Mike Tyson, The Amateur, Versus, The Pros

[HomicideHenry]

Controversial and ThatOne, in the midst of the Johansson/Clay debate(s), often brought up the hypothetical scenario as to whether the amateur Mike Tyson could have handled himself against capable pros in four and ten round bouts [ie, Tyson/Williams was one such example].

Originally my position was that the amateur Tyson, who struggled with Henry Tillman, wouldn't have been able to handle himself against the top 25 HW's of that time regardless of the scheduled round length. ThatOne, I believe, based his argument on Tyson's power, that certainly the 18 year old Tyson fresh out of the amateurs could have kayoed the undefeated Carl Williams who was then 11-0, like he did when the two met in 1989.

With the HW top ten consisting of the likes of Larry Holmes, Greg Page, Tim Witherspoon, Pinklon Thomas, and others, it seemed like a 'no-brainer' to judge that a raw Tyson in his pro debut would have been man-handled by such men---however, I got to thinking about it, and dived in and did some research, and changed my opinion a little bit on the scenario of Tyson against a seasoned pro in his debut.

Probably one of the earliest indications to lean towards the idea that Tyson could have defeated a seasoned pro in his debut comes from the training habits that were instilled into him from Teddy Atlas and Cus D'Amato. Cus didn't train Tyson for the amateurs, though Mike would compete in several amateur competitions and would knock out many of the top Junior and Senior competitors from 1981-1984.

D'Amato's style for Tyson was more suited to the professional system of boxing, to be 'exciting', to inflict damage without being on the receiving end, to knock out opponents rather than score points---some of Tyson's losses in the amateurs wasn't because Tyson was inferior to his opponents, but because the rules are so vastly different [a knockdown is worth a point, a single jab from the knocked down opponent can make the fight even again].

Tyson sparred reguarly with welterweights and middleweights to build up his speed and defense, but he also was put in with actual professional boxers on occasion. One such instance was when Tyson was 16 years old, and his "opponent" was Frank Bruno, who was at the time 22 years of age. Bruno, at the time, was the youngest heavyweight British amateur champion in history and was to embark on a pro career. D'Amato asked Frank Duffy to have Bruno spar with Mike, and Duffy obliged. The result was a two round sparring session with Tyson emurging the 'victor' over the more experienced Bruno.

Duffy, of course, claims that Cus had asked Bruno to take it easy on Mike, and that Tyson came at Bruno full force---however the story has a loop hole, considering a seasoned amateur about to turn pro certainly would have been able to handle a 16 year old who was still competing in the Junior division. Bruno would turn pro in 1982 and would go 21-0-0 with 21 kayos before losing.

Another instance in Tyson's life goes back even further, when the boy was 13 and began getting trained by Bobby Stewart, a successful amateur and pro who defeated the likes of Michael Dokes in the amateurs. He was the one who introduced Tyson to D'Amato. To impress Cus, Stewart and Mike sparred two rounds. Though Stewart didn't admit it then, he would later say that the 13 year old Tyson's body punches were tremendous, almost breaking his ribs. Stewart had to use his vast experience to keep Tyson, again only 13 years old and no amateur bouts, off of him. D'Amato became a Tyson fan immediately after what he saw.

Rumors throughout the years have also mentioned encounters with Evander Holyfield and Lennox Lewis. Holyfield certainly never sparred the rising heavyweight amateur, though they met several times in passing through the several tournaments staged throughout the country during that time. Lewis, on the other hand, did in fact spar Tyson from time to time, though it is not clear as to whether or not Tyson was superior to Lewis and vice versa, though both men have made their claims to have thrashed eachother.

Among Tyson's sparring partners during his years at Catskill, New York were heavyweights "Big" Joe Egan (Irish Heavyweight amateur champion), Nate Tubbs, and Jose Ribalta. Tyson would later fight Ribalta as a professional, knocking him out in the 10th round. Clearly, this wasn't just an amateur stand-out. Mike Tyson, even then, was being groomed for one singular purpose: to become the most fierce and dominate heavyweight in the world. His sparring partners, his training style, was all meant for someone who was professional. From 13-17, Mike Tyson was just that, a professional.

The hapless rabble of victims of 1985, certainly, would have been anihilated by the same Tyson who slapped Egan from pillar to post. For the most part, the early 1986 roster that Tyson mowed through, would have as well. Therein lies the problem---where's the cutting off point? Would Tyson have had problematic issues with Jesse Ferguson, James Tillis, Mitch Green, and Jose Ribalta anyways?

IMHO, when I really reflect on this, I hate to say it, I have to agree with ThatOne on this. Tyson, even as a pro debut, would have ultimately kayoed the 11-0 Carl Williams. Maybe not in the first round as he did in 1989, but eventually he would have. I'll go as far as to say, had he been groomed to take on Berbick in 1985 from the start---its plausible that Tyson could have handled himself against him in a four, six, or even eight round bout. As I stated before, from the start Tyson was trained like a professional from one of boxing's greatest minds, he wouldn't have been a mere opponent for Berbick, not with D'Amato behind the muscle; if anyone could have pulled such an upset off, it would have been the original Team Tyson.

[Controversial]

Controversial and ThatOne, in the midst of the Johansson/Clay debate(s), often brought up the hypothetical scenario as to whether the amateur Mike Tyson could have handled himself against capable pros in four and ten round bouts [ie, Tyson/Williams was one such example].

Jeez how many times do I have to say this. I'll try again. All my posts on this subject I was talking about Tyson at 18. He turned pro at 18, and was 4-0 as a pro when he was 18. Not once did I ever mention any amateur beating any pro.

However I was the person who bought up the whole novice Tyson beating Williams/Spinks debate so I'm glad you have seen sense and come around to my way of thinking

[dempseyfire]

Why are these suddenlt 4 round bouts? Why on earth would Berbick suddenly start fighting 4 rounders again?

Amateurs spar with pros all the time, I don't think there was anythig special about the way Tyson trained as an amateur. Most highly successful amateurs intend to go pro anyway.

In 8 or 10 round fights, Tyson has very little chance vs anyone in the top 10 in 1985. Even Carl the glass chin of Truth Williams. There was a reason the people who knew Tyson's ability the best . . .Cus, Jacobs, Rooney, all the other handlers etc. put Tyson in with complete tomato cans his first year. Tyson needed a lot of confidence boosters as he had issues there. This was the same guy who was in tears before a bout b/c he was afraid of failure. He also needed to develop his boxing skills vs guys with good jabs who could move. After two rounds of being jabbed and pot-shotted by Williams after only 4 pro fights, Tyson's gonna get frustrated and fall apart. He even went into one-punch stalker mode vs Tillis and only deserved a draw in that bout IMO due to James frustrating the hell out of Tyson. Sure he has that chance of landing a perfect shot on the chin but hell you could make that case for any amateur with a knockout punch.

[Controversial]

Why are these suddenlt 4 round bouts? Why on earth would Berbick suddenly start fighting 4 rounders again?

Amateurs spar with pros all the time, I don't think there was anythig special about the way Tyson trained as an amateur. Most highly successful amateurs intend to go pro anyway.

In 8 or 10 round fights, Tyson has very little chance vs anyone in the top 10 in 1985. Even Carl the glass chin of Truth Williams. After two rounds of being jabbed and pot-shotted by Williams after only 4 pro fights, Tyson's gonna get frustrated and fall apart.

Its a hypothetical question isn't it, like most posts on these sites. Of course a seasoned fighter rarely fights a novice pro.

The point is would Williams take a novice Tyson 10 rounds? I reckon the first time Tyson clocks him the fight would be over, just as it was when they fought for real.

Styles makes fights and Tillis was a very capable, solid and cagey fighter. He probably would have given Tyson problems whenever they fought, his style of fighting frustrated Tyson. We have all seen that Tyson could get frustrated when things didn't go his way. I just don't think Williams had the chin to last long enough to bother Tyson, or Spinks for that matter.

[wouter]

After two rounds of being jabbed and pot-shotted by Williams after only 4 pro fights, Tyson's gonna get frustrated and fall apart.

Isn't that exactly what happened when they sparred when Tyson was still an amateur and Williams a novice professional?

[HomicideHenry]

After two rounds of being jabbed and pot-shotted by Williams after only 4 pro fights, Tyson's gonna get frustrated and fall apart.

Isn't that exactly what happened when they sparred when Tyson was still an amateur and Williams a novice professional?

Amen wouter. Carl Williams was indeed a sparring partner for the amateur Mike Tyson.

[Controversial]

After two rounds of being jabbed and pot-shotted by Williams after only 4 pro fights, Tyson's gonna get frustrated and fall apart.

Isn't that exactly what happened when they sparred when Tyson was still an amateur and Williams a novice professional?

To me sparring sessions mean nothing. It has to be remembered the 'star' fighter is often out of shape & overweight when thy start training for a fight. The sparring partners are normally full time hired help and pro fighters thereselves, so they are usually in good shape. They also wear headgear and bigger gloves, decreasing the power of any punches landed. Plus sparring is to work on moves, not to knock the crap out of each other ( unless your in Philly )

Its not unusual for sparring partners to have great success against world class fighters and even world champs. British cruiserweight Glenn McCrory sparred hundreds of rounds with Tyson without ever being floored, his claim to fame and something Glen likes to remind people. Also Tyson was decked by Greg Page before the Douglas fight.

I've heard stories that heavyweight Elijah Tillery (of Riddick Bowe kicking fame) was sensational in the gym and would often dominate everyone he sparred with. The fact is the difference between sparring and actual fights is immense and therefore little can read into these stories.

[Rocky Balboa]

In the build-up to Tyson-Williams in July 1989, HBO showed some footage (which I have) of Tyson & Williams sparring in 1983, when Tyson was 16! Tyson does get caught with a few jabs, but apart from that, its him who is pressureing Williams. Even at 16, the head-movement is implemented well by Tyson. The speed is there for all too see!

During the build-up, both fighters are asked to comment on the sparring sessions. Williams reckons he busted Tyson up, while Mike gives a more honest view saying I was 16, a developing fighter, so of course I got hit, but he could not kill me then & I'm ten times the fighter now!

Pretty sure Tyson & Bruno also sparred aswell?

[HomicideHenry]

In the build-up to Tyson-Williams in July 1989, HBO showed some footage (which I have) of Tyson & Williams sparring in 1983, when Tyson was 16! Tyson does get caught with a few jabs, but apart from that, its him who is pressureing Williams. Even at 16, the head-movement is implemented well by Tyson. The speed is there for all too see!

During the build-up, both fighters are asked to comment on the sparring sessions. Williams reckons he busted Tyson up, while Mike gives a more honest view saying I was 16, a developing fighter, so of course I got hit, but he could not kill me then & I'm ten times the fighter now!

Pretty sure Tyson & Bruno also sparred aswell?

As I said in the first post, Duffy brought Bruno in to spar Tyson at the request of D'Amato. They sparred two rounds, Tyson dominated. He was only 16 at the time, Bruno was just about to turn pro and was the Amateur HW champion of Great Britain. Years later when Tyson was champion, he retold the story of how he easily handled Bruno to the press when they were amateurs.