Middleweight League Competition...

[Goodnight, Irene]

I will post the draw later, but I intend to do one of these leagues for five divisions in total (Heavyweight, Light-Heavyweight --- already done --- & Middle, Welter & Lightweight).

Below will be the combatants for the Middleweight League...

Marcel Cerdan (111-4-0, 65 KO's)
Harry Greb (103-8-3, 48 KO's)
Marvin Hagler (62-3-2, 52 KO's)
Bernard Hopkins (50-5-1, 32 KO's)
Stanley Ketchel (51-4-4, 48 KO's)
Carlos Monzon (87-3-9, 59 KO's)
Ray Robinson (173-19-6, 108 KO's)
Mickey Walker (93-20-4, 59 KO's)

We've so far crowned Sonny Liston & Gene Tunney as champions. Who will be next? 8)

[jimglen]

I think contests between Ketchel, Greb and Cerdan would be the most thrilling with the Toy Bulldog just following and then SRR for finess and greatness and then Hagler next - they are all great, but I'm going on an impression by the late great Frank Butler who seen both Walker and Cerdan and he thought Cerdan could edge him.

great bunch but hopkins isn't in the same league and well out of his depth.

[dr_devious]

Hard to pick, all great fighters. Ive gone for Marvin Hagler, mostly cos hes my favourite fighter. Could be Greb or Monzon though, no-one goes through it unbeaten

[Grimm]

I think contests between Ketchel, Greb and Cerdan would be the most thrilling with the Toy Bulldog just following and then SRR for finess and greatness and then Hagler next - they are all great, but I'm going on an impression by the late great Frank Butler who seen both Walker and Cerdan and he thought Cerdan could edge him.

great bunch but hopkins isn't in the same league and well out of his depth.

I think Ketchel is the one that's really out of his league here.

[jimglen]

I agree,

boxing did evolve from Ketchel's time to a more refined art and abilities, culminating to the greatst overall period late 30s - mid 50s (middleweight paticularly), and a definate decline in the last 25, give or take years....

But Ketchel's time was far more brutal, rugged and harder than Hopkins.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I think contests between Ketchel, Greb and Cerdan would be the most thrilling with the Toy Bulldog just following and then SRR for finess and greatness and then Hagler next - they are all great, but I'm going on an impression by the late great Frank Butler who seen both Walker and Cerdan and he thought Cerdan could edge him.

great bunch but hopkins isn't in the same league and well out of his depth.

It isn't meant to be the best eight of all-time, necessarily --- just eight all-timer Middleweights. Hopkins, as an inclusion, has posterity on his side --- the longest-reigning champion in division history, with the most defenses. I know that means varying things to a lot of people, but even allowing for his largely lesser competition, I can't spurn that kind of history.

[Ezzard]

I think you should take Greb out. Nobody has seen him fight and this makes it very difficult to assess how he would do.

Ketchel had numbing power, a big heart and chin. We can see some footage and extrapolate from that.

I will try to post my thoughts later.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Round 1:

Cerdan vs. Walker (Cerdan UD12 Walker)
Greb vs. Robinson (Robinson TKO11 Greb)
Hagler vs. Monzon (Hagler D12 Monzon)
Hopkins vs. Ketchel (Hopkins SD12 Ketchel)

Round 2:

Cerdan vs. Hopkins (Cerdan UD12 Hopkins)
Greb vs. Hagler (Greb UD12 Hagler)
Walker vs. Ketchel (Walker UD12 Ketchel)
Robinson vs. Monzon (Monzon UD12 Robinson)

Round 3:

Cerdan vs. Greb (Greb SD12 Cerdan)
Walker vs. Robinson (Robinson UD12 Walker)
Hopkins vs. Hagler (Hopkins MD12 Hagler)
Ketchel vs. Monzon (Monzon TKO8 Ketchel)

Round 4:

Cerdan vs. Ketchel (Ketchel KO10 Cerdan)
Walker vs. Hopkins (Walker SD12 Hopkins)
Greb vs. Monzon (Greb UD12 Monzon)
Robinson vs. Hagler (Hagler TKO12 Robinson)

Round 5:

Cerdan vs. Robinson (Cerdan UD12 Robinson)
Walker vs. Greb (Greb SD12 Walker)
Ketchel vs. Hagler (Ketchel TKO10 Hagler)
Hopkins vs. Monzon (Monzon TKO11 Hopkins)

Round 6:

Cerdan vs. Monzon (Monzon TKO12 Cerdan)
Walker vs. Hagler (Hagler SD12 Walker)
Robinson vs. Hopkins (Robinson UD12 Hopkins)
Greb vs. Ketchel (Greb UD12 Ketchel)

Round 7:

Cerdan vs. Hagler (Cerdan UD12 Hagler)
Walker vs. Monzon (Walker MD12 Monzon)
Robinson vs. Ketchel (Robinson UD12 Ketchel)
Hopkins vs. Greb (Greb UD12 Hopkins)

Round 8:

Cerdan vs. Walker (Walker SD12 Cerdan)
Greb vs. Robinson (Greb UD12 Robinson)
Hagler vs. Monzon (Monzon UD12 Hagler)
Hopkins vs. Ketchel (Ketchel TKO9 Hopkins)

Round 9:

Cerdan vs. Hopkins (Hopkins MD12 Cerdan)
Greb vs. Hagler (Greb UD12 Hagler)
Walker vs. Ketchel (Walker TKO12 Ketchel)
Monzon vs. Robinson (Robinson KO9 Monzon)

Round 10:

Greb vs. Cerdan (Greb SD12 Cerdan)
Walker vs. Robinson (Robinson TKO11 Walker)
Hopkins vs. Hagler (Hagler UD12 Hopkins)
Ketchel vs. Monzon (Ketchel TKO2 Monzon)

Round 11:

Cerdan vs. Ketchel (Ketchel KO11 Cerdan)
Walker vs. Hopkins (Walker UD12 Hopkins)
Greb vs. Monzon (Monzon TKO12 Greb)
Robinson vs. Hagler (Robinson UD12 Hagler)

Round 12:

Cerdan vs. Robinson (Robinson UD12 Cerdan)
Walker vs. Greb (Greb D12 Walker)
Ketchel vs. Hagler (Hagler TKO11 Ketchel)
Hopkins vs. Monzon (Monzon UD12 Hopkins)

Round 13:

Cerdan vs. Monzon (Monzon SD12 Cerdan)
Walker vs. Hagler (Walker MD12 Hagler)
Robinson vs. Hopkins (Robinson UD12 Hopkins)
Greb vs. Ketchel (Greb UD12 Ketchel)

Round 14:

Cerdan vs. Hagler (Hagler UD12 Cerdan)
Walker vs. Monzon (Monzon UD12 Walker)
Robinson vs. Ketchel (Robinson TKO10 Ketchel)
Hopkins vs. Greb (Greb UD12 Hopkins)

League Standings...

1. Greb (11-2-1, 0 KO's 23 Pts.)
2. Robinson (10-4-0, 4 KO's 20 Pts.)
3. Monzon (94-1, 4 KO's, 19 Pts.)
4. Walker (7-6-1, 1 KO 15 Pts.)

5. Hagler (5-8-1, 2 KO's 11 Pts.)
6. Ketchel (5-9-0, 5 KO's 10 Pts.)
7. Cerdan (4-10-0, 0 KO's 8 Pts.)
8. Hopkins (2-12-0, 0 KO's 4 Pts.)

Preliminary Finals:

Greb vs. Robinson (Robinson TKO12 Greb)
Monzon vs. Walker (Monzon TKO12 Walker)

Sudden Death:

Greb vs. Monzon (Greb UD12 Monzon)

Grand Final:

Robinson vs. Greb (Greb MD15 Robinson)

Champion: From Pittsburgh, USA, "The Human Windmill," Harrrryyyyyy Grebbbbbbb!!!

[boxing_fanatic_87]

Robinson is arguably the greatest fighter of all time. But, he's not the greatest Middleweight of all time, and I think he'd have a lot of trouble trying to get by Hagler, Monzon, and Greb. Hagler, Monzon and Greb would be the Top 3 guys in this league. Nobody among them is a bad fighter by any means though. Maybe in Heaven if there is one. We'll get to see tourneys like this for real.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Robinson is arguably the greatest fighter of all time. But, he's not the greatest Middleweight of all time, and I think he'd have a lot of trouble trying to get by Hagler, Monzon, and Greb. Hagler, Monzon and Greb would be the Top 3 guys in this league. Nobody among them is a bad fighter by any means though. Maybe in Heaven if there is one. We'll get to see tourneys like this for real.

I agree that Greb & Monzon are the top two, with Hagler a very possible third. Robinson can best any Middleweight on his night, though --- he was good enough. You'll notice Monzon didn't make the Grand Final --- even though he's my #2 all-time behind Greb (I once held Monzon as #1), I wanted a little surprise here & there in the Tournament --- such things would happen in reality, with these greats, anyway.

I had Robinson splitting four fights with Greb (losing the decider), going 1-1 with Monzon, & 1-1 with Hagler. The shock was when I tallied the league standings, Hagler didn't make the cut for the Finals.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I was thinking about doing leagues at Welter & Lightweight, too, but it doesn't look like the three thus far (Heavy, Light-Heavy, & Middle) have attracted the attention I'd hoped for. Maybe I'll leave it for a bit.

[BoxBuzz]

I agree that no one escapes unbeaten. Robinson gets the nod in an ultimate welterweight version but not the middleweight face off.

Greb Hagler Monzon are the most consisitent winners IMHO. and I think Hagler and Monzon have the edge due to the advances of boxing techniques. At the end of the day I see Monzon as winner in a war of attrition where he may take a loss along the way. And that single loss may be what catapults him to another level. I don't think a loss does anything but inspire him mentally. The attributes I see that takes Monzon all the way are his combination of physical durability, near genius ring generalship (no one will be able to outhink Monzon) and his cool as a cucumber never flustered demeanor. He is not the fastest or the hardest hitting, but his ability to consistently be approaching his opponent like he's a Rubick's cube to be solved, ability to exploit EVERY weakness of his opponent and his absolute coolness under fire will take him further overall than the others.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I agree that no one escapes unbeaten. Robinson gets the nod in an ultimate welterweight version but not the middleweight face off.

Greb Hagler Monzon are the most consisitent winners IMHO. and I think Hagler and Monzon have the edge due to the advances of boxing techniques. At the end of the day I see Monzon as winner in a war of attrition where he may take a loss along the way. And that single loss may be what catapults him to another level. I don't think a loss does anything but inspire him mentally. The attributes I see that takes Monzon all the way are his combination of physical durability, near genius ring generalship (no one will be able to outhink Monzon) and his cool as a cucumber never flustered demeanor. He is not the fastest or the hardest hitting, but his ability to consistently be approaching his opponent like he's a Rubick's cube to be solved, ability to exploit EVERY weakness of his opponent and his absolute coolness under fire will take him further overall than the others.

You have to admit, though --- Greb would be a test of Monzon's composure like no other. The type Monzon couldn't even dream of.

[BoxBuzz]

I agree that no one escapes unbeaten. Robinson gets the nod in an ultimate welterweight version but not the middleweight face off.

Greb Hagler Monzon are the most consisitent winners IMHO. and I think Hagler and Monzon have the edge due to the advances of boxing techniques. At the end of the day I see Monzon as winner in a war of attrition where he may take a loss along the way. And that single loss may be what catapults him to another level. I don't think a loss does anything but inspire him mentally. The attributes I see that takes Monzon all the way are his combination of physical durability, near genius ring generalship (no one will be able to outhink Monzon) and his cool as a cucumber never flustered demeanor. He is not the fastest or the hardest hitting, but his ability to consistently be approaching his opponent like he's a Rubick's cube to be solved, ability to exploit EVERY weakness of his opponent and his absolute coolness under fire will take him further overall than the others.

You have to admit, though --- Greb would be a test of Monzon's composure like no other. The type Monzon couldn't even dream of.

I'd need to see more of him before I could really judge. But because of him and other great fighters before the 70's much was learned and Hagler and Monzon benefited from the evolution of the sport.

[Idisagree]

Hagler edges Monzon BoxBuzz

[BoxBuzz]

Hagler edges Monzon BoxBuzz

Perhaps, but only in the Bizzarro world.

[Idisagree]

Hagler edges Monzon BoxBuzz

Perhaps, but only in the Bizzarro world.

Is Bizzarro your real name?

Hagler will always be slightly > than Monzon

[Elton John]

Hagler has the most diversity therefore he would win because he has many more ways available to him that would allow him to deal with the various styles

he would eat up Monzon on the inside, and box Greb silly with the jab. Greb would never make it in today's world with all its rules and regulations

[BoxBuzz]

Hagler has the most diversity therefore he would win because he has many more ways available to him that would allow him to deal with the various styles

he would eat up Monzon on the inside, and box Greb silly with the jab. Greb would never make it in today's world with all its rules and regulations

Idisagree with your assessment Monzon vs Hagler. Though your Greb thoughts make sense to me.

[Idisagree]

Hagler has the most diversity therefore he would win because he has many more ways available to him that would allow him to deal with the various styles

he would eat up Monzon on the inside, and box Greb silly with the jab. Greb would never make it in today's world with all its rules and regulations

Idisagree with your assessment Monzon vs Hagler. Though your Greb thoughts make sense to me.

Hey stop using my user name

BTW I agree with everything that Elton wrote.

[Goodnight, Irene]

"...Hagler will always be slightly > than Monzon " - Idisagree

I disagree

Monzon is & was the better man, for my money.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Hagler has the most diversity therefore he would win because he has many more ways available to him that would allow him to deal with the various styles

he would eat up Monzon on the inside, and box Greb silly with the jab. Greb would never make it in today's world with all its rules and regulations

You can beat Gene Tunney, but you can't beat Marvin Hagler. LOL. You know something? Tunney is better than Hagler POUND-FOR-POUND, even before you consider the obvious size advantage Tunney has over Hagler.

Hagler, "boxing Greb silly?" The only more disturbing thing said in this thread so far is that the two members to post in response to that agree with you

[Elton John]

You can beat Gene Tunney, but you can't beat Marvin Hagler. LOL. You know something? Tunney is better than Hagler POUND-FOR-POUND, even before you consider the obvious size advantage Tunney has over Hagler.

Hagler, "boxing Greb silly?" The only more disturbing thing said in this thread so far is that the two members to post in response to that agree with you

Over at Eastside I was the one telling others that Tunney was underrated. They actually had that clown Ray Leonard ranked above him. I asked them if they were aware of his record and they refused to reply

Guess who won that one?

According to updated rules in boxing where Greb could not get away with rpeated fouls, Hagler would catch Greb coming in with his flesh ripping right jab. Also, Hagler could brawl with the best of them including Hearns and Minter

and had Greb gotten in close, Hagler would control that too with his right hook-his best punch. Remember how he tamed Hamsho's wild rushes. Also remember another southpaw that had Greb's number

[Goodnight, Irene]

Sorry, but why are the rules of the fight, "automatically up-dated?"

Why is it any less legitimate to make Hagler fight under Greb's rules? It isn't.

[Grimm]

Hagler has the most diversity therefore he would win because he has many more ways available to him that would allow him to deal with the various styles

he would eat up Monzon on the inside, and box Greb silly with the jab. Greb would never make it in today's world with all its rules and regulations

You can beat Gene Tunney, but you can't beat Marvin Hagler. LOL. You know something? Tunney is better than Hagler POUND-FOR-POUND, even before you consider the obvious size advantage Tunney has over Hagler.

Hagler, "boxing Greb silly?" The only more disturbing thing said in this thread so far is that the two members to post in response to that agree with you

What would make you think Greb would be able to beat Hagler?