Is Vitali the best name on Lennox's record?

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

I agree with original point, although Lennox got dead lucky in that fight.

The three best heavyweights of Lewis's era were Bowe, Tyson and Holyfield. He never fought Bowe, Tyson was washed up and Holyfield well over the top when Lewis fought them. Holyfield was at his peak in 1991-1997, yet Lewis didn't fight him then. And loads of people thought Holyfield won the second fight, but knew he wouldn't get the verdict because of the controversial draw.

After getting jobbed by Lewis, Holyfield went 1-1 with John Ruiz.

None of that was Lewis' fault though, Lewis became mandatory challenger after destroying Razor Ruddock but Bowe refused to face him, Lewis was mandatory challenger for the WBC title in 1996 but Tyson chose to fight the mighty Bruce Seldon instead and the Holyfield fight never happened for whatever reason. That's just how boxing works, fighters rarely cross each others paths at their very peaks.

I'm not disagreeing, it's just that some people accept this from Lewis, just Joe Calzaghe is constantly slated for not fighting Hopkins or Jones earlier, even though those fights were never on the table.

The difference is LEwis fought any and everyone from the start of his career to legitimise his place as 1 of the best in the world, year on year he took big risks against the best in his division, he was blatantly ducked by Bowe/Holyfield/Moorer/Foreman/Tyson from 1992-1998, they wanted no part of him and as a consequence Lewis had to make do with beating the rest of the top10, all the fresh heavy hitting contenders in their prime year on year. Foreman even called Lewis the best after regaining the title

Maybe Vitali is the best name on LEwis's record alongside Holyfield, but Vitali is estasblishing himself as 1 of the greats and Lewis was nearly 38 for that 1 and he still got the TKO

FFS saying many thought Holy beat Lewis second time round? Only blind people like yourself fella

[sy86]

Lewis is the best name on Vitali's record, he was unlucky that night to get stopped on the cut.

Vitali's opponents since Lewis would have all be knocked out by Lewis and he would still rule the divison!!

[overhand_right]

People try paint a picture that Holyfield was spent by 99 - he was The Man with his victories over Tyson and Moorer and riding high coming into NYC that night. Check !oxing Monthly and most were picking Holyfield to stop Lewis late.

I thought he got the better of LL second time round, and I don't see how he lost any of those John Ruiz fights.

Holyfield was still elite level in the late 90s/early 00s.

[HomicideHenry]

Simply put, YES.

[gobbles]

The difference is LEwis fought any and everyone from the start of his career to legitimise his place as 1 of the best in the world, year on year he took big risks against the best in his division, he was blatantly ducked by Bowe/Holyfield/Moorer/Foreman/Tyson from 1992-1998, they wanted no part of him and as a consequence Lewis had to make do with beating the rest of the top10, all the fresh heavy hitting contenders in their prime year on year. Foreman even called Lewis the best after regaining the title

Maybe Vitali is the best name on LEwis's record alongside Holyfield, but Vitali is estasblishing himself as 1 of the greats and Lewis was nearly 38 for that 1 and he still got the TKO

FFS saying many thought Holy beat Lewis second time round? Only blind people like yourself fella

You're bang out of order and dead wrong about that last remark. I remember Roy Jones Jr saying at the time he thought Holyfield won. But you never get debate on this board, do you, just abuse if you disagree with "the agreed view".

[Captain Hook]

Holyfield was never near a victory in the first or second fight IMO.....

[Syntax Error]

Holyfield was never near a victory in the first or second fight IMO.....

Lewis won both fights clearly IMO, although Holyfield did make it a closer run thing in the rematch.

I just don't get where all this 'Holyfield was robbed' comes from.

[DavidPayne]

Vitaly is hopeless. Its a sin to suggest he's more valuable than Holyfield on Lewis' record.

A prime Ray Mercer would have beaten VitalyKlitschko.

As would Bruno.

Vitaly, I've officially decided after the weekend, is garbage.

[DavidPayne]

Amen.

[kevo]

I agree with original point, although Lennox got dead lucky in that fight.

This is wrong on so many levels. First and foremost, once again for those at the back, Lewis hit Vitali with a punch (as opposed to the imbeciles in the crowd, and on HBO, who thought it was a butt), or a few punches, and this caused the skin to tear apart, we call this a cut. This cut led to a lot of blood cascading down the face of Vitali and the people who are given the job of deciding these things, the doc and ref, decided that Vitali could no longer continue. Lewis' hand was then raised and he was awarded the fight, we call this a TKO victory.

Next, Lewis threw his punches in the direction of Vitali. A lot, nearly all, of the time he was aiming for Vitali's face, this face-picking approach to the punching contributed to the phenomenon of shots landing on the face, and chin, of Vitali. Once you have factored this, Lewis aiming for his opponent when punching, then you can refer again to the original point, above.

Thirdly, Lewis took the best Vitali had to offer in the early going. Vitali hit a fat, creaking and under-motivated Lewis with everything in the early going, Lewis' supposed glass jaw stood up to these shots. Now, Vitali has stopped people late in fights, men like Gomez, Williams and Sanders but, and this is crucial, Lewis is not one of those guys, though he was as fat as Sanders on fight night. So given that Lewis had taken Vitali's best only to return fire, and score more effectively, we can infer that Lennox was not going anywhere in this fight.

Also, this fight was contested for the heavyweight championship, these fights take place over 12 rounds. Although he lost a few of the early ones, Lewis was still in the fight and had inflicted far more damage with his blows, so while he may have been slightly behind on the cards these cards were academic, as he ripped Vitali's face apart and won by a TKO. This was caused by those gaping chasms on VK's face, the ones with red fluid coming out off them, we call them cuts (sorry to labour this points, but I really have to), they stop fights if they are really bad, as was the case in this fight.

There are a few other things to mention: Lewis took the fight on extremely short notice after preparing for Kirk Johnson, Lennox was practically mugged by Larry Merchant in the post-fight interview due to a complete inability on the part of HBO (and Gobbles) to understand the rules, Lewis was a long, long way past his best and Vitali was in and around his peak, and when the fight was stopped Vitali's work had lost a lot of its shine.

Say a lighting fixture had fallen, hitting VK in the eye, cutting it and leading to a NC, that would have been lucky. Lewis twatted him in the eye with a right hand, a correctly thrown one also, as shown by the way he twisted his glove on impact, this was not luck, it is called boxing, or punching.

Again, one last time for the Boxrec massive, this was a TKO loss, it was not a lucky shot, Lewis opened a cut and worked it, causing the fight to be stopped. This was about as 'lucky' as Calzaghe's TKO win over Manfredo, IE it had nothing at all to do with luck.

As for the consensus on here, people respect and love Lewis, they grudgingly respect Calzaghe. One guy went for it early in his career and the other did not. Lewis also gave us far better nights than Joe. Lewis is going to be ranked higher than Joe when the history books open.

[Asterix]

gobbles,

Vitali is the one who "got lucky". He turned up in great shape to fight an out of shape, demotivated Lennox Lewis. All Vitali had to do was put up an argument. People are still saying he would have won had it not been for the cut. Note that, however, Vitali was cut multiple times. If the doctor hadn't stopped the fight Lewis would have just bashed him up more. When the fight was stopped Lewis had the upper hand.

[gobbles]

The difference is LEwis fought any and everyone from the start of his career to legitimise his place as 1 of the best in the world, year on year he took big risks against the best in his division, he was blatantly ducked by Bowe/Holyfield/Moorer/Foreman/Tyson from 1992-1998, they wanted no part of him and as a consequence Lewis had to make do with beating the rest of the top10, all the fresh heavy hitting contenders in their prime year on year. Foreman even called Lewis the best after regaining the title

Maybe Vitali is the best name on LEwis's record alongside Holyfield, but Vitali is estasblishing himself as 1 of the greats and Lewis was nearly 38 for that 1 and he still got the TKO

FFS saying many thought Holy beat Lewis second time round? Only blind people like yourself fella

You're bang out of order and dead wrong about that last remark. I remember Roy Jones Jr saying at the time he thought Holyfield won. But you never get debate on this board, do you, just abuse if you disagree with "the agreed view".

Ah, Jones said so did he, must be true then...Unless, Jones was thinking of moving up to nick a heavyweight crown and wanted to take on someone closer to his own size. Hmm, would Roy have wanted Lewis or Holyfield to win? Could this desire have influenced his talk, perhaps to the extent that he could then do a Naz and fight the 'moral (seemingly faded) winner' of the fight? Blimey, Roy only went and fought Ruiz, who defeated Holyfied, and then Superman talked about fighting Lewis, only for it never to happen.

Jones says a lot, this is the man who said he would retire if he could not stop the fat, aged Tito Trinidad, so I would not rely on his testimony.

Who's relying on his testimony? He's just one of a lot of people who thought Lewis got lucky in the second fight. And far from perceived opinion on here and the outrage caused, not everyone thought Lewis won the other fight too. Bottom line is, Lewis did not fight the best names of his era in their prime. When Holyfield and Bowe were bashing the crap out of each other, Lewis was taking on guys like Phil Jackson and losing to McCall. Yes, Bowe gave up his title rather than fight him, but if Lewis had taken the short end of the deal, Bowe would have fought him. That's the allegation always thrown at Calzaghe, who apparently should have fought Hopkins or Jones for no money, why not Lewis? He was so brave, he sued Tyson for not going through with a rematch.

I do, however, agree that Klitschko got lucky to face a demotivated, lazy Lewis. I was just being devils advocate with that line. However, there are tons of holes in Lewis's legacy, like many others we could mention. He waited to face guys when he thought they were past it and bailed out of a Klitschko rematch.

[gobbles]

Well, he did swerve Klitschko. He gave a date for a December rematch, even told Klitschko to go to an agreed doctor to make sure he would be fit to fight, then he backed out. Sure, he probably realised he was bored of it all by then and maybe he had earnt the lesson of Rahman that it isn't worth the risk if you are not prepared, but he certainly did it.

I don't buy that Weaver line. When Lewis fought him, he was a good name but he was 41 and it was nine years after he lost his WBA title. I remember in the mid-80s he was talking about retiring and was learning the piano so he could become a live entertainer. He got stopped in one round by Bonecrusher six years before Lennox fed off him.

Brewer was a much more live opponent. He was 33 and had won the NABF title in his previous fight and had lost a split decision to Ottke 18 months before, although he'd lost a wild shootout with Echols.

Also a big difference between Lewis and Calzaghe was that Lewis turned pro at 24 as an Olympic champion, with a long amateur career behind him including Commonwealth gold in 1986. Calzaghe was a world champion at 25.

Also with regard to Lewis "going away". As Olympic super-heavyweight champion he was showcased on US bills early in his career and only came to England in the first place because it was the best offer he got. Calzaghe was not offered the chance of a TV date on HBO in his second fight. While Lewis was fighting at the Albert Hall and Atlantic City, being shown live on national TV, Calzaghe was boxing at places like Brent Town Hall and Wolverhampton Civic Hall.

[Goz]

People try paint a picture that Holyfield was spent by 99 - he was The Man with his victories over Tyson and Moorer and riding high coming into NYC that night. Check !oxing Monthly and most were picking Holyfield to stop Lewis late.

I thought he got the better of LL second time round, and I don't see how he lost any of those John Ruiz fights.

Holyfield was still elite level in the late 90s/early 00s.

Exactly. Holyfield was flying going into the Lewis fights.

In my opinion he was about at his peak as a true HEAVYWEIGHT by this time, planting his feet a big more, looking like a genuinely big man.

I'm often accused of stating this opinion in order to big up Lennox but this really isn't true - I think Holyfield was inconsistent throughout his career and I think Ruiz probably would have given him an awkward night at any point in his Heavyweight career just the same as Lennonx would have.

[Finn]

I believe that by the time Holy drew with Lewis, Evander was in decline, hence he went on to have life and death with John Ruiz post LL-Holy 2(which many have Holy winning)

I think thats hard to say considering he went 12 rounds with valuev last year. I think holyfield was still considered as being in his hayday when he fought lewis.

[bugs]

Dont really know why it matter which Tyson Lewis fought, Tyson never beat a 'name' outside of an old fat Larry Holmes who was not allowed a tune up fight. Lewis' other wins are what makes him an all time great heavyweight, I doubt Vitali could have gone in the ring with a number of them, including Tua, coz if Sanders could shake Vitali Tua would have broken him.
Lewis beat eveyone he could get into the ring in front of him, something Vitali can't say, and Lewis was in with a better bunch than Vitali, Vitali could have taken up boxing earlier and have a better call, but he did not, he was too busy prancing around a martial arts ring.

[gobbles]

Well, he did swerve Klitschko. He gave a date for a December rematch, even told Klitschko to go to an agreed doctor to make sure he would be fit to fight, then he backed out. Sure, he probably realised he was bored of it all by then and maybe he had earnt the lesson of Rahman that it isn't worth the risk if you are not prepared, but he certainly did it.

I don't buy that Weaver line. When Lewis fought him, he was a good name but he was 41 and it was nine years after he lost his WBA title. I remember in the mid-80s he was talking about retiring and was learning the piano so he could become a live entertainer. He got stopped in one round by Bonecrusher six years before Lennox fed off him.

Brewer was a much more live opponent. He was 33 and had won the NABF title in his previous fight and had lost a split decision to Ottke 18 months before, although he'd lost a wild shootout with Echols.

Also a big difference between Lewis and Calzaghe was that Lewis turned pro at 24 as an Olympic champion, with a long amateur career behind him including Commonwealth gold in 1986. Calzaghe was a world champion at 25.

Also with regard to Lewis "going away". As Olympic super-heavyweight champion he was showcased on US bills early in his career and only came to England in the first place because it was the best offer he got. Calzaghe was not offered the chance of a TV date on HBO in his second fight. While Lewis was fighting at the Albert Hall and Atlantic City, being shown live on national TV, Calzaghe was boxing at places like Brent Town Hall and Wolverhampton Civic Hall.

Maybe Lewis' body could not take a training camp. Vitali pulled out off fights with Rahman citing this and you've convieniently failed to accuse him of swerving Rahman on the basis of this, strange considering that, unlike Lewis, Vitali then cameback a few years after 'swerving' Hasim. Pot, kettle and all that.

Aye, Brewer was riding the crest of a wave coming into that one. He was on a one fight winning run, had been stopped by Echols, had lost to Ottke, twice, and had not looked all that in his fight with Herol Graham, who was hardly top shelf material at that point in his career. Sure, Weaver was also not at his best, but that was, what, Lewis' fifteenth fight, Joe Calzaghe was touching double figures defences wise when he tackled Brewer. Again, you are making my points for me.

Lewis may have turned pro later, but he excelled far faster. Joe may have been a title holder, he was not a world champion, at 25 but Lewis beat him to the undisputed title by a good few years -- four or five if I recall correctly.

Calzaghe wasn't showcased for years because no one was interested, you've got that right. Lewis was showcased early but, importantly, stayed on HBO for the majority of his career. Why is this? Because he took on a higher level of operator from the get-go.

Lewis towers over Joe, the '0' is Joe's saving grace but that is about it. Lewis' career was stacked and historically he is vying with names such as Ali, Frazier, Holmes, Marciano, Louis, Johnson, Dempsey and the rest, so his relatively high ranking comes in a strong division. Joe is the best in a division that has been historically crap. His name will fade faster than Lewis'. The record is impressive, but it is a few fights off Rocky's one and when people deal almost exclusively in stats the higher one always wins out.

You reveal your undoubted bias when you write off Calzaghe as a belt-holder. So what was Lewis? Handed a vacant title he didn't even have to win in the ring, he probably couldn't count himself as world champion then until he won his rematch with Holyfield - unless you believe he became linear champion with a win over the mighty Shannon Briggs.
Lewis' problem was that, after he got knocked out by McCall, he became unbelievably dull. All those fights with the likes of Tua, Akinwande, Mavrovic. Dear, oh dear, there were some stinkers. And, whatever you say, names like those and Rahman - a boxer who truly revealed how poor he was when he lost to the likes of Maskaev (twice) - will make sure he is never vying with Ali, Louis, Johnson, Marciano or Dempsey. Frazier - maybe.

And again, you ignore the point about Lewis being an Olympic champion. As such, he was expected to excel quicker, that's why he got the huge signing-on fee when he turned pro.

[magicman1991]

If you ask me! lennox was in decline when he fought vitali!! iv seen most lennox's fights and saw him evolve as a fighter, but he did not look the same when he fought vitali. He was slow very heavy and looked old!! but he has done a better job than what any other heavyweight has done against him!! atleast in the 90s heavyweights were not fat and slow like the klitschkos are fighting now. lennox fought some had men back then!! and should be cosiderd as one of the best heavyweights of all time !! if he was a american everyone would say he was the greatest off all time :)

[CheckHook]

Vitali is far from the best name on Lewis' record. Even if you base it on abilty/ form Holyfield is a bigger scalp.

As for the whole Vitali Vs Lennox debate I don't get it. Vitali might have been edging it on the scorecards, but he was stopped. The reality is, if you cut easily or are cut in a fight then you should be smart enough to protect yourself. Adapt your style and move to plan B. Vitali got cut to ribbons in that fight and the fact he might have still been in it on the cards is irrelevant. He should've looked after his face better, but maybe then he'd have had to fight more cautiously and got eaten up by Lennox anyway. Either way he was stopped fair and square.

With regards to a rematch, I'd say if Lewis would've continued fighting then he should've certainly rematched Vitali, but he didn't so I don't really see why he gets stick for retiring. If he'd had enough then thats his decision and his perogative. It's not the fans that get hit in the face for a living, when a fighter wants to call it a day then good luck to them I say.

[Syntax Error]

Vitali is far from the best name on Lewis' record. Even if you base it on abilty/ form Holyfield is a bigger scalp.

As for the whole Vitali Vs Lennox debate I don't get it. Vitali might have been edging it on the scorecards, but he was stopped. The reality is, if you cut easily or are cut in a fight then you should be smart enough to protect yourself. Adapt your style and move to plan B. Vitali got cut to ribbons in that fight and the fact he might have still been in it on the cards is irrelevant. He should've looked after his face better, but maybe then he'd have had to fight more cautiously and got eaten up by Lennox anyway. Either way he was stopped fair and square.

With regards to a rematch, I'd say if Lewis would've continued fighting then he should've certainly rematched Vitali, but he didn't so I don't really see why he gets stick for retiring. If he'd had enough then thats his decision and his perogative. It's not the fans that get hit in the face for a living, when a fighter wants to call it a day then good luck to them I say.

100% correct.

How many times have we have boxing fans wished that a fighter would/should have retired sooner, yet Lennox Lewis gets stick from some people for retiring on top, with all his wealth & faculties intact, with nothing else left to prove.

[bigjack]

Vitali is far from the best name on Lewis' record. Even if you base it on abilty/ form Holyfield is a bigger scalp.

As for the whole Vitali Vs Lennox debate I don't get it. Vitali might have been edging it on the scorecards, but he was stopped. The reality is, if you cut easily or are cut in a fight then you should be smart enough to protect yourself. Adapt your style and move to plan B. Vitali got cut to ribbons in that fight and the fact he might have still been in it on the cards is irrelevant. He should've looked after his face better, but maybe then he'd have had to fight more cautiously and got eaten up by Lennox anyway. Either way he was stopped fair and square.

With regards to a rematch, I'd say if Lewis would've continued fighting then he should've certainly rematched Vitali, but he didn't so I don't really see why he gets stick for retiring. If he'd had enough then thats his decision and his perogative. It's not the fans that get hit in the face for a living, when a fighter wants to call it a day then good luck to them I say.

100% correct.

How many times have we have boxing fans wished that a fighter would/should have retired sooner, yet Lennox Lewis gets stick from some people for retiring on top, with all his wealth & faculties intact, with nothing else left to prove.

He knew the time was right to retire,it's only for vitalis great chin that he wasn't dropped and they were some of the worst cuts i have ever seen,proof if it was ever needed that lewis was landing big and accurate punches on target.

[Raff The Frenchman]

I thought the version of Vitali Lewis beat would have handled the version of Holyfield that Lewis beat.
Don't know if he was the best name but he sure is top3

[crusader]

Vitali is far from the best name on Lewis' record. Even if you base it on abilty/ form Holyfield is a bigger scalp.

As for the whole Vitali Vs Lennox debate I don't get it. Vitali might have been edging it on the scorecards, but he was stopped. The reality is, if you cut easily or are cut in a fight then you should be smart enough to protect yourself. Adapt your style and move to plan B. Vitali got cut to ribbons in that fight and the fact he might have still been in it on the cards is irrelevant. He should've looked after his face better, but maybe then he'd have had to fight more cautiously and got eaten up by Lennox anyway. Either way he was stopped fair and square.

With regards to a rematch, I'd say if Lewis would've continued fighting then he should've certainly rematched Vitali, but he didn't so I don't really see why he gets stick for retiring. If he'd had enough then thats his decision and his perogative. It's not the fans that get hit in the face for a living, when a fighter wants to call it a day then good luck to them I say.

100% correct.

How many times have we have boxing fans wished that a fighter would/should have retired sooner, yet Lennox Lewis gets stick from some people for retiring on top, with all his wealth & faculties intact, with nothing else left to prove.

In the eyes of most fans, Lewis did have something to prove though and thus a large backlash when he announced his retirement.

[crusader]

Only from people who did not understand the TKO ruling and insisted on blathering on about VK getting 'robbed' when it was any such thing. He had ample time to get Lewis out off there, failed, was cut and was stopped, Lewis did not owe Vitali, or the fans, jack poop. Part of VK's problem has been that he spent years waiting for a fight with Lewis that he viewed as his birthright.

Lewis retired, he isn't to blame for the Sanders, Williams, Peter, Gomez and Johnson fights.

Yes, but that was a whole lot of people and therefore there was still something left for Lewis to prove, at least to most boxing fans. Even given the fact that Lewis won the fight fair and square and had the top part of Klitschko's face ripped off, it was a great, back and forth fight and with Vitali ahead, and giving as good as he got for the most part. The action itself was very even and a rematch would've been virtually 50-50, so I think Lewis really could have cleared the air up with Klitschko and settled things with a second fight.

[Adamj1987]

lewis beat vitali fair and square get over it

should everyone who won by Ko whilst behind be called a cheat or whatever - no