ONE HD jump on the MMA bandwagon

[Hounddawg]

Kickboxing is fun, challenging(on a different plane to boxing), and used to be (in the early nineties at least) so much more money involved on a domestic level. In Australia's heyday of kickboxing (90-96) we had a lot of kickboxers, who, with their superior core body strength, made great inroads to pro and am. boxing. Ronie Doo, Alex Tui, Jason De Lisle, Dale westerman, Tasis Petridis, Adam Watt, Leo young jnr.The Briggs twins etc. To name but a few that come to mind from that era alone.

although I have to agree with you about the legs as I can only just walk without a limp in summer!

a bit of the old "kickbox to the the head Mate". Obviously you've done a bit of Kickboxing, Pro or AM?

A couple of guys i know can't walk for days after they fight, not bad with the gloves either which as i
said earlier.....why do it to yourself when you've got ability to box....ie Ben Edwards.

[dberry]

Kickboxing is fun, challenging(on a different plane to boxing), and used to be (in the early nineties at least) so much more money involved on a domestic level. In Australia's heyday of kickboxing (90-96) we had a lot of kickboxers, who, with their superior core body strength, made great inroads to pro and am. boxing. Ronie Doo, Alex Tui, Jason De Lisle, Dale westerman, Tasis Petridis, Adam Watt, Leo young jnr.The Briggs twins etc. To name but a few that come to mind from that era alone.

although I have to agree with you about the legs as I can only just walk without a limp in summer!

a bit of the old "kickbox to the the head Mate". Obviously you've done a bit of Kickboxing, Pro or AM?

A couple of guys i know can't walk for days after they fight, not bad with the gloves either which as i
said earlier.....why do it to yourself when you've got ability to box....ie Ben Edwards.

FUN. Kickboxing is chequers and boxing chess! Muay Thai and kickboxing are definetely more physical than boxing and boxing is most certainly more mentaly demanding, however, at least when I was invovled, on a national level, there was a shit load more money involved in kickboxing, not to mention better looking sheilas.

[Hounddawg]

Kickboxing is fun, challenging(on a different plane to boxing), and used to be (in the early nineties at least) so much more money involved on a domestic level. In Australia's heyday of kickboxing (90-96) we had a lot of kickboxers, who, with their superior core body strength, made great inroads to pro and am. boxing. Ronie Doo, Alex Tui, Jason De Lisle, Dale westerman, Tasis Petridis, Adam Watt, Leo young jnr.The Briggs twins etc. To name but a few that come to mind from that era alone.

although I have to agree with you about the legs as I can only just walk without a limp in summer!

a bit of the old "kickbox to the the head Mate". Obviously you've done a bit of Kickboxing, Pro or AM?

A couple of guys i know can't walk for days after they fight, not bad with the gloves either which as i
said earlier.....why do it to yourself when you've got ability to box....ie Ben Edwards.

FUN. Kickboxing is chequers and boxing chess! Muay Thai and kickboxing are definetely more physical than boxing and boxing is most certainly more mentaly demanding, however, at least when I was invovled, on a national level, there was a poop load more money involved in kickboxing, not to mention better looking sheilas.

I was at chandler in Brisbane watching evolution 13 or something and we had a table, i must say the go go girls beside and behind us kept me happy all night.

I remember Stan the man from the 90s pretty good from memory, how did he end up?

Do agree about the checkers/chess analogy. Kick boxing is full bodied, and shins weren't meant to be kicked, i remember having a few drinks with a kickboxer and getting locked into a debate about Boxing/Kickboxing he thought more talent resided with KickBoxing and of course i disagreed, then he said more physically demanding was Kick boxing....again i disagreed, he then suggested we stand up and do one of his training exercises that involved us exchanging shin kicks repeatably to which after about 5 or 6 light connects to the shin i crumbled and said f#ck that, pass me another beer!

Of course i told him i seen a couple of opportunity's to smack him on the side of the head while he tried to kick my leg
Boxing is more Endurance,Skill and Technique.

[caveman]

comparing boxing to kickboxing is like comparing league to union. have trained a couple of converts to boxing & there stance is completly different. similar but different,as i said earlier each to there own

[keyboard warrior]

A problem with comparing 'kickboxing' with boxing is when people include Thai boxing under the umbrella of kickboxing. Kickboxing is an awkward hybrid of boxing and karate, which I find very ugly to watch because practitioners rarely develop a good sense of range as to when to employ the different techniques. Thai boxing on the other hand is a millenia old tradition in its own right and is beautiful to watch. Although I wont defend the standard of the sport outside of its home country, I challenge any one to watch a fight between two high ranked Thai boxers in Thailand and then say there is less skill, endurance or technique in Thai boxing than boxing. That is insane. John Wayne Parr is prob the best known Thai boxer outside of Thailand, and he gave both Bika and Hamdan very good fights in Queensbury rules. However, when JWP fought 20 year old Yodsaenklai for a Muay Thai world title he struggled to land one clean punch on the young Thai. Yod's skills in footwork, timing and slipping were and are of the absolutely highest calibre, as good or better than anything I've seen in a boxing ring.

I think that the rise in combat sports is a good thing for boxing as I see a lot of guys getting into MMA and Thai boxing and then developing a taste for boxing as well and starting to watch the PPVs, etc. Ideally a bit of competition will also be good for boxing so that our fighters may have to actually fight each other one day! One thing MMA and Thai boxing fans don't have to put up with is 'warm up' fights and padded records. In those sports they barely even use the terms bum or journeyman. They get real fighters and real champs.

[Hounddawg]

A problem with comparing 'kickboxing' with boxing is when people include Thai boxing under the umbrella of kickboxing. Kickboxing is an awkward hybrid of boxing and karate, which I find very ugly to watch because practitioners rarely develop a good sense of range as to when to employ the different techniques. Thai boxing on the other hand is a millenia old tradition in its own right and is beautiful to watch. Although I wont defend the standard of the sport outside of its home country, I challenge any one to watch a fight between two high ranked Thai boxers in Thailand and then say there is less skill, endurance or technique in Thai boxing than boxing. That is insane. John Wayne Parr is prob the best known Thai boxer outside of Thailand, and he gave both Bika and Hamdan very good fights in Queensbury rules. However, when JWP fought 20 year old Yodsaenklai for a Muay Thai world title he struggled to land one clean punch on the young Thai. Yod's skills in footwork, timing and slipping were and are of the absolutely highest calibre, as good or better than anything I've seen in a boxing ring.

I think that the rise in combat sports is a good thing for boxing as I see a lot of guys getting into MMA and Thai boxing and then developing a taste for boxing as well and starting to watch the PPVs, etc. Ideally a bit of competition will also be good for boxing so that our fighters may have to actually fight each other one day! One thing MMA and Thai boxing fans don't have to put up with is 'warm up' fights and padded records. In those sports they barely even use the terms bum or journeyman. They get real fighters and real champs.

PS Boxing gets real champs mate, it's just those who know the sport know who they are, and you don't need a belt to say your the best!


Umm I've been a couple of times to Phuket and Bangkok and sat ringside, I also enjoyed the 8year old kids beating up on each other.....I paid a bit of cash in a world title fight to stick lays around there necks and pose for a couple of photographs....does this qualify me now???? by the way, the Thai got knocked out cold, while i was waiting for my photo's to be turned into posters he was still asleep...the guy that beat him was from Iran They also dont score points for Boxing in Thailand, it's elbows and knees, which would explain why most converts get caught a lot because they dont understand range.


JWP never landed 1 clean punch on Yodsankai WTF, he landed at will mate, just walked into a few himself and got dropped quite a bit.
As graceful/Good as you've ever seen in boxing, mate your kidding aren't you, you must be Kidding, this is the funniest shitt I've heard in a while. And you need to see more higher quality boxing matches.
And you should know that a 20 year old Thai is the equivalent to a man in his thirties and been pro for 12 years, Kids start at 5 or 6 there.

WTF i've been to a few fights for Thai Boxing where a guy with 110 fights fought a guy with 8 fights and the guy with 8 fights had only won 5 of them....is that what you call even matchups???? To compare MMA standards to boxing is ridiculous, they are lucky to have 25 ranked opponents in each division, as opposed to over a 1000 in boxing, of course the matchups are going to be solid(not great) theres no one else to fight. The problem with MMA is they don't have the money atm to lure a god giving talent like Pac and co to join there code, therefore the best of the natural talent pool around the world dont compete in MMA, while a lot of even matches go on, you might only be witnessing to average fighters going toe to toe....MMA and especially Thai Boxing get the scraps., those who couldn't develop a good enough jab, hook or lateral movement. I can't believe you think that MMA and Thai boxing competes endurance wise with boxing WTF, one go's for 3 rounds albeit 5 minutes and allows you to lay on the ground holding your opponent for almost the entire round, most generally gas after about 2 minutes then the rolling around and balls in the face start to occur, and Thai boxing go's for 5 rounds x 3minutes and again very rarely to you see an all action affair, mostly it's just shin kick fest. Boxing requires 12 rounds and 36 minutes of concentration, you get penalized for too many breaks and can lose a fight for failing to engage, so the winner hands down for endurance and mental toughness is boxing, no competition.

[Soundkamp]

this is what Mundine should be doing with his fight cards!!!!!!

[keyboard warrior]

JWP went 12 rounds with Bika and Hamdan and says albeit les rounds Thai boxing is more demanding endurance wise because of the grappling and kicking. I've both Thai boxed professionally and boxed as an amateur as well as drilled a little bit with MMA fighters when my friend was preparing to fight Juarne Dowling in MMA (My friend BTW, beat Dowling comfortably in only his second fight). The wrestling makes you extremely lactic and tired. Have you tried all three before giving your opinion?

I personally don't watch MMA, I think the wrestling is boring to watch and the stand up sloppy, I'm not here to defend it, but I do see its popularity growing. Their athletes train hard. I do hope that it makes boxing more honest, but that's only a hope as I have no real way of predicting.

And yes there are very dodgy shows in Thailand in the bars and what not. I wouldn't bother watching fights in Phuket for instance. Here's a tip: if it's a World Title its probably a gimmick. But the Bangkok stadiums are quality fights. There's not one foriegn World Titlist who can mix it with the ranked fighters at the Bangkok stadiums (apart from Dekker and Parr) - the stadium champs are the real champions I was referring to. As for Parr landing at will on Yod - you should ask Wayne about that...

I've seen plenty of good quality boxing but it dosn't sound like you've seen very much good quality Thai boxing to make sound comparisons.

[keyboard warrior]

They also dont score points for Boxing in Thailand, it's elbows and knees, which would explain why most converts get caught a lot because they dont understand range.

Somrak, a really good Thai boxer took up amateur boxing and won Thailand's first gold meddle in 1996. Samart is a Thai boxing great as well as a boxing legend. Ever heard of Paul Briggs, etc? To say most converts 'get caught' is a silly, blanket statement. Some make the transition, some don't. Like Union and League.

[Hounddawg]

JWP went 12 rounds with Bika and Hamdan and says albeit les rounds Thai boxing is more demanding endurance wise because of the grappling and kicking. I've both Thai boxed professionally and boxed as an amateur as well as drilled a little bit with MMA fighters when my friend was preparing to fight Juarne Dowling in MMA (My friend BTW, beat Dowling comfortably in only his second fight). The wrestling makes you extremely lactic and tired. Have you tried all three before giving your opinion?

I personally don't watch MMA, I think the wrestling is boring to watch and the stand up sloppy, I'm not here to defend it, but I do see its popularity growing. Their athletes train hard. I do hope that it makes boxing more honest, but that's only a hope as I have no real way of predicting.

And yes there are very dodgy shows in Thailand in the bars and what not. I wouldn't bother watching fights in Phuket for instance. Here's a tip: if it's a World Title its probably a gimmick. But the Bangkok stadiums are quality fights. There's not one foriegn World Titlist who can mix it with the ranked fighters at the Bangkok stadiums (apart from Dekker and Parr) - the stadium champs are the real champions I was referring to. As for Parr landing at will on Yod - you should ask Wayne about that...

I've seen plenty of good quality boxing but it dosn't sound like you've seen very much good quality Thai boxing to make sound comparisons.

I don't want to start talking smack about people i respect to make a point, but John wayne parr is far too small as a Middleweight in Boxing, i've had a few photos with him, and i make him look very small. Yodsankai is a great Thai fighter, the type of fighter that brings the casual fan in, I've been privileged to see him fight quite a few times and seen him in the ring with Parr Twice, both occasions with my own eyes i saw Parr land flush quite easily on Yodsankai only to be hit very few times back but with good shots that dropped Parr, both fights were Parrs for the taking, he just needed to pull back a bit after good scoring shots and eek out a decision, my point being is to suggest that Yodsankai has the talent of elite boxers is ludicrous, he would probably be a top 20 at best, and has found his true calling in thai fighting.

I've only Boxed, my youth was spent fighting a lot of Golden glove boxers while playing at the time my first passion rugby league, Boxing was second to me growing up, so never perused it as a professional, although it has made me itch in the last few years seeing people like Tarver,hopkins and Bob Mirovic continue into the 40s.And no i haven't done all 3 codes, but neither have you, so why the suggestion that i shouldn't comment unless i've competed in that sport? Boxers/Kickboxers and the like shouldn't be so defensive, especially those who don't compete anymore, it's a forum, if you don't want to talk to all walks of life, you and the other handful of people who had a few pro fights can create your own forum and call it Disgruntled fighters who don't accept anyones opinion unless they've competed in that field.....it should be packed.

Look i don't need to compete in a sport to know the difference between talent and no talent, believe it or not that have this job called a talent scout, he or she may never have competed but can identify talent.

Peace

[Hounddawg]

They also dont score points for Boxing in Thailand, it's elbows and knees, which would explain why most converts get caught a lot because they dont understand range.

Somrak, a really good Thai boxer took up amateur boxing and won Thailand's first gold meddle in 1996. Samart is a Thai boxing great as well as a boxing legend. Ever heard of Paul Briggs, etc? To say most converts 'get caught' is a silly, blanket statement. Some make the transition, some don't. Like Union and League.

Thats great for Somrak, and you just taught me something so thankyou.

Yes i may of heard of this bloke you refer to as Paul briggs, and from memory he did get hit a lot, he just found that he needed to hit the other guy more and harder, great fighter.
But i still sit on my laurels that Thai fighters don't adjust as well to boxing, if you can prove me wrong, please do so, but for every guy you show me that has been successful I'll show you 5 or 6 that haven't, so it's not a blanket statement.

Rugby league and union all though appear similar they are completely different games......completely, 1 relies on flair,running and defence, while the other relies on kicking the ball everytime you get the ball, and giving penaltys away everytime the opposition gets in your 25,you can win a game kicking goals...Like soccer and AFL.
Here's another blanket statement, Rugby players can't play Rugby league and all but maybe a handful of players(michael O'conner and Steve Ella) has played rep in league once coming from union, and some of the good, but less profile players in rugby league have made a very successful transition into international Rugby, now these players couldn't make the Kangaroos squad.......My point is it's not unfair to assess the two codes, because they can be broken down, and besides the fact that over the last couple of years they've had a competition to see who is the better athlete, and it's been rugby league.

[Brute]

They also dont score points for Boxing in Thailand, it's elbows and knees, which would explain why most converts get caught a lot because they dont understand range.

Somrak, a really good Thai boxer took up amateur boxing and won Thailand's first gold meddle in 1996. Samart is a Thai boxing great as well as a boxing legend. Ever heard of Paul Briggs, etc? To say most converts 'get caught' is a silly, blanket statement. Some make the transition, some don't. Like Union and League.

Thats great for Somrak, and you just taught me something so thankyou.

Yes i may of heard of this bloke you refer to as Paul briggs, and from memory he did get hit a lot, he just found that he needed to hit the other guy more and harder, great fighter.
But i still sit on my laurels that Thai fighters don't adjust as well to boxing, if you can prove me wrong, please do so, but for every guy you show me that has been successful I'll show you 5 or 6 that haven't, so it's not a blanket statement.

Rugby league and union all though appear similar they are completely different games......completely, 1 relies on flair,running and defence, while the other relies on kicking the ball everytime you get the ball, and giving penaltys away everytime the opposition gets in your 25,you can win a game kicking goals...Like soccer and AFL.
Here's another blanket statement, Rugby players can't play Rugby league and all but maybe a handful of players(michael O'conner and Steve Ella) has played rep in league once coming from union, and some of the good, but less profile players in rugby league have made a very successful transition into international Rugby, now these players couldn't make the Kangaroos squad.......My point is it's not unfair to assess the two codes, because they can be broken down, and besides the fact that over the last couple of years they've had a competition to see who is the better athlete, and it's been rugby league.

Ken Kearney, Kevin Ryan, Ken and Dick Thornett, Jimmy Lisle, Ray Price, John Brass, Wally Lewis, all started in Rugby Union.

[Hounddawg]

Somrak, a really good Thai boxer took up amateur boxing and won Thailand's first gold meddle in 1996. Samart is a Thai boxing great as well as a boxing legend. Ever heard of Paul Briggs, etc? To say most converts 'get caught' is a silly, blanket statement. Some make the transition, some don't. Like Union and League.

Thats great for Somrak, and you just taught me something so thankyou.

Yes i may of heard of this bloke you refer to as Paul briggs, and from memory he did get hit a lot, he just found that he needed to hit the other guy more and harder, great fighter.
But i still sit on my laurels that Thai fighters don't adjust as well to boxing, if you can prove me wrong, please do so, but for every guy you show me that has been successful I'll show you 5 or 6 that haven't, so it's not a blanket statement.

Rugby league and union all though appear similar they are completely different games......completely, 1 relies on flair,running and defence, while the other relies on kicking the ball everytime you get the ball, and giving penaltys away everytime the opposition gets in your 25,you can win a game kicking goals...Like soccer and AFL.
Here's another blanket statement, Rugby players can't play Rugby league and all but maybe a handful of players(michael O'conner and Steve Ella) has played rep in league once coming from union, and some of the good, but less profile players in rugby league have made a very successful transition into international Rugby, now these players couldn't make the Kangaroos squad.......My point is it's not unfair to assess the two codes, because they can be broken down, and besides the fact that over the last couple of years they've had a competition to see who is the better athlete, and it's been rugby league.

Ken Kearney, Kevin Ryan, Ken and Dick Thornett, Jimmy Lisle, Ray Price, John Brass, Wally Lewis, all started in Rugby Union.

Mate only you have these facts at your disposal, however the two underlined played u/19s for the wallabies, never for the Wallabies and of course played league while playing union, so they don't count. I honestly don't know any of the other players mentioned but one you and i forgot was Dally Messinger.

[keyboard warrior]

Your opinion is as good as anyone's and I only brought up my experience in the context of the endurance aspects of training and competing in the sports. Believe me when I say MMA fighters are superbly conditioned athletes. Smart boxers and trainers will start to adopt strength & conditioning programs that have previously been the domain of wrestlers.

Agreed, I don't think Yod would be top 10 in boxing either. Like any Thai boxer without a serious retraining regime he would be far too limited (he is also a very limited Thai boxer actually - just super good at that particular subset of skills). But the few things he does he does very well. He has an amazing sense of timing and distance, as good as any boxer IMO.

(Those fights were definitely not there for Wayne to take, the first fight especially he was shut out bad. He didn't hit Yod clean until maybe the fourth round and then only a few times without really hurting him. The second fight my memory is vague but I remember the ring being a soft and soggy canvas that slows footwork down as well as being really wet. Thus Yod wasn't kicking as much and mixed more with hands and so prob got tagged more then. End of the day blown up welter Yod has knocked JWP down a few times in 10 rounds whereas Bika and Hamdan combined couldn't rattle Wayne in 20 rounds and yet you disparage the skills of Thai boxers.)

My point is that they are all different sports that require different skills and I don't get how people can claim one is more skillfull than the other. Of course boxers have a tighter jab than MMA guys, but ask Dowling how his boxing faired him in the MMA ring. Same with endurance really which can actually be quite specific. I've seen good triathletes gas in a few rounds of sparring.

[keyboard warrior]

But i still sit on my laurels that Thai fighters don't adjust as well to boxing, if you can prove me wrong, please do so, but for every guy you show me that has been successful I'll show you 5 or 6 that haven't, so it's not a blanket statement.

Rugby league and union all though appear similar they are completely different games......completely.

Agreed. Thai boxing to boxing is a large jump. I'm not out to prove you wrong on this, like I said "some make the transition, some don't." A successful transition IMO requires a change of stance, the development of upper-body agility and the addition of certain punches and defences. The confusion goes back to my first post talking about Yod and a certain subset of athletic skills, namely his sense of range and timing. I hope I cleared it up last post.

Your points about Union/League serve really well - you shouldn't compare skills across sports. I disagree with those who have posted that boxing requires more skill than Thai boxing. I never claimed the reverse.

[Hounddawg]

But i still sit on my laurels that Thai fighters don't adjust as well to boxing, if you can prove me wrong, please do so, but for every guy you show me that has been successful I'll show you 5 or 6 that haven't, so it's not a blanket statement.

Rugby league and union all though appear similar they are completely different games......completely.

Agreed. Thai boxing to boxing is a large jump. I'm not out to prove you wrong on this, like I said "some make the transition, some don't." A successful transition IMO requires a change of stance, the development of upper-body agility and the addition of certain punches and defences. The confusion goes back to my first post talking about Yod and a certain subset of athletic skills, namely his sense of range and timing. I hope I cleared it up last post.

Your points about Union/League serve really well - you shouldn't compare skills across sports. I disagree with those who have posted that boxing requires more skill than Thai boxing. I never claimed the reverse.

Mate as i said in the last few posts i wasn't trying to make a point whilst putting people down, in my previous statements i said Thai fighters are physically tougher, if you broke it down there entire body is a weapon, and it's also conditioned to recieve punishment in places that the body isn't supposed to. I wasn't putting the Thai game down, i said it was physically demanding, but the mental and endurance go's to boxing, i know you've Thai boxed but i have guys who have done both and they all say the same thing as what i'm saying, however i might not be right, they might not be right, but statistically you would have to go with Boxing as the premier endurance/Mental sport.