Roy Jones, Jr., Is he in the top 30 All-Time???

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 20 Jan 2005, 11:39

Hello my people!!!

I got a question to ask you, since boxing knowledge in this forum is the best that there MORE THAN any forum I have ever been.

My question is...Where do you rank the great Roy Jones, Jr??? He was a fighter of EXTRAORDINARY TALENT of rare combination of speed and power, but in my opinion he did not fight against THE VERY BEST OF HIS GENERATION. The Boxing Writers of America selected him as the best fighter of the 90s, WHICH I COMPLETELY DISAGREE (That nod is for Pernell Whitaker not Jones for the best fighter of his time).

I consider him a top 50 all time great fighter, but a top 30??? I got to see your answers about this one. Some Roy Jones fans probably are upset with me.

Was he better than this LEGENDS???: Sugar Ray Robinson, Henry Armstrong, Muhammad Ali, Joe Louis, Roberto Duran???

How about these???: Joe Gans, Willie Pep, Jack Johnson, Benny Leonard, Harry Greb,

And these??? Sam Langford, Sugar Ray Leonard, Rocky Marciano, Pernell Whitaker, Carlos Monzon, Jimmy Wilde, Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore

How about these??? Marvin Hagler, Jack Dempsey, Sandy Saddler, Julio Cesar Chavez, Alexis Arguello, Eder Jofre, Stanley Ketchel,

Let's try these: Barney Ross, Evander Holyfield, Emile Griffith, Ike Williams and Tony Canzoneri

Was Jones better than anyone in this list??? and if so, EXPLAIN WHY???

tonyevs · Post by **tonyevs** » 20 Jan 2005, 12:04

Jones did indeed fight some good opposition, look to his record.

And Jones could in my opinion have beaten any past champion in at least two of the divisions he held titles at.
And lets not forget he held titles at four different weights altogether.

I would rate him p4p ahead of many of the names you have put forward.

Grimm · Post by **Grimm** » 20 Jan 2005, 16:43

I think we will have to wait and see if his career is truly washed up, maybe he'll comeback and kick some ass for revenge.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 20 Jan 2005, 18:01

A top 30 of all time is a tremendously hard list to think of, but I would say yes he would be (no matter what happens from here on).

Lausse · Post by **Lausse** » 20 Jan 2005, 20:11

If your ranking him in the top 30 on nothing more then pure athletic ability,talent,blazing handspeed and reflexes then yes he certainly does belong in the top ten,top five even.

But if your ranking him in terms of accomplishments,quality of opposition,a desire to seek out the best and fight the best his entire career and overcoming adversity to come back and win then no he doesnt find room anywhere near the top 30,let alone top 100 IMO.

Lets not confuse phenominal talent with what he accomplished during his career which quite frankly isnt anything to get excited about.You have to beat other great or almost great fighters to be considered an all time great fighter yourself,and many times you have to fight these other great fighters more then once to show who really is the better fighter.Theres no other way to measure it,and Jones has never given a rematch to either of the greats he faced during his career in both Hopkins and Toney.As far as defeating Ruiz is concerned that is not really as spectacular a feat as many people make it out to be.

Who here is gonna tell me with a straight face that Archie Moore,Ezzard Charles,Harold Johnson,Billy Conn to name but a few former lightheavyweight champions couldnt have soundly defeated the likes of that plodding huggy bear John Ruiz.I would have even picked Moore and Charles to stop Ruiz before the final bell.Heck,id even pick former middleweights champions Harry Greb and Mickey Walker to outpoint Ruiz over the distance yet some people fall all over themselves praising this meaningless win by Jones over this disgrace of a heavyweight title holder named John Ruiz.

To finish id like to add that beating guys who do nothing but stand in front of you and dont push you to excel does not make you a GREAT fighter.It showcases your ability and talent,but it doesnt in any way,shape or form show greatness to me,no way.

Professor X · Post by **Professor X** » 22 Jan 2005, 23:20

No, Roy Jones isn't top-30 all-time. He's more like top-100 or top-150 all-time.

I say the same thing now as I said when he was undefeated and some people were calling him the greatest of all time, no questions asked: He ABSOLUTELY should have been KO'ing all those security guards, teachers and mailmen that he fought. He should have rematched Hopkins (Jones would have lost that rematch FOR SURE). His power (especially) and skill is vastly overrated. I'd rank Azumah Nelson, Pea Whitaker, Felix Trinidad, Evander Holyfield, Ricardo Lopez and Lennox Lewis over Roy Jones, among fighters from the nineties.

Today, I would say: If he is top-30 all-time (which is, like, really high.. way too high for him IMO), and he got KTFO'ed like he did these last two fights simply because of losing 20 lbs of weight, like so many of his blind followers claim, then he should put that natural weight back on and go looking for blown-up James Toney (well, Jones said he wants to continue boxing). That is EXACTLY the kind of thing that an Evander Holyfield or Ray Robinson (two champions at the age of 36 and 37, respectively, against the toughest of competition) would do.

tonyevs · Post by **tonyevs** » 23 Jan 2005, 07:24

I would agree Roy Jones is shot as a fighter but what he achieved in an amazing career cements his place for me as an all time top 10 p4p.

Did Hopkins or Toney make it a close fight?? Was there any dispute about the verdict??
Sure they bleated excuses after and even made out they wanted a rematch, but Jones beat them, and convincingly.

When he stepped up to heavy it is true that he beat a poor champion, but I will add a very effective and clever champion who regained the title after.
Ruiz is better than he looks.
And Jones was hardly an overwhelming favourite in the fight also, many experts had him the underdog.

It`s easy to knock him after his last 3 fights but that was the shell of the fighter.
Middle and supermiddle I would put him as the best ever, or at the very least evens to beat every other.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 24 Jan 2005, 15:03

The Raging B(_)LL wrote:If your ranking him in the top 30 on nothing more then pure athletic ability,talent,blazing handspeed and reflexes then yes he certainly does belong in the top ten,top five even.

But if your ranking him in terms of accomplishments,quality of opposition,a desire to seek out the best and fight the best his entire career and overcoming adversity to come back and win then no he doesnt find room anywhere near the top 30,let alone top 100 IMO.

Lets not confuse phenominal talent with what he accomplished during his career which quite frankly isnt anything to get excited about.You have to beat other great or almost great fighters to be considered an all time great fighter yourself,and many times you have to fight these other great fighters more then once to show who really is the better fighter.Theres no other way to measure it,and Jones has never given a rematch to either of the greats he faced during his career in both Hopkins and Toney.As far as defeating Ruiz is concerned that is not really as spectacular a feat as many people make it out to be.

Who here is gonna tell me with a straight face that Archie Moore,Ezzard Charles,Harold Johnson,Billy Conn to name but a few former lightheavyweight champions couldnt have soundly defeated the likes of that plodding huggy bear John Ruiz.I would have even picked Moore and Charles to stop Ruiz before the final bell.Heck,id even pick former middleweights champions Harry Greb and Mickey Walker to outpoint Ruiz over the distance yet some people fall all over themselves praising this meaningless win by Jones over this disgrace of a heavyweight title holder named John Ruiz.

To finish id like to add that beating guys who do nothing but stand in front of you and dont push you to excel does not make you a GREAT fighter.It showcases your ability and talent,but it doesnt in any way,shape or form show greatness to me,no way.

I'VE GOT TO AGREE WITH THIS PERSON AND FOR EVERY ONE THAT WROTE SOMETHING SIMILAR.

Lausse · Post by **Lausse** » 26 Jan 2005, 15:55

tonyevs wrote:
I would agree Roy Jones is shot as a fighter but what he achieved in an amazing career cements his place for me as an all time top 10 p4p.
I disagree for reasons already stated in my original post.Roy Jones a topten P4P fighter ,i think not.

Did Hopkins or Toney make it a close fight?? Was there any dispute about the verdict??
Sure they bleated excuses after and even made out they wanted a rematch, but Jones beat them, and convincingly.
And your point is what exactly??So they lost their first meeting to Jones,big friggin deal.So by that logic i guess Ali never deserved a rematch versus Frazier after their first fight right??I mean Joe did after all beat the stuffing out of Ali that night and there was no dispute about the verdict either .Just because a fighter loses their first meeting to an opponent does not mean they will lose the second,in case you didnt know a fighter can make adjustments in a rematch.Boxing history has proven this countless times over and over again,and it might have proved it again had Jones agreed to face Hops and Toney in a rematch.

First off the Hopkins fight wasnt a blowout but far from it,Jones did not dominate him at all.In fact the fight in itself was rather boring and uneventful,so for anyone to say that Hopkins didnt deserve a rematch after a few years when he was a significantly improved fighter all around is preposterous to say the least.Hopkins accepted Jones original offer when a rematch was offered but then Jones sudenly decided he wanted Hopkins to move up all the way to Roys weight when the original agreement called for a catch weight.Hopkins told him to screw himself and the fight never materialized as a result.

Now as for the Toney fight yes Jones dominated him,dominated a Toney who had to lose close to 40 pounds of excess weight to make the weight that is and who came in weight drained as a result.See,every single Jones fanboy says that Jones was noticeably affected by having to lose weight to meet Tarver at 175 in their first meeting and frankly i dont even dispute that at all.But so many of you Roy fans say that Toney wasnt affected by his weight loss of 40+ pounds prior to his fight versus Roy and that he lost fair and square,yet you make excuses for Jones performance in the first Tarver meeting due to his weight loss prior to the fight.You guys cant have it both ways,if Jones performance was affected by the weight loss then so was Toney who had to lose even more weight then Jones did in a shorter timespan no less.

When he stepped up to heavy it is true that he beat a poor champion, but I will add a very effective and clever champion who regained the title after.
Ruiz is better than he looks.
Ruiz is better then he looks,how so??He plods his way forward on his two left feet and his entire strategy consist of throwing a jab then lunging in and grabbing his foe with his left hand while hitting him with his free right hand.This move would be illegal if he would just lunge in and grab,but since he throws a jab and then lunges in and grabs he gets away with it since he throws a punch before lunging in to bear hug you.Jay Nady however never let Ruiz get inside or initiate any inside exchanges versus Roy when he did get close enough to possibly inflict some damage on him which obviously greatly benefited Jones.

Jones also used that football sized ring to his full advantage and stayed away all night long and boxed to a decision.Add the fact that Ruiz essentially stopped trying to even win by the 4th round or so and what we have is a lightheavy winning a fight versus his heavyweight foe who not only isnt that good to begin with but who stopped trying to win the fight because the referee wouldnt allow him to fight his fight.And if every other referee did their job the way Nady did that night John Ruiz would not even be a factor in the heavyweight division,so all in all this victory by Jones was overhyped and blown way out of proportion by the boxing scribes of today and HBO to promote Jones as some kind of all time great.

The main reason i really dont give Jones any credit for his win over Ruiz is because every other previous lightheavyweight champion who went up to heavy immediately fought the champion in the division,not some pretender.Foster went up and fought Frazier and Ali and went out on his shield both times with honour,Moore too went up and challenged Marciano and he also went out on his shield and Micheal Spinks moved up and immediately faced the reigning champion of his era in Larry Holmes and won.These men wanted to face the top dog at heavy and did so,whereas Jones went up and strategically picked the slow and plodding Ruiz to fight in a football sized ring and he picked a referee notorious for not allowing any inside fighting in Jay Nady.

And Jones was hardly an overwhelming favourite in the fight also, many experts had him the underdog.
I actually gave Jones a good chance at victory and il tell you why i thought so.Besides the reasons i already mentioned about Ruiz I also knew as soon as they mentioned Nady would be the referee that that would greatly benefit Roy since Jay is notorious for not allowing fighters to fight on the inside or fight their way out of a clinch.And when i heard how big the ring size was gonna be i really thought that Jones would pull it off since he could just stay on the move all night and avoid Ruizs clumsy attempts at lunging in by just moving out of the way and countering him whenever Ruiz tried to do that.As it turned out my prediction was spot on come fight night to the shock of my friends who mostly are Jones fans but who didnt think he could pull it off.

It`s easy to knock him after his last 3 fights but that was the shell of the fighter.
Middle and supermiddle I would put him as the best ever, or at the very least evens to beat every other

At 168 a case can be made for having him the best at that weight,but at middleweight no way in hell.The middleweight division has always been one of the most talented and deep divisions in boxing history,to have Jones ahead of other fighters who accomplished far more then he did and who fought the cream of the crop in their day each time out is an insult to all those other fighters and former champions.Jones resume at 160 and 168 even is average at best,he also never attempted to unify the titles at either weight which hurts his standing historically.

Lets face it,yes Jones was incredibly gifted and talented,but just like another fighter who when i first saw him fight i was incredibly impressed with his natural talent and ability in Donald Curry neither man was very durable.Jones fought the style he did because he never wanted to get hit,and the reason for that is because he knew going toe to toe would be his downfall because of his decent but far from spectacular chin.When Del Valle decked him with a average punch Roy was clearly hurt but to his luck faced an opponent with no killer instinct whatsoever who just let him off the hook and so he recovered to go on and win the fight.

But just imagine had he been in there with a killer with a real punch,Roy would not have made it out of the round,especially if he had retreated into the ropes and tried to cover himself up there like he did versus Del Valle.Roy will go down in boxing history as one of its most naturally talented participants,but he will always have a ? mark about him in my and many other peoples opinion in just how great he really was.He never attempted to unify at any weight he fought at and he did not seek out the best out there when he could have and should have to cement his legacy and remove any doubts.But Jones was always a boxing businessman first and foremost who openly admitted that he didnt care about his legacy and fought for money and money alone,the Ruiz fight was just a very well marketed ploy on his part to try and claim all time great status based on one win over a disgrace of a heavyweight title holder with two left feet in John Ruiz.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 26 Jan 2005, 16:22

The Raging B(_)LL wrote:
tonyevs wrote:
I would agree Roy Jones is shot as a fighter but what he achieved in an amazing career cements his place for me as an all time top 10 p4p.
I disagree for reasons already stated in my original post.Roy Jones a topten P4P fighter ,i think not.

Did Hopkins or Toney make it a close fight?? Was there any dispute about the verdict??
Sure they bleated excuses after and even made out they wanted a rematch, but Jones beat them, and convincingly.
And your point is what exactly??So they lost their first meeting to Jones,big friggin deal.So by that logic i guess Ali never deserved a rematch versus Frazier after their first fight right??I mean Joe did after all beat the stuffing out of Ali that night and there was no dispute about the verdict either .Just because a fighter loses their first meeting to an opponent does not mean they will lose the second,in case you didnt know a fighter can make adjustments in a rematch.Boxing history has proven this countless times over and over again,and it might have proved it again had Jones agreed to face Hops and Toney in a rematch.

First off the Hopkins fight wasnt a blowout but far from it,Jones did not dominate him at all.In fact the fight in itself was rather boring and uneventful,so for anyone to say that Hopkins didnt deserve a rematch after a few years when he was a significantly improved fighter all around is preposterous to say the least.Hopkins accepted Jones original offer when a rematch was offered but then Jones sudenly decided he wanted Hopkins to move up all the way to Roys weight when the original agreement called for a catch weight.Hopkins told him to screw himself and the fight never materialized as a result.

Now as for the Toney fight yes Jones dominated him,dominated a Toney who had to lose close to 40 pounds of excess weight to make the weight that is and who came in weight drained as a result.See,every single Jones fanboy says that Jones was noticeably affected by having to lose weight to meet Tarver at 175 in their first meeting and frankly i dont even dispute that at all.But so many of you Roy fans say that Toney wasnt affected by his weight loss of 40+ pounds prior to his fight versus Roy and that he lost fair and square,yet you make excuses for Jones performance in the first Tarver meeting due to his weight loss prior to the fight.You guys cant have it both ways,if Jones performance was affected by the weight loss then so was Toney who had to lose even more weight then Jones did in a shorter timespan no less.

When he stepped up to heavy it is true that he beat a poor champion, but I will add a very effective and clever champion who regained the title after.
Ruiz is better than he looks.
Ruiz is better then he looks,how so??He plods his way forward on his two left feet and his entire strategy consist of throwing a jab then lunging in and grabbing his foe with his left hand while hitting him with his free right hand.This move would be illegal if he would just lunge in and grab,but since he throws a jab and then lunges in and grabs he gets away with it since he throws a punch before lunging in to bear hug you.Jay Nady however never let Ruiz get inside or initiate any inside exchanges versus Roy when he did get close enough to possibly inflict some damage on him which obviously greatly benefited Jones.

Jones also used that football sized ring to his full advantage and stayed away all night long and boxed to a decision.Add the fact that Ruiz essentially stopped trying to even win by the 4th round or so and what we have is a lightheavy winning a fight versus his heavyweight foe who not only isnt that good to begin with but who stopped trying to win the fight because the referee wouldnt allow him to fight his fight.And if every other referee did their job the way Nady did that night John Ruiz would not even be a factor in the heavyweight division,so all in all this victory by Jones was overhyped and blown way out of proportion by the boxing scribes of today and HBO to promote Jones as some kind of all time great.

The main reason i really dont give Jones any credit for his win over Ruiz is because every other previous lightheavyweight champion who went up to heavy immediately fought the champion in the division,not some pretender.Foster went up and fought Frazier and Ali and went out on his shield both times with honour,Moore too went up and challenged Marciano and he also went out on his shield and Micheal Spinks moved up and immediately faced the reigning champion of his era in Larry Holmes and won.These men wanted to face the top dog at heavy and did so,whereas Jones went up and strategically picked the slow and plodding Ruiz to fight in a football sized ring and he picked a referee notorious for not allowing any inside fighting in Jay Nady.

And Jones was hardly an overwhelming favourite in the fight also, many experts had him the underdog.
I actually gave Jones a good chance at victory and il tell you why i thought so.Besides the reasons i already mentioned about Ruiz I also knew as soon as they mentioned Nady would be the referee that that would greatly benefit Roy since Jay is notorious for not allowing fighters to fight on the inside or fight their way out of a clinch.And when i heard how big the ring size was gonna be i really thought that Jones would pull it off since he could just stay on the move all night and avoid Ruizs clumsy attempts at lunging in by just moving out of the way and countering him whenever Ruiz tried to do that.As it turned out my prediction was spot on come fight night to the shock of my friends who mostly are Jones fans but who didnt think he could pull it off.

It`s easy to knock him after his last 3 fights but that was the shell of the fighter.
Middle and supermiddle I would put him as the best ever, or at the very least evens to beat every other
At 168 a case can be made for having him the best at that weight,but at middleweight no way in hell.The middleweight division has always been one of the most talented and deep divisions in boxing history,to have Jones ahead of other fighters who accomplished far more then he did and who fought the cream of the crop in their day each time out is an insult to all those other fighters and former champions.Jones resume at 160 and 168 even is average at best,he also never attempted to unify the titles at either weight which hurts his standing historically.

Lets face it,yes Jones was incredibly gifted and talented,but just like another fighter who when i first saw him fight i was incredibly impressed with his natural talent and ability in Donald Curry neither man was very durable.Jones fought the style he did because he never wanted to get hit,and the reason for that is because he knew going toe to toe would be his downfall because of his decent but far from spectacular chin.When Del Valle decked him with a average punch Roy was clearly hurt but to his luck faced an opponent with no killer instinct whatsoever who just let him off the hook and so he recovered to go on and win the fight.

But just imagine had he been in there with a killer with a real punch,Roy would not have made it out of the round,especially if he had retreated into the ropes and tried to cover himself up there like he did versus Del Valle.Roy will go down in boxing history as one of its most naturally talented participants,but he will always have a ? mark about him in my and many other peoples opinion in just how great he really was.He never attempted to unify at any weight he fought at and he did not seek out the best out there when he could have and should have to cement his legacy and remove any doubts.But Jones was always a boxing businessman first and foremost who openly admitted that he didnt care about his legacy and fought for money and money alone,the Ruiz fight was just a very well marketed ploy on his part to try and claim all time great status based on one win over a disgrace of a heavyweight title holder with two left feet in John Ruiz.

Oh men, PERFECTLY SAID!!! NO ONE CAN SAY IT BETTER!!!

tonyevs · Post by **tonyevs** » 26 Jan 2005, 16:31

You are using a bad example in the attempt to win your point.
Ali deserved a re-match with Frazier because they had a brilliant fight, (unlike Hopkins or Toney gave Roy Jones.) Ali also claimed he really won it because Frazier was hospitalised for awhile after.
And the fans wanted to see it again.
You say yourself his fight with Hopkins was boring, so how can they sell the re-match and get the money they will both demand.
Hopkins has never said he disputed the verdict, he lost fair and square.

And to make excuses about having to lose 40lb to make weight doesn’t mean anything, this is a professional fighter we are talking about, his weight making is all part of his preparation, just like all the other things he must have ready for fight time.
Was he given a weeks notice?

Jones weight against Tarver was not an issue, he is just past his prime, simple as that.

How can Ruiz have regained the title and defended it successfully against the top in the division if he is as bad as you think?
Surely he`d have got found out again by now?
I am not saying he is great, just one of the best of the present bad bunch.
And you are right that he picked an opponent that best suited his style, but he was never the overwhelming favourite, there was still a challenge.
The challenge was never as big as say Foster against Frazier, but then again that was an awesome challenge to undertake anyway.

You say he fights the way he did because he didn’t want to get hit, well all boxers with only a pinch of sense are the same, and the difference with your comparison with Don Curry only holds up until you compare the length of their time at the top.

Did Roy Jones ever lose whilst in his prime, the disqualification whilst correct should not be counted for obvious reasons, and the only disputed verdict and losses were at the end of a fantastic career.
And if that doesn’t convince you, you only need to look at his record and the results.

Lausse · Post by **Lausse** » 26 Jan 2005, 17:44

tonyevs wrote:
You are using a bad example in the attempt to win your point
Ali deserved a re-match with Frazier because they had a brilliant fight, (unlike Hopkins or Toney gave Roy Jones.) Ali also claimed he really won it because Frazier was hospitalised for awhile after.
And the fans wanted to see it again.
Didnt say yourself that since Hops and Toney both lost to Jones that there was no need for a rematch as a result??So my comparison to the Ali/Frazier 1 fight is very valid,Joe beat the tar out of Ali in their fight,he was beaten up far worse then say Toney was against Jones yet he got a rematch.And i could name countless other fights were an opponent was outclassed or KOed by their foe in their first meeting only to come back and win in dominant fashion after having adjusted their gameplan accordingly for the rematch.And name me one person who wouldnt have tuned in if a Hopkins or Toney rematch were announced,surely you jest when you say these fights wouldnt have pulled in a significantly large audience.

You say yourself his fight with Hopkins was boring, so how can they sell the re-match and get the money they will both demand.
Hopkins has never said he disputed the verdict, he lost fair and square.
Their first meeting may have been boring,but that does not mean a rematch would have followed the same path as the first one.And since by the time a rematch with Hopkins was proposed he was the middleweight king and a much improved fighter that alone would have added an element of drama and intrigue to the fight.As for Toney who wouldnt want to tune in to a rematch between those two,just the press conference quotes alone would have been classics.

Not to mention how both Toney and Jones have a very big fanbase and the fight wouldnt have been difficult to sell at all.And i never said that Hops disputed the original verdict,were did i say otherwise in my previous post?What Nard did say however was that he wanted a rematch versus Jones and the deal was all but done until the issue of Jones wanting Hops to move up in weight arose when the original agreement called for a catch weight.Jones scuttled the fight with that demand and that was the end of that,hardly the actions of a man who was intent on silencing his critics by defeating a previous foe who by then had grown into being the middleweight king.

And to make excuses about having to lose 40lb to make weight doesn’t mean anything, this is a professional fighter we are talking about, his weight making is all part of his preparation, just like all the other things he must have ready for fight time.
Was he given a weeks notice?
But you cannot say he wasnt weight drained when he clearly was,this much was obvious by watching the fight.Toney did not lose the weight properly and has only himself to blame for it that is true,but to say that he wouldnt have performed better had he come into the fight in top form is absurd.He might not have won had he been 100%, either,but at least we would know wether or not Jones is the superior fighter or wether or not he just beat a fighter who was drained from making the weight by losing 40+ pounds within a 2 week timespan.Toney lost the last 40 pounds in the two weeks before the fight and even needed somekind of glucose injection shortly before their fight because he was so drained from losing the weight.Jones defeated a shell of the real Toney in that fight,he didnt beat a 100% focused and ready James.

Jones weight against Tarver was not an issue, he is just past his prime, simple as that.
Typical response from a die hard Jones fan.No,the weight loss did affect him and nobody has claimed otherwise except you that i know of and some Jones haters who laim his chin was always made of glass.Jones still had his blazing handspeed going into the 1st Tarver fight,that much was quite obvious by watching the fight.What he didnt have anymore was the legs and reflexes to get out of the way of trouble like he did in his youth.

How can Ruiz have regained the title and defended it successfully against the top in the division if he is as bad as you think?
Surely he`d have got found out again by now?
Well the general consensus is that Ruiz lost his last fight to Golota and that he has received a gift decision versus Holyfield in their third fight.And he also acted his way to victory in the second Holy fight when he faked a low blow that was ovciously a devastating bodyshot that KOed him.Ruiz is a disgrace of a belt holder,but even he couldve stopped Jones had he been allowed to fight with his usual jab then lunge in and grab and maul his opponent in some kind of weird homosexual mating ritual routine.Nady completely disallowed Ruiz from doing that and as a result he was at a loss and gave up even trying to win.

I am not saying he is great, just one of the best of the present bad bunch.
And you are right that he picked an opponent that best suited his style, but he was never the overwhelming favourite, there was still a challenge.
If every referee did their job the way Nady did in the Jones fight no one would even know of Ruiz.Another reason why he is still champion is because it is difficult to KO someone whos entire startegy consists of lunging forward and sticking their head underneath their opponents arm pit to avoid getting hit in return.Ruiz can hardly even be considered a fighter,he is a grappler masquerading as a boxer really.If not for Don King wanting Ruiz to remain champion to pull in more rican fans to pull in more money he wouldnt even be champion anymore.When the day comes for him to fight Vitaly he wont be chjamp anymore anyways,until then unfortunately he will.

The challenge was never as big as say Foster against Frazier, but then again that was an awesome challenge to undertake anyway.
It was a calculated gamble on Jones part,but it was hardly a awesome challenge,thats pushing it.

You say he fights the way he did because he didn’t want to get hit, well all boxers with only a pinch of sense are the same, and the difference with your comparison with Don Curry only holds up until you compare the length of their time at the top.
My comparison between Curry and Jones is a very good one,neither man were very durable even though they were phenominally gifted athletes.Jones chin was never great and he knew it,hence the reason for fighting such an overly cautious style his entire career.Even the most defensive minded fighters will sometimes initiate an exchange now and then,but i have never once seen Roy do this.He always fought on the backfoot and looked to counter his foe,if he knew he had a cast iron chin he would not have fought as defensive as he did.Like i said if honeyboy Del Valle could shake up and hurt Roy then it is obvious he didnt have a stellar chin,Del Valle is no pwer puncher by any means yet he managed to badly stun and hurt Roy with an average punch.

Did Roy Jones ever lose whilst in his prime, the disqualification whilst correct should not be counted for obvious reasons, and the only disputed verdict and losses were at the end of a fantastic career.
And if that doesn’t convince you, you only need to look at his record and the results.

I know Jones record by heart and own 24 of his fights on VHS,i know what Roy was all about.I even started off as a Jones fan when he hit the boxing scene,but i stopped being a fan when it became obvious he was more interested in being a boxing businessman then a fighter who wanted to be remembered as an all time great.He called out many people and those who answered his challenge were sudenly rebuffed.And their were other names who he never called out but who called him out but he ignored them.Jones only fought because he was good at it,not because he enjoyed it because his heart was never really into it.

And if Jones is so great then why did he look like a scared little boy in the Johnson fight??I tell you why because when Glen rushed accross the ring and immediately trapped and bullied Jones against the ropes he then realized he couldnt dance away out of trouble anymore.When he realized that he got scared and was at a loss since to do anything since he had always relied on his reflexes and speed to get out of trouble.When Ali lost a step he made up for it with an iron will to win and a stellar chin.When Roy lost a step he panicked and tried to only last the distance so as to avoid getting KOed which in the end happened anyway.

Basically one fighter showe what he was really made of when the going got tough and the other froze and got knocked out in the 9th round,big difference.Roy may have had championship level skills and ability,but he sure didnt have a championship heart or will to win.And i also firmly believe that Jones loss via KO2 to Tarver crushed him mentally,for a man of his tremendous ego to be KOed by a single punch must have been hard to swallow.But instead of showing a championship mettle and heart he comes back only to get KOed again in a fight were he wasnt even trying to win but only survive when he realized he was facing a hungry and determined foe in Glen Johnson and that he couldnt dance away from his opponent.Thats not the stuff all time greats are made off in my book,maybe in yours but not in mine.

Senya13 · Post by **Senya13** » 27 Jan 2005, 02:58

The Raging B(_)LL wrote:Boxing history has proven this countless times over and over again,and it might have proved it again had Jones agreed to face Hops and Toney in a rematch.

Hopkins was the best when he could persuade the opponent to come to him and counter him (same as Hagler). That is the style Jones had the most problems with (comparative problems, it's not like he didn't know how to fight effectively against such kind of guys). But in this case Hopkins is still in a lose situation, as he's not smarter than Jones (tactically or strategically), he's much slower, he doesn't have a punch to hurt Jones by one or two punches (and not-too-old Jones wouldn't give him a chance to get more than one or two good punches in a row), he wouldn't be able to do much in clinches or use dirty moves (name me at least one Jones' opponent who gained at least some success in clinches vs Jones; I'll refer to this again below), he's not more durable than Jones (as Jones is one of the best fighters in history in sparing one's strength during the course of the fight, again, name me at least one fight where he looked tired at the end of the fight before Tarver, where he looked tired before the bout even started). If instead he chose to fight more aggressive, he'd lose even more convincingly, as Jones is at best when he's countering. There simply was nothing significant Hopkins could surprise Jones with or adjust to have a real chance to win.
On to Toney. His old-school style also doesn't have much chance for success vs Jones. If he tried to be aggressive, roll with punches and then lung in, he would've never catched a more or less prime Jones (that is 1994-2001 in my opinion) that way, Jones was simply too fast and too good in avoiding such bursts when he wasn't too over-confident (and he wouldn't be if he faced closer-to-good-shape Toney), while countering effectively. If Toney picked to be defensive and counter, again not much a chance. He's not a big puncher to hurt Jones by one or two punches in a row, and he'd not have a chance to land more than that.

First off the Hopkins fight wasnt a blowout but far from it,Jones did not dominate him at all.

Even if you look at Hopkins himself, he was satisfied with himself in one single round (when he went to his corner after that round, he nodded to his team, something like 'I found something'), that is 9th if I remember correctly, where he managed to get 3 straight rights in a row on a retreating Jones, but those punches weren't really solid punches, so he was never even close to hurting Jones during the whole fight. In my opinion, the most that Hopkins deserved was one or two rounds where he looked better than the rest of the fight and that were close enough to give them to him (even though Jones didn't lose a single round in clean punching/effective aggressiveness criteria, not even mentioning the other two criteria that are used to score a fight - defense and ring generalship). I really don't know where the judges found whole 4 rounds to give to Hopkins if they used the above criteria. Even in clinches Jones was better than Hopkins (that is he didn't let Bernard do anything in clinches).
And we shouldn't forget that the fight happened when] both fighters were not in their prime yet and were rather close in pro-boxing experience. Of course, Jones had had better amateur experience than Hopkins, but one has to watch his amateur fights and compare amateur Jones to pro Jones to see how little pro Jones reminds himself as an amateur. Especially if you watch his last amateur fights and his first pro fights, you'd see a completely different fighter (I've never seen any other fighter change so much after they became pro). Jones was a classic amateur, with good movement, jab, head movement, classic combination, he lunged in with fast but not very clean punches vs tall opponents, or he could stand flat-footed and trade. I don't remember anything significant from him in counter-punching tactics in amateur. Then he turns pro. I don't have his 1st fight, so can't comment on it.
2nd fight vs Stephan Johnson. Jones is not too good yet in precision of his punches, he doesn't play yet, he throws his jab often and he trades often in medium distance, not caring much about defense during such exchanges (similar to how he did it as amateur), he seldomly works to the body. But he already learned his usual avoiding of oppoent's blows by slight head movements or by leaning back slightly, he works very good from distance, moving around the opponent, he doesn't go to the ropes.
3rd fight vs Ron Amundsen. Jones is a lot more confident and precise at long and medium distances. His defense shows significant improvements, he throws more-than-two-punches combinations a lot more often. One can see his famous left hook (when he leaps forward with it) already in this fight, as well as less famous straight overhand right (that he used quite often in middle and super-middle). He improved his usual "shuttle" movement (move forward with two-three punches and quickly retreat before the opponent can counter) as well. He shows real great jab. His reflexes and "reading" of oppoent moves are significantly improved. He has learned to improve the power of his punches (so they hurt more than in amateur or that 2nd pro-fight). When the opponent is hurt, he throws his usual multi-angle multi-punch combinations. He is better at counter-punching.
The next significant improvements he showed only after Hopkins fight, around the time he moved to super-middle (he no doubt was the best fighter in history of this weight), when he got more experience against better opposition. Some time ago on another forum I wrote several things I saw in several fights before Hopkins and in Hopkins fight, which I saw him improve prior to Toney fight already.
And let's not forget that Jones hurt his right hand (wrist) prior to Hopkins fight and it wasn't fully healed yet (if you pay close attention you'd notice that he used his right rather seldom, and when he does it's usually light punches to score points than to try to hurt the opponent; actually he talked about injured hand in an interview after Percy Harris fight, said something like his right hand got completely numb by 4th round already), which diminished his punching power rather significantly.

Now as for the Toney fight yes Jones dominated him,dominated a Toney who had to lose close to 40 pounds of excess weight to make the weight that is and who came in weight drained as a result

Toney had similar kind of problems as in Jones fight in several other fights at that point. Both Griffin fights (although questionable decisions, but Toney simply did too little in those fights also), Mateen fight (Toney looked like ugly fat pig with trunks up to the chest, his luck that the opponent couldn't stop throwing low fouls), 3rd McCallum fight (both fighters look real ugly fat), Thadzi fight (again, Toney looks like fat ugly pig). And these were in light heavy or cruiser. Unlike Jones, who despite having to lose a lot of muscles (not fat, as in Toney case) still looked much better than Toney in the above fights, and even won the champion rounds on pure will (despite being clearly dead-tired by then).

Jay Nady however never let Ruiz get inside or initiate any inside exchanges versus Roy when he did get close enough to possibly inflict some damage on him which obviously greatly benefited Jones.

Watch first several rounds again and see for yourself how Nady "never let Ruiz get inside or initiate any inside exchanges". Or, rather, see for yourself what really was there - where Jones clinched Ruiz so perfectly (while carrying his usual bored look on his face during such moments), that Johhny couldn't do anything other than use illegal blows to the back of the head (even those he couldn't do properly, as Jones managed to move his head away from such punches as well) or try to throw Jones to the canvas, or he leaned on top of Ruiz, holding him so that Johhny could only possibly hit below waist in such situations. And that happened not once, not twice, not even 10 times, but more than that. I might be mistaken about real frequency, but Ruiz tried to do that at least several times each of the first 3 or 4 rounds before finally giving up and changing tactics to trying to persuade Jones come in and catch him there by counter.

Jones fought the style he did because he never wanted to get hit,and the reason for that is because he knew going toe to toe would be his downfall because of his decent but far from spectacular chin.

How about several fights that very much reminded the last Johnson fight in that how the opponent tried to bully Jones, get him to the ropes and shoot him down there (in particular, Castro, Sosa, Tate, Brannon, Telesco, Gonzales, Ruiz) in several of which Jones actually did stand toe to toe and trade punches (showing old-school rolling with punches defense that is certainly not worse than that of, say, Archie Moore or Toney). In Telesco fight he showed a different defense though, reminding of, say, that of Whitaker, by standing close in front of opponent and firing perfectly precise blows while avoiding what the opponent throws at him. Quite often also his revanchist essence drove him forward to avenge for not too successful actions, where he got caught by solid counter-punches several times (although giving a lot more than receiving).

When Del Valle decked him with a average punch Roy was clearly hurt but to his luck faced an opponent with no killer instinct whatsoever who just let him off the hook and so he recovered to go on and win the fight.

Where exactly was Roy clearly hurt? The look on his face when he got up after what was the effect of a slip (on wet canvas, to the point referee paused the fight on several occasions and asked for a towel) rather than a punch, certainly wasn't a look you see on a hurt fighter. And unlike so many other fighters, he kept cool head in this situation and continued doing what he was doing prior to that.

Didnt say yourself that since Hops and Toney both lost to Jones that there was no need for a rematch as a result??So my comparison to the Ali/Frazier 1 fight is very valid,Joe beat the tar out of Ali in their fight,he was beaten up far worse then say Toney was against Jones yet he got a rematch.And i could name countless other fights were an opponent was outclassed or KOed by their foe in their first meeting only to come back and win in dominant fashion after having adjusted their gameplan accordingly for the rematch.And name me one person who wouldnt have tuned in if a Hopkins or Toney rematch were announced,surely you jest when you say these fights wouldnt have pulled in a significantly large audience.

The Toney rematch (in this I'll use the information that was posted by most knowledgable (about modern fighters that is - like 1970s to present) user I've ever met on another forum).
After Jones spanked Toney in 1994 Toney team started working on his return. Jackie Kalen wanted Toney to appear on several talk-shows and mention some "eating disorder" which was the reason for his loss. But James wanted to do business on his own by that point and told her goodbye. Arum prepared for his return unbeaten Montell Griffin, the fight was at light heavy (and Toney looked fat in that fight), but Toney lost a close decision, so the idea about rematch with Jones was postponed. After several wins over not very impressive opponents, Toney appeared in the undercard of DLH-Hernandez in a walkout fight vs Mateen. Ugly fat light heavy Toney. After that he appeared on ESPN, again far from good condition. And after couple more months he made his debut at heavyweight (!) on ESPN vs Mason (Jones was still supper middle by that point and only started to prepare for a move to light heavy). After his short stay at heavy, Toney desided to get his fat ass in form. After a couple of fights on ESPN Tuesday Night Fights he came to a rematch with Griffin on HBO. At that point Jones had won a title in 175 and was very interested in a fight with the winner of Griffin-Toney-II. He was so interested, that he participated in commenting on that fight live (via remote broadcast from his home in Florida), including the pre- and post-fight interviews.
So Toney has a chance to avenge to Montell, PLUS get a guaranteed rematch with Jones. Yet, he comes to 2nd fight still not in top form and loses another close decision.
Jones fights with Griffin, loses, avenges. Toney fights with McCallum, then loses to someone named Thadzi. So until Toney KO'ed Robinson and decisioned Jirov, there was absolutely no interest from fans to see Toney again (that is from 1995 to 2002). That is, he had not two, but rather three chances, the 3rd being when Jones lost to Griffin, but he blew all 3. Only after his win over Jirov did people start talking about possible rematch with Jones! And Toney blew the 4th chance again, by insisting that he received larger percent of the purse than Jones in case of the rematch.

tonyevs · Post by **tonyevs** » 27 Jan 2005, 09:15

But you say yourself Hopkins fight was boring to watch.
Ali and Frazier the fight was edge of seat stuff, and quite frankly I do not understand how you can say Frazier was the only one who gave out the punishment..why did he spend so long in hospital after the fight if he had everything his own way in the first encounter, it was a punishing, exciting fight for both participants, that’s why the public were so keen to see a re-match.

Maybe Hopkins is now a better fighter than then, but who has he beaten since to prove this?? heavy welters??

Toney just got fat, and don’t tell me he has shown the same potential in the heavier weight like he did at middle and super.

Hopkins was keen for a rematch with Jones mainly I think because there were no big fights out there to make the big money he wanted.
He talked also of moving up to fight Tarver, but when he had an offer to fight De La Hoya what does he do?? And that was at catch weight.

The weight issue with Toney is just an excuse, he had the same time as Jones, end of story.
All this what if is rubbish..what if he had thrown more punches, what if Jones missed more, what if you just admit he lost.
I cannot understand how you can offer this excuse realistically, he knew he was fighting Jones, he was given enough time just like Roy Jones.

I would not class myself as a die hard Jones fan, just an unbiased observer.

And wouldn’t the weight issue affect him the longer the fight wore on if you’re correct?
So how long did it take for Tarver to KO Jones, and in the first fight was Jones mid ring dancing for the first part or backed on the ropes?
Even in his last fight Johnson was on top of him from the beginning, which blows your theory apart again, the weight would have affected him in the later rounds
Jones is an old fighter, pure and simple, no critism there because he was at the top for
so long.

And whilst Ruiz is not a personal favourite of mine I think you are being very hard on him and overlooking certain things in a desperate attempt to trash him as you are to Roy Jones.
It is easy to pick faults, but it’s a little more difficult to prove it isn`t it

Lausse · Post by **Lausse** » 27 Jan 2005, 13:30

To Senya,you havent brought up anything i wasnt already aware of,although i admire your support for your favourite fighter in Jones.Concerning Toney the only point i was trying to make was that no one can say with a straight face that he was 100% in his fight versus Jones.Of course this was his fault and not Jones,but no one can deny the fact that he wasnt at his best that night,which to me takes away some of the lustre of Roys win over him.As for Hopkins he had improved significantly by the time the rematch was offered between himself and Jones,to say that a rematch would have been a carbon copy of their first meeting is very naive and simply untrue.As for Ruiz i am not putting him down to diminish Jones,not at all.Its just that in my personal opinion the man is a cancer to the sport and a disgrace of a title holder by constantly wrestling with his opponents rather then fighting them,so a win over a wrestler like this isnt impressive at all.Especially when one considers that he was hampered by the referee from fighting his usual grappling style.

And Senya,yes i am well aware of the few occasions when Roy did open up offensively,but whenever he did he did so on opponents who were to petrified and too intimated to figh back effectively.And Jones never,EVER actually went toe to toe with anybody in his entire career,he made the other guy fire first and he countered whatever came his way afterwards.Like i said in an earlier post,beating guys who do nothing but stand infront of you and who dont test you dont make you great,they showcase your ability and talent but it dont show greatness.Greatness comes when one great fighter defeats another great fighter on their best night,and Jones has never done this.

As for the Ruiz fight i have it on tape and it is Nady who is the one who always jumped in to break them up whenever Ruiz got close enough to want to hold Jones.He is always,always allowed to get away with this in each and everyone of his fights but wasnt allowed to do so in this fight because Nady wouldnt let him.And Jones was hurt when dropped by Del Valle as demonstrated by his actions after he got up,he did not tear into Del Vall but rather backed himself into the ropes and covered up to waether the storm.The punch took his legs out from under him,it was not a slip although i dont expect Jones fans to admit to this.

Lausse · Post by **Lausse** » 27 Jan 2005, 13:56

tonyevs wrote:
But you say yourself Hopkins fight was boring to watch.
Ali and Frazier the fight was edge of seat stuff, and quite frankly I do not understand how you can say Frazier was the only one who gave out the punishment..why did he spend so long in hospital after the fight if he had everything his own way in the first encounter, it was a punishing, exciting fight for both participants, that’s why the public were so keen to see a re-match.
Like i said,if you really insist i can come up with a list of fighters who came back to defeat their opponents after having been soundly defeated in their initial encounter.And it was punishing both ways yes,but during the fight to me it just looked like Frazier was beating the crap out of Ali for most of the fight,especially in the later rounds were he completely trashed him.Frazier collapsed not because of Alis punches,but because he gave everything he had that night and left a piece of himself in that ring and was never the same afterward.And you once again conveniently overlook the fact that since both Hopkins and Jones have a considerable fanbase this fight would not have been hard to sell at all,i cant help you if you choose to disregard this obvious fact.

Maybe Hopkins is now a better fighter than then, but who has he beaten since to prove this?? heavy welters??
Titowas never a natural welter,his best weight is around 154 to 160 were he fills in nicely.The Hoya fight on the other hand i give Hops no credit for,Oscar obviously chose to stay down rather then get back up so that win means nothing really.But Hopkins sure did defeat every man he has faced at 160 and done so in convincing fashion,more so then Jones i would say.

Toney just got fat, and don’t tell me he has shown the same potential in the heavier weight like he did at middle and super.
Well he certainly isnt no slouch either at heavy,its just that hes getting old and more prone to injurys nowadays.A 100% fit and focused Toney is a threat to any heavyweight out there with the exception of Vitaly.If little Byrd could do well for himself at heavy then Toney can as well,only time will tell just how good he really is at the weight.

Hopkins was keen for a rematch with Jones mainly I think because there were no big fights out there to make the big money he wanted.
He talked also of moving up to fight Tarver, but when he had an offer to fight De La Hoya what does he do?? And that was at catch weight.
He made close to 12 000 000$$ for the fight versus Hoya,no shit he took that fight instead of the Tarver one.The guys been looking for a well deserved payday for years,why the hell should he have fought Tarver first??Hes gonna face Eastman soon and who knows,maybe after that he might face Antonio.

The weight issue with Toney is just an excuse, he had the same time as Jones, end of story.
All this what if is rubbish..what if he had thrown more punches, what if Jones missed more, what if you just admit he lost.
I cannot understand how you can offer this excuse realistically, he knew he was fighting Jones, he was given enough time just like Roy Jones.
Whatsa matter with you??Were did i even say that Toney didnt lose,of course he lost and lost in embarrassing fashion no less.My only beef is with people who claim that Jones would have defeated Toney at his best which is not a foregone conclusion.Yes Jones did beat Toney,but he beat a Toney who was weight drained and who was not fighting to his best,to say otherwise is ridiculous.

I would not class myself as a die hard Jones fan, just an unbiased observer.
,sure buddy,whatever you say.

And wouldn’t the weight issue affect him the longer the fight wore on if you’re correct?
So how long did it take for Tarver to KO Jones, and in the first fight was Jones mid ring dancing for the first part or backed on the ropes?
If you didnt notice how obviously tired Jones was in the later rounds then i really cannot help you.His trainers and Jones himself said the weight loss affected him going into the Tarver fight,he himself admitted this and i believe him.It is harder on the human body to lose hard muslce mass then fat,especially at Roys age.And Jones was the one allowing himself to get backed up into the ropes to get a break whenever he got too tired to keep the fight at mid ring,this is plain obvious for all to see by watching the fight.I dont know what fight you were watching,but i guess we sure as hell werent watching the same thing then.

Even in his last fight Johnson was on top of him from the beginning, which blows your theory apart again, the weight would have affected him in the later rounds
Jones is an old fighter, pure and simple, no critism there because he was at the top for
so long.
What the hell are you talking about??By the time Jones squared off against Johnson he had alreay come down to the lightheavy limit for his rematch versus Tarver several months earlier.By the time he fought Glen he didnt have to lose 21 pounds of muscle mass,his body had already adjusted to 175 for the fight several months before.Jones might have been past his prime,but your ability to withstand a punch doesnt just suddenly leave you like that.Roy had a decent but far from spectacular chin,but he was so good at avoiding getting hit flush that it was a non factor for almost his entire career.

And whilst Ruiz is not a personal favourite of mine I think you are being very hard on him and overlooking certain things in a desperate attempt to trash him as you are to Roy Jones.
It is easy to pick faults, but it’s a little more difficult to prove it isn`t it

I addressed the Ruiz issue on my previous post.As for Jones i firmly believe that for all his athletic gifts and talents he wasnt a all time great fighter,not by a longshot.And i also always questioned just how good his chin really was and as it turns out it never was good to begin with,it just took such a long time to find out.And an all time great doesnt react the way Jones did in the Johnson fight,even if they were past their prime.We can argue back and forth about this for days on end,but to me Jones will never rank as highly as he does for many because i just never saw greatness coming from Jones.I saw great talent and ability yes,but i never saw a desire to be great or those other intangibles that make a great fighter truly great.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 27 Jan 2005, 16:21

tonyevs wrote:Jones did indeed fight some good opposition, look to his record.

And Jones could in my opinion have beaten any past champion in at least two of the divisions he held titles at.
And lets not forget he held titles at four different weights altogether.

I would rate him p4p ahead of many of the names you have put forward.

Well, tell me tonveys if you consider Jones better than these 30 mentioned???

tonyevs · Post by **tonyevs** » 27 Jan 2005, 16:22

I had my suspicions you were not serious in your opinions, it had crossed my mind you were having a laugh.
And with the comment about Tito and the pearler about Oscar De La Hoya choosing to stay down just confirms it.

Good one you had me, hook line and sinker.

tonyevs · Post by **tonyevs** » 27 Jan 2005, 16:28

elmersalsa wrote:
tonyevs wrote:Jones did indeed fight some good opposition, look to his record.

And Jones could in my opinion have beaten any past champion in at least two of the divisions he held titles at.
And lets not forget he held titles at four different weights altogether.

I would rate him p4p ahead of many of the names you have put forward.
Well, tell me tonveys if you consider Jones better than these 30 mentioned???

Read the 2nd post..the one after the first

I think that gives the answer

Senya13 · Post by **Senya13** » 28 Jan 2005, 01:21

I just thought it was needed to rebut the "Jones didn't give Toney rematch" thingy.
As well as I really wanted to hear what exactly could either Hopkins (his improved version) or closer-to-good-shape Toney oppose to more-or-less-close-to-prime-1994-2001 Jones. I see them losing more or less convincingly whatever tactics they chose for a rematch (I didn't say it'd be a carbon copy of the first fight, on the contrary, in my opinion a 1994-1999 version of Jones would defeat Hopkins more convincingly, and if Hopkins chose aggressive style, I wouldn't be surprised by his KDs as well, although I don't think Hopkins would choose aggressive style against that version of Jones, so there wouldn't be KDs; a later version of Jones - ie past-2001-Hopkins-Tito-fight but prior-to-heavyweight version would probably be another tactical closer-than-1993 decision for Jones).
The fight vs Ruiz, I again advise to watch the first several rounds again. Ruiz did have time to do something at close distance on many occasions before Nady interfered. The fact is Jones didn't allow him achieve any (even very short and local) success at that.
As for Jones never going toe-to-toe ever, I'd need some time to find examples when this happened (but it certainly DID happen in this infamous last fight).
If we go by quoted indispensable condition of greatness, I can compile a list of commonly recognized as great fighters for you who don't deserve to be called great then with this condition.
Jones - Del Valle - again, pay more attention to how Jones gets up and what's the look on his face and in his eyes, if he really looked hurt or he was just slightly surprised and angry at what happened. That punch (that was actually spent and caught him on his cheek when Jones was turning his head to the right the way he often does) certainly took nobody's legs under anyone, and the falling was caused by a slip as multi-angles slow-motion repeats showed between the rounds. And it's a fact that the canvas was very slippery by mid-rounds already, so that not only the referee asked for a towel to wipe it up on two occasions (if I remember correctly), but on many occasions Jones looked down trying to find a less slippery area after slight slips in several rounds before and after the KD.
And last thing. Jones did get caught many times by Johnson in the previous 8 rounds, including solid punches to the same temple/back-of-the-head area and was only slightly shaken on one single occasion (which was questionable, whether it was from the shot or he lost balance). He did get up (although clearly shaky still) after that monster left hook of Tarver, which tells a lot to me. He wasn't shaken by one or two solid punches he got caught with from Ruiz in early rounds and those were when Jones was walking into those punches when he turned his revanchist self. So, at least to me, the question of his chin stays unanswered still (as I remember very well the anatomy classes from school about what even not very hard blows to the temple can cause).

Lausse · Post by **Lausse** » 29 Jan 2005, 11:37

tonyevs wrote:I had my suspicions you were not serious in your opinions, it had crossed my mind you were having a laugh.
And with the comment about Tito and the pearler about Oscar De La Hoya choosing to stay down just confirms it.

Good one you had me, hook line and sinker.

Actually tony,i wasnt kidding at all,meant every word i said

.Trinidad fought at welter for many years but come fight night he always entered the ring in the mid 150 pound range,hence he clearly never was a natural welterweight.And now onto the Oscar/Hopkins fight,let me make it clear that i have no doubt that the blow that Nard hit Oscar with that put him down was legit and did hurt him.But to my dying day i will firmly believe that Oscar could have gotten up but chose to stay down rather then get beat up and mauled by the larger man Hopkins for the last remaining rounds.

Lefthookhappy19 · Post by **Lefthookhappy19** » 29 Jan 2005, 14:24

Del Valle knocked down Virgil Hill also so don't say he can't punch.

First thing. Did the fact that Toney was weight drained ever make that much of a difference anyway? Toneys problem has always been punch output and he regularly gets out worked while waiting for his counters. Against Jones he's fighting a man who's way quicker than him and just doesn't get hit himself. Jones style is just all wrong for Toney, at any weight and in any condition. Do we forget the ridiculus ease that Jones beat him. He was toying with Toney.

About the Ruiz fight and Clinching. Jones was 200lbs. He's fighting a man with much more bodymass. Jones fights like no other heavyweight. Heavyweights in general clinch a lot more than others. It takes two to tango and one was willing and the other wasn't. Of course Ruiz wasn't allowed to lean all over Jones. Too big a size and strength difference and Jones would probably gone down with all that weight on him. Its way more noticable than in a normal heavyweight fight so it was broke up. Its a non issue really. Its illegal.

Roys power is not in doubt. Thomas Tate has a 12 round war with Julian Jackson then gets blown out by Jones. Virgil Hill one punched. No more proof needed.

His chin is another non-issue. If it doesn't get tested then who gives a fornicate. Also, you don't go as long as Roy went without getting hurt if you have no chin.

So then who do the haters think Roy should have fought. Name names. Daruisz? Come on, who else? Jones TKO8 Michalzweski by the way on cuts. I'd have bet the house on this. Roys top 30 P4P all time, maybe higher with better guys around to fight.

His problem nowadays is his reflexes are gones. He broke so many rules now that his reflexes are gone he can't get away with it anymore. It doesn't lower his ranking all time. He's just old, it happens to everyone.

Lausse · Post by **Lausse** » 29 Jan 2005, 15:11

Lefthookhappy19 wrote:
Del Valle knocked down Virgil Hill also so don't say he can't punch.
So what??Hill wasnt hurt from the blow and got back up and down to business.When Roy got back up from the Del Valle punch he retreated into the ropes amd covered up to weather the storm,had he tried to do that with a fighter with a better punch and killer instinct he would have likely been stopped.

First thing. Did the fact that Toney was weight drained ever make that much of a difference anyway? Toneys problem has always been punch output and he regularly gets out worked while waiting for his counters. Against Jones he's fighting a man who's way quicker than him and just doesn't get hit himself. Jones style is just all wrong for Toney, at any weight and in any condition. Do we forget the ridiculus ease that Jones beat him. He was toying with Toney.
My point by bringing up the Toney fight is that so many Jones fanboys say that Jones would have beaten him any day of the week because of how he performed versus a weight drained Toney.Now if James came in 100% fit and ready even then there is no guarantee he would win,but no one can expect me to believe that he wouldnt have given a much better account of himself and maybe won.Anyone remember the Nunn fight??Toney was losing and behind on points but came back to win in spectacular fashion,whos to say he couldnt have done it to Roy in a rematch??Just something to consider.

About the Ruiz fight and Clinching. Jones was 200lbs. He's fighting a man with much more bodymass. Jones fights like no other heavyweight. Heavyweights in general clinch a lot more than others. It takes two to tango and one was willing and the other wasn't. Of course Ruiz wasn't allowed to lean all over Jones. Too big a size and strength difference and Jones would probably gone down with all that weight on him. Its way more noticable than in a normal heavyweight fight so it was broke up. Its a non issue really. Its illegal.
But why isnt it illegal in every other of Johnny boys wrestling matches??Unless there was a clause in the contract that explicitely prevented Ruiz from trying to use his grappling tactics on him then why would Nady keep jumping in the way he did every single time Ruiz got close enough to wanna do some inside fighting??Answer is because Nady is notorious for not allowing fighters to fight their way out of a clinch or to do too much infighting if any at all.Jones and HBO knew this which is why i believe they did whatever they could to get him as the ref,but thats another story altogether.

Roys power is not in doubt. Thomas Tate has a 12 round war with Julian Jackson then gets blown out by Jones. Virgil Hill one punched. No more proof needed.
Tate was never the same after his 12 round war versus Jackson,that much was obvious from watching his fights after that fight.The hill bodyshot was a great punch and all credit to Jones for landing it,it was brutal.And for the record i think Jackson would have stopped Jones back in the day when this fight could have happened,the fight would have been a carbon copy of his KO2 win over Terry Norris except that i think Jones would have lasted a little longer.

His chin is another non-issue. If it doesn't get tested then who gives a fornicate. Also, you don't go as long as Roy went without getting hurt if you have no chin.
From what i saw in the Del Valle KD he was clearly hurt by a decent shot.That little smile he let go after getting up was a clear indication of a man whos dazed and stunned,you dont smile like that and back yourself into a corner to try and cover up from your opponents follow up assault if your not hurt from the blow that put you down.

So then who do the haters think Roy should have fought. Name names. Daruisz? Come on, who else? Jones TKO8 Michalzweski by the way on cuts. I'd have bet the house on this. Roys top 30 P4P all time, maybe higher with better guys around to fight.
If Richard Hall could unload his best and hardest punches smack on DMs chin for 21 rounds then what makes you think for a moment Jones could have stopped him,even on cuts??DM was no fancy dan,but the guy had a proven chin and very good power with pretty good boxing skills.And had Jones fought in a more competitive era then he wouldnt have looked so invincible,but since he fought in such a piss poor era he will always be rated higher by many then he deserves.

His problem nowadays is his reflexes are gones. He broke so many rules now that his reflexes are gone he can't get away with it anymore. It doesn't lower his ranking all time. He's just old, it happens to everyone.

Yes hes old that is true,but its no excuse for just freezing the way he did in the Glen Johnson fight.An all time great doesnt go out without a fight even when past their prime,to me in that fight Jones showed that without his talents and physical ability he never had the true grit and determination of a true all time great fighter to pull out a win from the jaws of defeat,or at the very least go out on ones shield with honour.

Lefthookhappy19 · Post by **Lefthookhappy19** » 29 Jan 2005, 20:52

The Raging B(_)LL wrote:
Lefthookhappy19 wrote:
Del Valle knocked down Virgil Hill also so don't say he can't punch.
So what??Hill wasnt hurt from the blow and got back up and down to business.When Roy got back up from the Del Valle punch he retreated into the ropes amd covered up to weather the storm,had he tried to do that with a fighter with a better punch and killer instinct he would have likely been stopped.

First thing. Did the fact that Toney was weight drained ever make that much of a difference anyway? Toneys problem has always been punch output and he regularly gets out worked while waiting for his counters. Against Jones he's fighting a man who's way quicker than him and just doesn't get hit himself. Jones style is just all wrong for Toney, at any weight and in any condition. Do we forget the ridiculus ease that Jones beat him. He was toying with Toney.
My point by bringing up the Toney fight is that so many Jones fanboys say that Jones would have beaten him any day of the week because of how he performed versus a weight drained Toney.Now if James came in 100% fit and ready even then there is no guarantee he would win,but no one can expect me to believe that he wouldnt have given a much better account of himself and maybe won.Anyone remember the Nunn fight??Toney was losing and behind on points but came back to win in spectacular fashion,whos to say he couldnt have done it to Roy in a rematch??Just something to consider.

About the Ruiz fight and Clinching. Jones was 200lbs. He's fighting a man with much more bodymass. Jones fights like no other heavyweight. Heavyweights in general clinch a lot more than others. It takes two to tango and one was willing and the other wasn't. Of course Ruiz wasn't allowed to lean all over Jones. Too big a size and strength difference and Jones would probably gone down with all that weight on him. Its way more noticable than in a normal heavyweight fight so it was broke up. Its a non issue really. Its illegal.
But why isnt it illegal in every other of Johnny boys wrestling matches??Unless there was a clause in the contract that explicitely prevented Ruiz from trying to use his grappling tactics on him then why would Nady keep jumping in the way he did every single time Ruiz got close enough to wanna do some inside fighting??Answer is because Nady is notorious for not allowing fighters to fight their way out of a clinch or to do too much infighting if any at all.Jones and HBO knew this which is why i believe they did whatever they could to get him as the ref,but thats another story altogether.

Roys power is not in doubt. Thomas Tate has a 12 round war with Julian Jackson then gets blown out by Jones. Virgil Hill one punched. No more proof needed.
Tate was never the same after his 12 round war versus Jackson,that much was obvious from watching his fights after that fight.The hill bodyshot was a great punch and all credit to Jones for landing it,it was brutal.And for the record i think Jackson would have stopped Jones back in the day when this fight could have happened,the fight would have been a carbon copy of his KO2 win over Terry Norris except that i think Jones would have lasted a little longer.

His chin is another non-issue. If it doesn't get tested then who gives a fornicate. Also, you don't go as long as Roy went without getting hurt if you have no chin.
From what i saw in the Del Valle KD he was clearly hurt by a decent shot.That little smile he let go after getting up was a clear indication of a man whos dazed and stunned,you dont smile like that and back yourself into a corner to try and cover up from your opponents follow up assault if your not hurt from the blow that put you down.

So then who do the haters think Roy should have fought. Name names. Daruisz? Come on, who else? Jones TKO8 Michalzweski by the way on cuts. I'd have bet the house on this. Roys top 30 P4P all time, maybe higher with better guys around to fight.
If Richard Hall could unload his best and hardest punches smack on DMs chin for 21 rounds then what makes you think for a moment Jones could have stopped him,even on cuts??DM was no fancy dan,but the guy had a proven chin and very good power with pretty good boxing skills.And had Jones fought in a more competitive era then he wouldnt have looked so invincible,but since he fought in such a piss poor era he will always be rated higher by many then he deserves.

His problem nowadays is his reflexes are gones. He broke so many rules now that his reflexes are gone he can't get away with it anymore. It doesn't lower his ranking all time. He's just old, it happens to everyone.
Yes hes old that is true,but its no excuse for just freezing the way he did in the Glen Johnson fight.An all time great doesnt go out without a fight even when past their prime,to me in that fight Jones showed that without his talents and physical ability he never had the true grit and determination of a true all time great fighter to pull out a win from the jaws of defeat,or at the very least go out on ones shield with honour.

Its proves Del Valle can punch. You just dismissed him earlier. Also note that Del Valle had sparred with Jones a bit and may have known him better than most.

Anything can happen in boxing. You could say the same about any fight anywhere. Toney was pretty lucky against Nunn. Nunn got careless and wanted to prove a point because of Toneys trashtalk.

Ruiz hardly even tried to clinch nearly as much as usual. He got stung and didn't really want to risk getting drilled again. Again, Ruiz has many willing opponents in the heavyweight division when it comes to clinching. Roy wasn't at all willing. It was broke up a lot because a 240lb man leaning on a 200lb one looks out of place and far more noticable than usual. Its illegal anyway so it just doesn't matter. So iyo Roy wanted a ref that would enforce the rules of boxing? O no that shouldn't be allowed

Roys power is just not in doubt. Maybe at lightheavy but not below. Not at all. He has multiple one punch KO's and threw those hands like rocks. Ever seen the Serwano KO? I like Julian Jackson very much but Roys in a different class in every way but power. Roy just didn't get hit all that often and Julian could be quite crude. I'd fancy Roy to get him out of their in the early to mid rounds.

I interpret the Del Valle knockdown different. It look part punch part slip to me. Like Roy saw it at the last second and slipped getting out of the way and caught a bit of it as well. The logo's on the ring are known to be slippy. The look on his face was like "Yeah, you got me" His eyes where TOTALLY clear and he gave the punch some respect and casually held on for a while. It was a new experience for him and it may have given Del Valle a big boost so he played it safe. If he was groggy then maybe questions but he was totally clear headed. Focusing on 1 knockdown in the mans prime is clutching at straws. Who else gets judged by these kind of standards?

Roy just all wrong for Dariusz. They are at different ends of the scale in terms of speed of everything. You saw the way Roy dealt with Hall in comparison. Roy played with him. Dariusz would be getting peppered. Not really a slight on Dariusz, its just the way it is.

On the last point. What about Tarver 1? That was guts against a very determined hungry opponent. Roy had all time great talent and ability, just not the opposition to prove it. Does Roy get penalized for dominating guys and not needing to dig deep like some lesser fighters? He dominated guys from bell to bell on most occasions. Easily top 30 all time p4p. Give the man his due.

Senya13 · Post by **Senya13** » 01 Feb 2005, 00:53

The Raging B(_)LL wrote:When Roy got back up from the Del Valle punch he retreated into the ropes amd covered up to weather the storm,had he tried to do that with a fighter with a better punch and killer instinct he would have likely been stopped.

Did Del Valle manage to get any additional solid punch at all? The point is Jones has been retreating to the ropes many-many times in his career, including vs fighters with better punch and with killer instinct, but none of them (including Tarver-1 and Johnson) could really get him there. Think nobody tried hard enough? He often did that vs fighters that tried to bully him or when on the contrary the opponent was too unwilling to show any activity. The Del Valle fight was no different. Del Valle mistakenly thought he got Jones real good and jumped all over him. Jones thought no problem, and played his usual self, covering up on the ropes instead of running away or trying to avenge it here and now.

Anyone remember the Nunn fight??Toney was losing and behind on points but came back to win in spectacular fashion,whos to say he couldnt have done it to Roy in a rematch??Just something to consider.

There is very little if any similarity between Nunn's and Jones' styles. Just something to consider ;)

why would Nady keep jumping in the way he did every single time Ruiz got close enough to wanna do some inside fighting??

Sigh. I'm tired of repeating it over and over again, that the way Jones tied up Ruiz every time they clinched, didn't leave Ruiz any chance than to use illegal rabbit punches or throws or head-butts. Many times Ruiz had at least several seconds in clinch to do something before Nady stepped in, and he couldn't do anything in that time. Not a single fighter in 52(!) fights managed to do anything useful in clinches vs Jones. Again, think nobody even tried?

And for the record i think Jackson would have stopped Jones back in the day when this fight could have happened,the fight would have been a carbon copy of his KO2 win over Terry Norris except that i think Jones would have lasted a little longer.

Speed kills! Add to that phenomenal precision/accuracy/timing and you shall know the main reason for Jones' high KO percentage. Jackson would'n't have lasted more than 2-3 rounds vs highly motivated 1993-1996 Jones (that is if Jackson didn't lose to McClellan already). Not to forget also that Jones is a natural super middleweight.

That little smile he let go after getting up was a clear indication of a man whos dazed and stunned,you dont smile like that and back yourself into a corner to try and cover up from your opponents follow up assault if your not hurt from the blow that put you down.

Just watch more fights of Jones. He was hurt tens of times in many fights then if we follow that logic, so often did he retreat to the ropes while smiling. In that particular moment I consider his smile to be a sign of slight vexation at what happened, nothing more. His eyes are absolutely clear, his actions until the end of the round show nothing new that he didn't do many times before and after that, certainly no panic or anything that would serve as a sign of being hurt.

DM was no fancy dan,but the guy had a proven chin and very good power with pretty good boxing skills.

How about defense? :) Did he even know what that word means?

Yes hes old that is true,but its no excuse for just freezing the way he did in the Glen Johnson fight. An all time great doesnt go out without a fight even when past their prime, to me in that fight Jones showed that without his talents and physical ability he never had the true grit and determination of a true all time great fighter to pull out a win from the jaws of defeat, or at the very least go out on ones shield with honour.

Again, I can dig up many examples when commonly accepted as great fighters were no better than Jones, at the end of their long careers. In this particular fight Jones "woke up" on several occasions, making Johnson look like a schoolboy who doesn't know how to defend himself. Or how to use that bully style vs a fighter who can and is ready to hurt you back. I remember at least two times when Jones retreated to the ropes (even to the corner, on far right from the camera), but showed with his stance or something that he was going to defend himself and fight, and Johnson froze at these times too, not wanting to go forward and get under fire.