Harry Greb's Missing Film...

klompton · Post by **klompton** » 22 Jan 2005, 18:17

So quote those newspaper sources that you have supposedly seen which tout Greb as throwing lows blows, elbows, etc. You say a few photos, historians quotes, and newspaper accounts are all that is left of Greb. Every one of Grebs fights is well documented by a ringside observer in at least one newspaper all the way back to his amateur career. I have over five hundred photos of the man myself and I know for a fact I dont have all the photos that exist of him. We have interviews with MANY of the fighters he faced attesting to his ability. Men such as Chuck Wiggins, Maxie Rosenbloom, Gene Tunney, Gus Christie, Frank Mantell, Tommy Robson, Jimmy Slattery, Tommy Loughran, Johnny Wilson, Jack Dillon, Mike Gibbons, Tommy Gibbons, Battling Levinsky,Augie Ratner, Mickey Walker and many more. We also have quite a few interviews of Greb himself and several articles about his life, his sport, and his fights penned by him. Throughout the years men who grew up with Greb, knew him as a child, watched him develop as a fighter, or simply saw him fight have written their thoughts on him which we have as well. As I said the stories of his alleged dirty tactics began with the hostile New York press (who tried to extort money from Greb) and the only time they actually came close to being right was when Greb was accused of holding and hitting. If you have evidence from eye-witness sources that refutes this then lets see post it. Otherwise dont post in generalisations that you have read in ring magazine written by men who never saw Greb fight fifty years after the mans death.

tonyevs · Post by **tonyevs** » 23 Jan 2005, 07:38

There was a brilliant book written about Harry Greb by James R. Fair.
The author tells the story of Greb by eye witness accounts, lots of stories and quite a few times he mentions the rough stuff.
I am not saying it is true but wouldn’t you agree these tactics were widely used, to rub the laces up the face in a clinch and another story is he actually let the ref catch a shot one time when he felt the ref wasn`t on the level.

Sure the was a lot of hype with Harry Greb, like the myth he never trained, Rob Snell sent me a newspaper article that had Cuddy De Marco saying Harry was hardly ever out of the gym.

But to now make out he was whiter than white I think is going too far.

tonyevs · Post by **tonyevs** » 23 Jan 2005, 07:42

robert.snell1 · Post by **robert.snell1** » 23 Jan 2005, 08:20

it is a common theme on the subject of Greb that Klompton jumps down from a great hight when someone says anything about greb which he does not agree with. It is a complete waste of time to try and get him to change his mind and what you get if you go down this road is more comments about how stupid etc etc etc you are.

he i am sad to say is not someone who will accept any view other than his own and at times can be very offensive. I am at a loss to understand how and why he has come to be this way with people as it is clear he is a great fan of boxing and debating it with others.

I am sure that the people who know me will be well aware of the fact that i do not have a go at people but this situation of having a go at other people is just a farce. I can just hope he listens to this and does not respond in the usual manner.

the thread on Jack Johnson is a classic in that regard.

So Steve stop being so YOU

Cap · Post by **Cap** » 23 Jan 2005, 14:42

Actually, I really do think Greb was a great fighter. I just think he was allowed to get away with tactics that we blanche at today, but were perfectly acceptable back in the day. I mean, sometimes fighters entered a match with plasters on their foreheads. This is documented. You'd never get away with that nowadays.

Keep up the good fight, Klompton! Hope to read your book before I die.

Cap

klompton · Post by **klompton** » 23 Jan 2005, 14:49

The so called great book about Greb by James Fair was full of lies and half truths. It was so fictionalized that the publishers pulled it from the presses for fear of getting sued. Thats why the book is so rare now. Fair acts as if he knew Greb personally and relates stories as such when in reality most Greb experts agree that if he knew Greb at all it was simply in passing. He even told Stanley Weston former publisher of Boxing Illustrated and Ring Magazine that he didnt know Greb that well. If you are diligent enough you can actually track down some of the articles he stole those stories from and no mention is made of him, he simply injected himself and "sexed" them up. Its sad that to this day that rag of a book is considered a first rate source on Greb.

Rob, Im sorry if you think Im attacking people unfairly but much of what is being said here is simply untrue. Maybe it would be prudent of me to let people continue posting falsehoods about a man they have so many misconceptions of but I would rather try to set the story straight.

klompton · Post by **klompton** » 23 Jan 2005, 14:53

The so called great book about Greb by James Fair was full of lies and half truths. It was so fictionalized that the publishers pulled it from the presses for fear of getting sued. Thats why the book is so rare now. Fair acts as if he knew Greb personally and relates stories as such when in reality most Greb experts agree that if he knew Greb at all it was simply in passing. He even told Stanley Weston former publisher of Boxing Illustrated and Ring Magazine that he didnt know Greb that well. If you are diligent enough you can actually track down some of the articles he stole those stories from and no mention is made of him, he simply injected himself and "sexed" them up. Its sad that to this day that rag of a book is considered a first rate source on Greb.

Rob, Im sorry if you think Im attacking people unfairly but much of what is being said here is simply untrue. Maybe it would be prudent of me to let people continue posting falsehoods about a man they have so many misconceptions of but I would rather try to set the story straight.

tonyevs · Post by **tonyevs** » 23 Jan 2005, 16:21

As far as I know it is the only book on Greb.

Who can say for definite if he really did know him, you yourself quote somebody else as saying James Fair did not know Harry Greb that well.

The book was written 20yrs after the great mans death, and I am sure it would have been easier to get first hand accounts of Greb from people that really did see him in action back then, unlike 80yrs later when the facts could really have been lost, and people would have to accept what other people had written without knowing if these people had other motives.

Jack Kearns a great story teller in his own right admits that he used his charm to persuade the journalists of the day to influence them in their call of a fight in the no decision era, so doesn’t that put a little question mark over newspaper reports and verdicts.

I was looking forward to reading your title on Harry Greb but your comments make me question if it will be an honest and unbiased account of the great man.
And if your info is concrete could you just answer why you believe he went into hospital in the first place, now there is the million dollar question.

robert.snell1 · Post by **robert.snell1** » 23 Jan 2005, 18:14

klompton wrote:The so called great book about Greb by James Fair was full of lies and half truths. It was so fictionalized that the publishers pulled it from the presses for fear of getting sued. Thats why the book is so rare now. Fair acts as if he knew Greb personally and relates stories as such when in reality most Greb experts agree that if he knew Greb at all it was simply in passing. He even told Stanley Weston former publisher of Boxing Illustrated and Ring Magazine that he didnt know Greb that well. If you are diligent enough you can actually track down some of the articles he stole those stories from and no mention is made of him, he simply injected himself and "sexed" them up. Its sad that to this day that rag of a book is considered a first rate source on Greb.

Rob, Im sorry if you think Im attacking people unfairly but much of what is being said here is simply untrue. Maybe it would be prudent of me to let people continue posting falsehoods about a man they have so many misconceptions of but I would rather try to set the story straight.

Thanks very much for your reply and may i say the way in which is written. One of the points you have made in the past is how different a fight report can be. At times it woulld seem they were records of 2 separate events. Its what we call the "Spin Doctor" version at present and
it is something which is relevant to both Greb and Johnson.

klompton · Post by **klompton** » 23 Jan 2005, 20:55

tonyevs wrote:As far as I know it is the only book on Greb.

Who can say for definite if he really did know him, you yourself quote somebody else as saying James Fair did not know Harry Greb that well.

The book was written 20yrs after the great mans death, and I am sure it would have been easier to get first hand accounts of Greb from people that really did see him in action back then, unlike 80yrs later when the facts could really have been lost, and people would have to accept what other people had written without knowing if these people had other motives.

Jack Kearns a great story teller in his own right admits that he used his charm to persuade the journalists of the day to influence them in their call of a fight in the no decision era, so doesn’t that put a little question mark over newspaper reports and verdicts.

I was looking forward to reading your title on Harry Greb but your comments make me question if it will be an honest and unbiased account of the great man.
And if your info is concrete could you just answer why you believe he went into hospital in the first place, now there is the million dollar question.

The people who refute James Fairs book not only knew Greb but were quoted by Fair in the book. Friends, Family members, etc. They all said Fair was full of shit and that he fictionalised Grebs like. These are people that Fair supposedly interviewed. Many of them were interviewed in Pittsburgh newspapers after the publication of the book and denied having anything to do with it. Harry Keck who was "quoted" by Fair was extremely critical of the book. As I said it was pulled from the presses. How many books get pulled even if they arent 100% on the money? Not many so that tells you how bad Fairs book was. Another problem with Fairs book is that he relies heavily on Happy Albacker as a first hand source. Happy knew Greb but he wasnt as close to Greb as Fair writes. Jack Albacker, Happys brother and the man who is pictured in the famous photo of Greb in his casket, was the Albacker brother who closest to Greb and when Happy helped Fair write that book Jack was furious. It started a family feud between the two.

As for why Greb went to the hospital I can only ask which time you are referring to. Im assuming you refer to the final time when he died but he went to the hospital several times throughout his career for various reasons. Let me know and I will answer to the best of my ability.

tonyevs · Post by **tonyevs** » 24 Jan 2005, 09:28

Yes the last time he went to hospital is the time I was asking about.
This to has been put down as many different reasons, to have the eye removed, car accident and the one I think is the more believable to have his nose made pretty, because wasn`t it true Harry was very vain.

pound per pound · Post by **pound per pound** » 24 Jan 2005, 10:24

I have read some stuff on Greb vs Tunney. Greb of course was the only man to beat Tunney. Some feel Greb deserved another decision vs Tunney but it is hardly mentioned today. However, there is evidence that Greb did foul Tunney. Klompton seems to be a Greb expert. 500 photos of Greb you say, and all of his clippings? Impressive collection. To debate Greb with a Greb historian with equal information is not an even debate. It would be equivalent to you talking boxing in Greek to a Greek speaking historian. In short you're the expert on Greb and I am not. As a historan and fan of Greb, showing us proff of the facts is what we seek.

I brought up Greb's fouls. Getting back to Greb's fouls:

According to numerous records of the fight, Greb 'caused the damage' by head butting Tunney repeatedly from the first round onward.

Greb fractured Tunney's nose in 2 different places with 2 different head butts, then he created severe cuts over both eyes with 2 more head butts, and at least one of the cuts severed an artery which produced PROFUSE bleeding causing Tunney to attempt to fight through a red haze of blood and while losing a huge quantity of blood

I am curious to see Klompton's reply to this. Since you own numerous fight reports on Greb, and I do not, here's you chance to dispell a myth that Greb was not as dirty as indicated vs Tunney in the fight Greb offically won. If you could post the entire news report on the first fight, I for one will have learned something. Since the New York press is baised, ( reporters hated Tunney ), another source will be fine.

tonyevs · Post by **tonyevs** » 24 Jan 2005, 11:45

I too have read an excerpt from Tunneys autobiography where he says an artery was severed.
As well as not being a Harry Greb expert, I am not a medical expert either, but wouldn’t a severed artery quickly lead to heavy blood loss and death?

Pinch of salt once more.

klompton · Post by **klompton** » 24 Jan 2005, 22:32

Greb went into the hospital because weeks earlier he had been in a car accident where his nose was severly broken. A bone at the base of his skull had been disloged and was causing problems with his breathing. He went to have the bone removed. During the course of the operation an unknown blood clot in his brain sustained during the car accident ruptured and he died shortly after coming out of anasthesia. I have his death certificate and interviews with the attending physician.

As for the butt that Tunney accused Greb of: Most accounts of the fight say that Greb walked out of his corner and hit Tunney square on the nose with a right hand, his first punch of the fight. Tunneys nose was obviously broken and gushing blood from that point on. Had Greb been alive when Tunney started publishing all of his bullshit they probably would have fought a sixth time, outside the ring.

tonyevs · Post by **tonyevs** » 25 Jan 2005, 06:37

Thanks for that Klompton.
Must say though, it must have been hell of a car smash to damage an already flattened nose like Greb wore.
Shame really though I liked the one about him having it made pretty to go into films.

Tunney says himself in his Autobiography Greb came out and pretty much smashed his nose with his first punch.

Do you think Harry asked Tunney to carry him during the last part of the last fight, something Tunney alleges also.

klompton · Post by **klompton** » 25 Jan 2005, 22:54

I think Greb would rather swallow crushed glass than ask someone to carry him. Thats Tunney the self promoter trying to build up his image.

Chuck1052 · Post by **Chuck1052** » 26 Jan 2005, 04:03

Over the years, I have read the following:

1. A number of articles related to Harry Greb in boxing magazines.

2. The biography on Greb, GIVE HIM TO THE ANGELS

3. Newspaper reports on a number of Greb's bouts

I can tell you that latter day authors often didn't know
about Greb's actual boxing skills. It is true that Greb
wasn't a classical boxer, but reports of Greb's bouts
show that he could give his opponents fits with his
footwork and defensive skills. But....there are
recent boxing writers who are under the impression
that Greb had a leaky defense and poor footwork.
All-Time Middleweight Ratings with each boxing
skill being graded often give Greb the short shift
because it is felt that he was just a brawler.

- Chuck Johnston

klompton · Post by **klompton** » 26 Jan 2005, 12:20

As usual Chuck is exactly right.

pound per pound · Post by **pound per pound** » 26 Jan 2005, 20:23

So who was the real Harry Greb then? How can we tell with no film, and historians having across the board opinions on him? And was there any film on Greb? Surely if he was filmed, I see no reason why it did not last. Boxing films from the 1890’s are around, so why not the 1920’s?

My guess is Greb was extremely durable, awkward defensively, and threw a lot of punches to the point of smothering the other guy’s offense. I do not think he was a big puncher; rather the guy was a pure fighter with heart who outworked the other guy. I also feel Greb was not shy about mixing in fouls.

klompton · Post by **klompton** » 26 Jan 2005, 21:24

So film is a pre-requisite for greatness? All of his accomplishments should be ignored because we cant see them on film? So John L. Sullivan, Peter Jackson, Tiger Flowers, Maxie Rosenbloom, Jack Dillon, Jack "nonpareil" Dempsey, Joe Walcott, Jack Britton and the like should be ignored due to the lack of film on them? What about the great fighters who dont look so good in what little film exists on them like Ketchel, Corbett, Jack O'Brien, John Henry Lewis, etc.

Dont be so ignorant as to assume that because film doesnt exist on a fighter that it was purposely destroyed. Most, thats right MOST, of the films of that era do not exist anymore. The films that do exist are in black in white, filmed with early equipment and often under less than ideal situations. They didnt have the benefit of 100 years of technology and the HBO hype machine to make them look "fabulous". Dont fall into the trap that so many young people do today thinking that people couldnt box or punch hard before color TV was invented.

pound per pound · Post by **pound per pound** » 27 Jan 2005, 10:43

klompton wrote:So film is a pre-requisite for greatness? All of his accomplishments should be ignored because we cant see them on film? So John L. Sullivan, Peter Jackson, Tiger Flowers, Maxie Rosenbloom, Jack Dillon, Jack "nonpareil" Dempsey, Joe Walcott, Jack Britton and the like should be ignored due to the lack of film on them? What about the great fighters who dont look so good in what little film exists on them like Ketchel, Corbett, Jack O'Brien, John Henry Lewis, etc.

Dont be so ignorant as to assume that because film doesnt exist on a fighter that it was purposely destroyed. Most, thats right MOST, of the films of that era do not exist anymore. The films that do exist are in black in white, filmed with early equipment and often under less than ideal situations. They didnt have the benefit of 100 years of technology and the HBO hype machine to make them look "fabulous". Dont fall into the trap that so many young people do today thinking that people couldnt box or punch hard before color TV was invented.

My good man,

I think Greb's ring record is good enough to call him great without any film. I was merely pointing out that what Chuck said. It seems that many writers had different opinions on Greb. With no film on Greb, Greb’s style, and abilities are very subjective. It all depends on which writer you choose to believe, and as I mentioned before there seems to be no set consensus on Greb. If there is one, I’d like to read it.

Regading your comments on flim, I think the writing more or less gives us a picture of the fighters.

With JackO’ Brien the writers all say he was a defensive guy without a stiff punch, and guess what, that is what we see on film. Ketchel was a crude slugger. Ketchel scored a knockdown vs Jack Johnson. We see this on film. Corbett was very quick, and skilled for his era, we see this on film. So what is the consensus on Greb? I don’t know, but if film ever is discovered on Greb, I must believe we would be able to see what the consensus of those who saw him saw.

Again, no one here is saying Greb wasn't a great fighter. He was one of the best middle weights of all time.

Brutu · Post by **Brutu** » 29 Jan 2005, 04:52

I was reading in the book about Jack Dempsey,
A FLAME OF PURE FIRE,
that Gene Tunney studied newsreels of Dempsey's fights before he fought him.
If so,wouldnt it seem logical that Tunney would have had films of Hary Greb
to study?I Also think the last Tunny vrs Greb fight was reportly filmed.

Harry Greb's Missing Film...

thank you

greb

Re: Reports of Greb's Fights and Articles In Magazines

Greb

Greb film