Thomas, Tim Witherspoon, and Greg Page [the whole year for 1984; Witherspoon lost the title to Thomas, who lost it to Page].

Now....you're going to tell me in a 4 round scenario that Tyson, not even a pro, is going to win over those four men mentioned?

Firstly Tyson was 18 when he turned pro, in fact he was 4-0 as a pro before he turned 19. Secondly amateur fights mean nothing, please tell me you know that? Big gloves, headgear, short rounds and refs that jump in when any half decent punch is landed. Do you honestly think Tillman would have beaten Tyson as a pro, no of course not.

As I said before when Tyson turned pro Carl Williams was 16-0 and Williams fought Holmes for the world title in his 17th fight. What if Williams fought Tyson instead of Holmes? What makes you think Tyson couldn't ko Williams, even when Tyson was making his debut? Williams was hardly known for his chin, as we later found out Tyson flattened him with one punch. Would Williams take Tysons punch any better just because Tyson was making his debut?

If the very average 0-0-0 Rademacher can floor and go 6 rounds with world champion Floyd Patterson, why is it beyond the realm of possibility that a better debutant fighter in his position wouldn't beat Patterson?