Cassius Clay vs Ingemar Johansson, The Debate Continues!

[granberry]

When they had that impromptu sparring session in 1961,
Clay had about a 2 inch height advantage,
a 6 inch reach advantage and a ten year youth advantage.
Johansson had about a ten pound weight advantage.
Clay had about 5 pro fights at this point.
anyone seen the entire two rounds if it was recorded on film that is?
Johannson doesnt appear so outclassed to me anyway as the story has grown over the last 30 years.

Remember, the Ali salesmen have to be quite SELECTIVE in what they allow you to see.

[zojo]

We have all heard about the story of Ali and Johansson and their sparring match while Ingo was champ.

You know, Ali (or Clay at the time) made Ingo look foolish so he was asked to leave camp...

However, the time I first read about that story was during a bio of Ali.

Has anyone ever come across Ingo's camp's side of the story?

Was it as one sided as we have come to believe or is it an example of one side of the story winning out over another simply because more people tell it that way and therefore it is now seen as truth?

[granberry]

We have all heard about the story of Ali and Johansson and their sparring match while Ingo was champ.

You know, Ali (or Clay at the time) made Ingo look foolish so he was asked to leave camp...

However, the time I first read about that story was during a bio of Ali.

Has anyone ever come across Ingo's camp's side of the story?

Was it as one sided as we have come to believe or is it an example of one side of the story winning out over another simply because more people tell it that way and therefore it is now seen as truth?

Do you mean to say that there is a big PR operation going on to SELL SELL SELL Ali?

[HomicideHenry]

We have all heard about the story of Ali and Johansson and their sparring match while Ingo was champ.

You know, Ali (or Clay at the time) made Ingo look foolish so he was asked to leave camp...

However, the time I first read about that story was during a bio of Ali.

Has anyone ever come across Ingo's camp's side of the story?

Was it as one sided as we have come to believe or is it an example of one side of the story winning out over another simply because more people tell it that way and therefore it is now seen as truth?

There is an old saying that history is written by the winners. We remember Washington's victory over the British army on that cold winters night, but the historians will fail to tell you that Washington also lost more battles than he won during his military career. All in all, the English were superior in every way to the American forces---they just happened to make one mistake, and that was all it took to look foolish.

Ali is remembered for being the best known athlete in history, for his wars with Foreman, Frazier, Norton and others. Johansson is remembered for his trilogy with Patterson. In the end, I believe, because Ali proved to be the better fighter in the end, the Johansson/Ali sparring sessions been blown up, exaggerated, to fit the legend of Cassius Clay aka Muhammad Ali.

Truth is, two rounds with big padded gloves and head gear, between a 5-0-0 novice and a former worlds champion, was just an event, a happening---nothing more or less, but a chance for Dundee and Ali to get press. Johansson never looked good in training as it was anyways, and it was all a kid gloves affair all the way around---there was no bad intentions behind the punches from either man.

From what I understand, from Johansson's biography, he claimed that Dundee kept warning Ingo not to throw his right hand, and Ali was joking and clowning in the ring, being brash and cocky and it frankly annoyed and pissed Johansson off. He ended the session after two rounds and didn't do any more open sparring sessions for the public any more leading up to the Patterson rubber match.

My theory is, the truth lies between the two extremes. Johansson claims Dundee was asking him not to throw 'The Hammer of Thor' at Ali, while Ali claims he easily handled Johansson. IMO, the truth is that it was probably all done in jest to begin with, Johansson willing to see what this young upstart had to bring to the table, and then felt betrayed by the kids constant catcalls of 'You're a bum!'