George Foreman Circa 1973 V Sonny Liston Circa 1962

ThatOne · Post by **ThatOne** » 21 Dec 2009, 19:21

Who wins and why?

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 21 Dec 2009, 19:23

You've already got this one up, brojam. Scroll about midway down the page, then ask the Mods to delete this one

ThatOne · Post by **ThatOne** » 21 Dec 2009, 19:28

Goodnight, Irene wrote:You've already got this one up, brojam. Scroll about midway down the page, then ask the Mods to delete this one

I fixed it. I like this match up and I like Big George in it

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 21 Dec 2009, 19:30

Could go either way (I keep saying that in these ones). This is a desperate affair in which, reluctantly (Foreman's my all-time favourite fighter) I back Liston.

Edit: Damn, I accidentally voted for Foreman (maybe that's my bias creeping through

) meant to cast a vote for Liston.

ThatOne · Post by **ThatOne** » 21 Dec 2009, 19:33

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Could go either way (I keep saying that in these ones). This is a desperate affair in which, reluctantly (Foreman's my all-time favourite fighter) I back Liston.

Edit: Damn, I accidentally voted for Foreman (maybe that's my bias creeping through ) meant to cast a vote for Liston.

Foreman is the bigger, stronger fighter with more heart. Even with Liston's long reach it is not enough.

Foreman would just use his size to push off the considerably smaller Liston when he got in close.

I have Foreman beating just about any boxer of the last fifty years.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 21 Dec 2009, 19:35

Ah, just saw you listed the Liston of '62. I think, if you meant the prime Liston, he probably looked a little sharper around '58-60.

Prime-for-prime, I will later elaborate on why I'm picking against Foreman.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 21 Dec 2009, 23:57

Foreman inside of 4

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 22 Dec 2009, 05:37

Both men just gave up in their fights with Ali. Liston was mean enough to take his lumps in fights. It was more humiliation that he couldn't handle. Foreman gave up through physical and mental fatigue.

Liston was the better boxer with Foreman the most powerful. I think the tighter boxer, Liston, would tip the balance in his favour.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 22 Dec 2009, 10:32

Gotta disagree with that assessment Ezzard. Ali seldom get's credit for the fact that he withstood some tremendous shots (they weren't all blocked or cushioned) from Foreman in the Rumble In The Jungle. Liston quit because he was losing, Foreman made a much better effort.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 22 Dec 2009, 12:11

To call Liston 'a considerably smaller man' is just not accurate. Liston at his peak weighed about 5 lbs less than Foreman did, had longer arms and even bigger fists/neck. Liston was a very big man. He was also a better boxer than Foreman and was much cooler under fire. I like Liston by a knockout in an entertaining scrap.

ThatOne · Post by **ThatOne** » 22 Dec 2009, 12:48

dempseyfire wrote:To call Liston 'a considerably smaller man' is just not accurate. Liston at his peak weighed about 5 lbs less than Foreman did, had longer arms and even bigger fists/neck. Liston was a very big man. He was also a better boxer than Foreman and was much cooler under fire. I like Liston by a knockout in an entertaining scrap.

He was three inches taller and was a legit 225.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 22 Dec 2009, 13:05

Seamus wrote:Gotta disagree with that assessment Ezzard. Ali seldom get's credit for the fact that he withstood some tremendous shots (they weren't all blocked or cushioned) from Foreman in the Rumble In The Jungle. Liston quit because he was losing, Foreman made a much better effort.

I think of it like this... Replace Foreman with Liston in Zaire and I think Liston can win OR makes a much better fight of it. Liston wasn't hitting Ali in their fight. Foreman was being invited to tee off. Foreman was having more success but he was losing the battle partly because Ali was so good, partly because he was in Zaire and partly because he fought the wrong fight.

If Liston was in Foreman's palcwe he would not have made the same errors.

ThatOne · Post by **ThatOne** » 22 Dec 2009, 13:15

Ezzard wrote:
Seamus wrote:Gotta disagree with that assessment Ezzard. Ali seldom get's credit for the fact that he withstood some tremendous shots (they weren't all blocked or cushioned) from Foreman in the Rumble In The Jungle. Liston quit because he was losing, Foreman made a much better effort.
I think of it like this... Replace Foreman with Liston in Zaire and I think Liston can win OR makes a much better fight of it. Liston wasn't hitting Ali in their fight. Foreman was being invited to tee off. Foreman was having more success but he was losing the battle partly because Ali was so good, partly because he was in Zaire and partly because he fought the wrong fight.

If Liston was in Foreman's palcwe he would not have made the same errors.

Respectfully, I an not convinced that Liston wouldn't have fell for the rope a dope. And Ali had a lot of success against George in the middle of the ring. For what's it worth Angelo Dundee claims Ali didn't need the rope a dope as he was having success in the middle of the ring.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 22 Dec 2009, 17:16

I place nothing in Dundee's word when it comes to Ali. Truly, I don't.

Anyway, back on-topic for the point I wanted to make --- it is just not accurate to portray Foreman is dramatically bigger --- he gives up dimensions in reach, fist diameter, neck width, &, in return, he's three inches taller (not insignificant, but hardly fight-determining) & absolutely no more than ten pounds (routinely, fewer than that) heavier.

He may've been stronger than Liston (& that's debatable, for mine), but he wasn't the better fighter all-round. That may not have been a factor with guys who hit like these two (what's interesting is both could take a licking, as they had both heart & chin to go with one-punch knockout power). I really think it is a close call, but have to edge toward The Night Train's better skill-set, more precise punching, & superior jab. Wouldn't put any cash down, & would be cheering Big George all the way, though.

Here's a question --- what about the intimidation factor? Who stares who down? I have a feeling --- & I could be wrong --- that Liston gets the better of that.

ThatOne · Post by **ThatOne** » 22 Dec 2009, 19:26

Goodnight, Irene wrote:I place nothing in Dundee's word when it comes to Ali. Truly, I don't.

Anyway, back on-topic for the point I wanted to make --- it is just not accurate to portray Foreman is dramatically bigger --- he gives up dimensions in reach, fist diameter, neck width, &, in return, he's three inches taller (not insignificant, but hardly fight-determining) & absolutely no more than ten pounds (routinely, fewer than that) heavier.

He may've been stronger than Liston (& that's debatable, for mine), but he wasn't the better fighter all-round. That may not have been a factor with guys who hit like these two (what's interesting is both could take a licking, as they had both heart & chin to go with one-punch knockout power). I really think it is a close call, but have to edge toward The Night Train's better skill-set, more precise punching, & superior jab. Wouldn't put any cash down, & would be cheering Big George all the way, though.

Here's a question --- what about the intimidation factor? Who stares who down? I have a feeling --- & I could be wrong --- that Liston gets the better of that.

IMHO, there were lots of more polished or complete fighters than Foreman but few of them who could beat him. He just hit so hard.

Why the Dundee dislike? I don't get it. Any manager is going to protect his fighter. Ditto for Ferdie.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 22 Dec 2009, 22:55

Dundee grates, but Pacheco is the absolute worst, bar none.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 22 Dec 2009, 23:48

Liston was 6'1 to George's 6'3 and weighed around 210-215 at his peak. Foreman was 215-225 at his peak. You are talking about 5-10 lbs at best, which at heavyweight is simple semantics. Liston was a big dude.

Sonny fought way too methodically to ever fall for the rope-a-dope like Foreman did. George fought one of the WORST fightplans in the history of the ring in Zaire. I think it would have been a great fight with ALi having his moments but in 74 he loses to Liston.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 22 Dec 2009, 23:53

Anyone who put money on it would have my pity. I can see faces ageing at ringside with each thunderous blow the two men landed on one another.

The corners of both men would be hanging by a prayer.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 23 Dec 2009, 06:52

dempseyfire wrote:
Sonny fought way too methodically to ever fall for the rope-a-dope like Foreman did.

That's how I see it. Ali would still have his bursts when he'd come out and spear Sonny but unlike Foreman, Liston would be working at breaking him down and winning rounds rather than finding the goodnight punch.

ThatOne · Post by **ThatOne** » 23 Dec 2009, 07:23

George Foreman had Archie Moore and Sandy Sadler in his corner; two grizzled wise men. If they couldn't see what was unfurling in front of them (rope a dope) why would Sonny Liston?

It wasn't until the seventh round when a commentator said "Ali is becoming very comfortable with the pace of the fight. Maybe he's content to let George punch himself out."

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 23 Dec 2009, 07:48

Ali spent long periods in every round doing very little but smothering the attack. Then he'd spring into life, barely missing a punch and draining George physically and psychologically.

Foreman and Liston are different fighters. Doesn’t matter who was in the corner.

I believe Liston would have handled the older Ali, on that night in Zaire, better than Foreman did.

ThatOne · Post by **ThatOne** » 23 Dec 2009, 08:28

Ezzard wrote:Ali spent long periods in every round doing very little but smothering the attack. Then he'd spring into life, barely missing a punch and draining George physically and psychologically.

Foreman and Liston are different fighters. Doesn’t matter who was in the corner.

I believe Liston would have handled the older Ali, on that night in Zaire, better than Foreman did.

It would have been hard not to. That being said I still think 74 Ali beats any version of Liston. He still had incredibly fast hands, nimble if not freakish foot speed and reflexes, and heart.

IMHO, Sonny can't think about beating Ali until after Manila.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 23 Dec 2009, 09:59

ThatOne wrote:
Ezzard wrote:Ali spent long periods in every round doing very little but smothering the attack. Then he'd spring into life, barely missing a punch and draining George physically and psychologically.

Foreman and Liston are different fighters. Doesn’t matter who was in the corner.

I believe Liston would have handled the older Ali, on that night in Zaire, better than Foreman did.

It would have been hard not to. That being said I still think 74 Ali beats any version of Liston. He still had incredibly fast hands, nimble if not freakish foot speed and reflexes, and heart.

IMHO, Sonny can't think about beating Ali until after Manila.

Be fair TO, you don't give anyone much of a chance against Ali - even those who beat him!

ThatOne · Post by **ThatOne** » 23 Dec 2009, 10:25

Ezzard wrote:
ThatOne wrote:
Ezzard wrote:Ali spent long periods in every round doing very little but smothering the attack. Then he'd spring into life, barely missing a punch and draining George physically and psychologically.

Foreman and Liston are different fighters. Doesn’t matter who was in the corner.

I believe Liston would have handled the older Ali, on that night in Zaire, better than Foreman did.

It would have been hard not to. That being said I still think 74 Ali beats any version of Liston. He still had incredibly fast hands, nimble if not freakish foot speed and reflexes, and heart.

IMHO, Sonny can't think about beating Ali until after Manila.
Be fair TO, you don't give anyone much of a chance against Ali - even those who beat him!

I am granberry's antithesis. I just think he was a special fighter with incredible reflexes, innate sense of distance, and hand and foot spped. Those are things you can not teach. And when those were robbed by age he showed enormous heart.

I rate Foreman highly too for his unbelievable power. You can't teach that either.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 23 Dec 2009, 11:14

Don't get me wrong, I would very rarely bet against Ali. I just enjoy sepculation!