Above & Beyond...

[Goodnight, Irene]

Who performed above --- way, way above --- consensus expectations in some of their fights?

How about these to get us started? I will highlight the fellow who made people eat their words...

Shane Mosley vs Antonio Margarito, 2009 (Mosley TKO9 Margarito)
Manny Pacquiao vs. Oscar De La Hoya, 2008 (Pacquiao TKO8 De La Hoya)
Sergio Mora vs. Vernon Forrest I, 2008 (Mora MD12 Forrest)
Carlos Baldomir vs. Zab Judah, 2006 (Baldomir UD12 Judah)
Ricky Hatton vs. Kostya Tszyu, 2005 (Hatton TKO11 Tszyu)
Manny Pacquiao vs. Marco Antonio Barrera I, 2003 (Pacquiao TKO11 Barrera)
Ricardo Mayorga vs. Vernon Forrest I, 2003 (Mayorga TKO3 Forrest)
Vernon Forrest vs. Shane Mosley I, 2002 (Forrest UD12 Mosley)
Bernard Hopkins vs. Felix Trinidad, 2001 (Hopkins TKO12 Trinidad)
George Foreman vs. Michael Moorer, 1994 (Foreman KO10 Moorer)
Troy Waters vs. Terry Norris, 1993 (Norris TKO3 Waters)
Bert Cooper vs. Evander Holyfield, 1991 (Holyfield TKO7 Cooper)
George Foreman vs. Evander Holyfield, 1991 (Holyfield UD12 Foreman)
Buster Douglas vs. Mike Tyson, 1990 (Douglas KO10 Tyson)
Azumah Nelson vs. Salvador Sanchez, 1982 (Sanchez TKO15 Nelson)
Leon Spinks vs. Muhammad Ali I, 1978 (Spinks SD15 Ali)
Muhammad Ali vs. George Foreman, 1974 (Ali KO8 Foreman)
George Foreman vs. Joe Frazier I, 1973 (Foreman TKO2 Frazier)
Muhammad Ali vs. Sonny Liston I, 1964 (Ali TKO6 Liston)
Ingemar Johansson vs. Floyd Patterson I, 1959 (Johansson TKO3 Patterson)
Randy Turpin vs. Ray Robinson I, 1951 (Turpin UD15 Robinson)
Billy Conn vs. Joe Louis I, 1941 (Louis TKO13 Conn)
Gene Tunney vs. Jack Dempsey I, 1926 (Tunney UD10 Dempsey)

[Seamus]

Dave Tiberi vs James Toney
Rene Jacquot vs Donald Curry
Eddie Davis vs Michael Spinks

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Hearns/Leonard 2 & Virgil Hill
Botha/Tyson
Holmes/Mercer
Duran/Barkley & Camacho 1
LeDoux/Norton
Castro/Jirov
Walcott/Charles 3

[alexpaterson]

Duran-Hagler- he was expected to get beat big but he put up a great effort and surprised quite a few people with his performance

[alexpaterson]

Honeygan vs Curry
Wright v Trinadad
Whittaker v De La Hoya

[Ambling Alp]

Ray Leonard-Marvin Hagler
Evander Holyfield-Mike Tyson
Jimmy Braddock-Max Baer
Lew Jenkins-Lou Ambers

[harrygreb]

braddock is a good call versus maxie, jenkins likewise against ambers.

cowdell - sanchez

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Does the fact that jenkins wasted Ambers twice make him a little dominant for this list? Lew was a hell of a fighter when he was sober and in shape.

[Ambling Alp]

I don't think so. Besides their fights against each other, look at what Jenkins did the rest of his career, and compare it to the rest of Ambers' career. It's not remotely close. Ambers had a much, much better career. It has been argued that Ambers was past his best when they fought; still it's incredible that Jenkins whipped him twice.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I don't recall saying that Jenkins had a better career than Ambers. What gave you that idea? Just the whole who performed way, way , way above expectations. Neither fight was close, Ambers was the greater fighter, but Jenkins was talented and everybody knew it. His demons beat him as much as his competition. They are by far the two best wins of his career, so I see that aspect of it.

[Knucklez]

Mugabi giving Hagler all he could handle until being eventually worn down by "the continous assault" of the Marvellous One (Al Bernstein commentary) and refusing to be intimidated or consider the notion of defeat until the moment it came.

[Ambling Alp]

I don't recall saying that Jenkins had a better career than Ambers. What gave you that idea? Just the whole who performed way, way , way above expectations. Neither fight was close, Ambers was the greater fighter, but Jenkins was talented and everybody knew it. His demons beat him as much as his competition. They are by far the two best wins of his career, so I see that aspect of it.

Well, I was not saying that you said Jenkins had a better career. The point that I am making was that Jenkins had to have by far his best perfromances of his career to beat Ambers. His next biggest win is a win over a young Bob Montgomery. There is a big drop off after that in terms of big wins for Jenkins. We are talking about a guy that won less than 2/3 of his fights beating one of the All-tTme greats convincingly. Jenkins certainly did not show this great talent that often. Since the topic is "Above and Beyond" a fighters norm, this seems to be a classic case.

[HomicideHenry]

Larry Holmes vs Ray Mercer....who would have thought that Holmes not only still had it, but to win in such a convincing fashion, with little tune ups?

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I don't recall saying that Jenkins had a better career than Ambers. What gave you that idea? Just the whole who performed way, way , way above expectations. Neither fight was close, Ambers was the greater fighter, but Jenkins was talented and everybody knew it. His demons beat him as much as his competition. They are by far the two best wins of his career, so I see that aspect of it.

Well, I was not saying that you said Jenkins had a better career. The point that I am making was that Jenkins had to have by far his best perfromances of his career to beat Ambers. His next biggest win is a win over a young Bob Montgomery. There is a big drop off after that in terms of big wins for Jenkins. We are talking about a guy that won less than 2/3 of his fights beating one of the All-tTme greats convincingly. Jenkins certainly did not show this great talent that often. Since the topic is "Above and Beyond" a fighters norm, this seems to be a classic case.

You keep addressing points that I didn't make. All I was saying is was it really that shocking when he did it again in a rematch? Nobody could believe their eyes when he smashed him the second time?

Doing it again makes it look more like styles than way, way above anything. Jenkins was a fierce puncher and the usually granite chinned Ambers couldn't handle it. Lew fought like he always did, but he was in condition. Alltime great or tomato can, Jenkins will always test your chin.

[Jaywheel]

Barrera-Hamed
Durelle-Moore

[Ambling Alp]

I don't recall saying that Jenkins had a better career than Ambers. What gave you that idea? Just the whole who performed way, way , way above expectations. Neither fight was close, Ambers was the greater fighter, but Jenkins was talented and everybody knew it. His demons beat him as much as his competition. They are by far the two best wins of his career, so I see that aspect of it.

Well, I was not saying that you said Jenkins had a better career. The point that I am making was that Jenkins had to have by far his best perfromances of his career to beat Ambers. His next biggest win is a win over a young Bob Montgomery. There is a big drop off after that in terms of big wins for Jenkins. We are talking about a guy that won less than 2/3 of his fights beating one of the All-tTme greats convincingly. Jenkins certainly did not show this great talent that often. Since the topic is "Above and Beyond" a fighters norm, this seems to be a classic case.

You keep addressing points that I didn't make. All I was saying is was it really that shocking when he did it again in a rematch? Nobody could believe their eyes when he smashed him the second time?

Doing it again makes it look more like styles than way, way above anything. Jenkins was a fierce puncher and the usually granite chinned Ambers couldn't handle it. Lew fought like he always did, but he was in condition. Alltime great or tomato can, Jenkins will always test your chin.

I really don't know what you mean that I am addressing point's that you didn't make. Some of the points that I am making are my own. Some were in reference to what you said. I did not claim that you said anything that you did not.

I do agree with you that it is less surprising Jenkins did it a second time, though I'm sure a lot of people thought the first fight was a fluke.

As for Jenkins punching power; well he could punch. However he was not by any means a brutal puncher. His ko% is not execptional. Jenkins failed to stop an awful lot of fighters that were not remotley in Ambers class. He never stopped anyone else in Ambers' class.

As you mentioned, Ambers had a granite chin. He over 100 fights in his pro career, and the only two times that he was stopped was by Jenkins. That makes Jenkins' success against Ambers all the more most puzziling. His performances against Ambers were Above and Beyond what he during the rest of his career.

I think we have beat this to death. I did not mean to hijack this thread by talking so much about Ambers and Jenkins.

[Expug]

I would say that Tom "The Bomb" Bethea really came with his A game by stopping Nino Benvenutti in 1970.

[harrygreb]

let me referee this one....lew jenkins whipping lou ambers twice deserves to be on this thread... and then some.