A Heavyweight League Competition...

[Crease]

* Dempsey, Foreman, Frazier, Holmes, Holyfield, Lewis, Liston & Tyson*

(- NO Muhammad Ali, Joe Louis, Jack Johnson OR Rocky Marciano)

Anyway here's how I see the vast amount of matches.

Round 1:

Dempsey vs. Tyson (Dempsey KO Tyson round 9)
Foreman vs. Liston (Foreman KO Liston round 6)
Frazier vs. Lewis (Frazier stops Lewis round 11)
Holmes vs. Holyfield (Holyfield wins by stoppage round 10)

Round 2:

Dempsey vs. Holmes (Dempsey KO5 Holmes)
Foreman vs. Frazier (Foreman KO3 Frazier)
Tyson vs. Holyfield (Tyson SD12 Holyfield)
Liston vs. Lewis (Liston stoppage round 12)

Round 3:

Dempsey vs. Foreman (Foreman KO6 Dempsey)
Tyson vs. Liston (Tyson KO Liston round 9)
Holmes vs. Frazier (Frazier wins by points)
Holyfield vs. Lewis (Holyfield wins by points)

Round 4:

Dempsey vs. Holyfield (Dempsey KO round 10)
Tyson vs. Holmes (Tyson KO round 6)
Foreman vs. Lewis (Foreman KO3 Lewis)
Liston vs. Frazier (Frazier wins by stoppage round 10)

Round 5:

Dempsey vs. Frazier (Dempsey wins by KO round 7)
Holyfield vs. Liston (Liston wins on points)
Tyson vs. Lewis (Tyson KO1 Lewis)
Holmes vs. Foreman (Foreman wins by KO round 6)

Round 6:

Dempsey vs. Liston (Dempsey KO5 Liston)
Holyfield vs. Foreman (Foreman TKO4 Holyfield)
Holmes vs. Lewis (Holmes wins by points)
Tyson vs. Frazier (Frazier win by KO round 11)

Round 7:

Dempsey vs Lewis (Dempsey wins by KO round 10)
Holyfield vs. Frazier (Frazier wins by points decision)
Foreman vs. Tyson (Foreman KO6 Tyson)
Liston vs. Holmes (Holmes wins by points decision)

Round 8:

Dempsey vs. Tyson (Tyson wins by points decision)
Foreman vs. Liston (Foreman KO8 Liston)
Frazier vs. Lewis (Frazier wins by stoppage round 12)
Holmes vs. Holyfield (Holmes wins by points decision)

Round 9:

Dempsey vs. Holmes (Dempsey wins by stoppage round 10)
Foreman vs. Frazier (Foreman TKO3 Frazier)
Tyson vs. Holyfield (Holyfield wins by points decision)
Liston vs. Lewis (Lewis wins by points decision)

Round 10:

Dempsey vs. Foreman (Foreman TKO6 Dempsey)
Tyson vs. Liston (Tyson KO round 3)
Holmes vs. Frazier (Frazier KO round 12)
Holyfield vs. Lewis (Lewis wins by points decision)

Round 11:

Dempsey vs. Holyfield (Dempsey wins by points decision)
Tyson vs. Holmes (Tyson wins by KO round 10)
Foreman vs. Lewis (Foreman KO2 Lewis)
Liston vs. Frazier (Frazier KO round 9)

Round 12:

Dempsey vs. Frazier (Frazier wins by stoppage rouns 11)
Holyfield vs. Liston (Holyfield wins by points decision)
Tyson vs. Lewis (Tyson KO4 Lewis)
Holmes vs. Foreman (Foreman KO5 Holmes)

Round 13:

Dempsey vs. Liston (Dempsey wins by points decision)
Holyfield vs. Foreman (Foreman KO round 12)
Holmes vs. Lewis (Holmes wins points decision)
Tyson vs. Frazier (Tyson wins bt stoppage round 6)

Round 14:

Dempsey vs. Lewis (Dempsey KO8 Lewis)
Holyfield vs. Frazier (Frazier wins by stoppage round 5)
Foreman vs. Tyson (Foreman wins KO round 10)
Liston vs. Holmes (Holmes wins by points decision)

Just my predictions.

[Crease]

League Standings...

1. Foreman (14-0-0) 28 points
2. Dempsey (10-0-4) 20 points
2. Frazier (10-0-4) 20 points
4. Tyson (9-0-5) 18 points

5. Holmes (5-0-9) 10 points
6. Holyfield (4-0-10) 8 points
7. Lewis (2-0-12) 4 points
7. Holmes (2-0-12) 4 points


At the conclusion of the season-proper;
1 vs. 2, & 3 vs. 4.

The winner of 1-2 advances instantly to the Grand Final,
while the loser awaits Sudden Death against the winner of 3-4. The loser of 3-4 is ousted.

Preliminary Finals:

Foreman vs. Dempsey (Foreman wins by stoppage round 11)
Frazier vs. Tyson (Frazier wins by mixed decision)

Sudden Death:

Dempsey vs. Frazier (Frazier wins by KO round 10)

Grand Final:

Foreman vs. Frazier (Foreman wins by KO round 10)

Champion:
One of the hardest hitters ever to step into the roped square.
"Big" George Foreman.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Liston would never KO Foreman.

But Foreman would KO him everytime!

As a fellow Foreman die-hard, I hope you're right. I think you're wrong.

I specifically left out Ali & Louis because I'm sick of them. We all know how it would have went --- those two would make the Grand Final, hands down. Too predictable. As for the rest, I only wanted eight, as it's exhaustive with just that many --- can't have everyone.

[Crease]

As a fellow Foreman die-hard, I hope you're right. I think you're wrong.

I specifically left out Ali & Louis because I'm sick of them. We all know how it would have went --- those two would make the Grand Final, hands down. Too predictable. As for the rest, I only wanted eight, as it's exhaustive with just that many --- can't have everyone.

Man, Foreman is stronger and tougher than Liston...
Liston enjoyed a Heavyweight reign were the top contenders were each afraid of him... Patterson was terrified of him.

Foreman fought against the likes of Norton and especially Frazier, who convinced himself that he could KO Big George...

There's a reason why Foreman consistently ranks higher in peopls ALL-TIME rankings.

[Goodnight, Irene]

It's because Foreman accomplished far more, & is a popular figure in most peoples' real-time, personal memories.

Out of sight, out of mind. I rank Foreman higher than Liston all-time, because I could see either man winning a straight-up fight, but Foreman has a big advantage in career achievements. If I absolutely had to back someone head-to-head, I'd lean, reluctantly, with Liston.

[jezzamundo]

It's because Foreman accomplished far more, & is a popular figure in most peoples' real-time, personal memories.

Out of sight, out of mind. I rank Foreman higher than Liston all-time, because I could see either man winning a straight-up fight, but Foreman has a big advantage in career achievements. If I absolutely had to back someone head-to-head, I'd lean, reluctantly, with Liston.

Exactly what I think too, GI.

[dempseyfire]

As a fellow Foreman die-hard, I hope you're right. I think you're wrong.

I specifically left out Ali & Louis because I'm sick of them. We all know how it would have went --- those two would make the Grand Final, hands down. Too predictable. As for the rest, I only wanted eight, as it's exhaustive with just that many --- can't have everyone.

Man, Foreman is stronger and tougher than Liston...
Liston enjoyed a Heavyweight reign were the top contenders were each afraid of him... Patterson was terrified of him.

.

It's this type of stuff which has really permeated the popular lexicon but should be put away. The top guys Liston fought were not 'afraid' of him . . this is bullarky. Williams didn't fight Liston like he was afraid, Folley didn't, even Floyd fought his usual, aggressive fight. These guys were top professional fighters who fought tough guys for a living. They wern't suddenly knock-kneed by a guy with a mean stare.

It's like when people say . ."Tyson lost to Holyfield b/c he was the first guy to not be intimidated" . . .what a load of crap!!! Tyson lost to Evander b/c he boxed his pants off. Bruno (the first time), Tubbs, Thomas, Berbick, Tucker . . .all of those guys brought their A-game to fight Tyson, fighting with a conviction that they could beat him, and they were simply bested. In fact, only Smith and Spinks from his first reign were fighters who fought with what could be described as true fear of Tyson's power.

[Mr E]

As a fellow Foreman die-hard, I hope you're right. I think you're wrong.

I specifically left out Ali & Louis because I'm sick of them. We all know how it would have went --- those two would make the Grand Final, hands down. Too predictable. As for the rest, I only wanted eight, as it's exhaustive with just that many --- can't have everyone.

Man, Foreman is stronger and tougher than Liston...
Liston enjoyed a Heavyweight reign were the top contenders were each afraid of him... Patterson was terrified of him.

.

It's this type of stuff which has really permeated the popular lexicon but should be put away. The top guys Liston fought were not 'afraid' of him . . this is bullarky. Williams didn't fight Liston like he was afraid, Folley didn't, even Floyd fought his usual, aggressive fight. These guys were top professional fighters who fought tough guys for a living. They wern't suddenly knock-kneed by a guy with a mean stare.

It's like when people say . ."Tyson lost to Holyfield b/c he was the first guy to not be intimidated" . . .what a load of crap!!! Tyson lost to Evander b/c he boxed his pants off. Bruno (the first time), Tubbs, Thomas, Berbick, Tucker . . .all of those guys brought their A-game to fight Tyson, fighting with a conviction that they could beat him, and they were simply bested. In fact, only Smith and Spinks from his first reign were fighters who fought with what could be described as true fear of Tyson's power.

I doubt it was so much "fear" -- none of these guys was a physical coward, make no mistake about that -- but there seems to have been a lack of confidence in victory in some of the guys who fought Liston and Tyson before they were beaten that looks like it compromised their fights. Maybe it's more akin to choking or, if it was fear, then it was fear of losing, not fear of getting hurt, but there was something there. Not only Liston and Tyson.

Some famous fights in which, I think, the losers could/should have performed better had they approached the fight thinking they could win:

Joe Louis KO4 Max Baer
Sonny Liston KO1 Floyld Patterson (I)
Sonny Liston KO1 Floyd Patterson (II)
George Foreman TKO2 Ken Norton
Mike Tyson KO1 Michael Spinks

I don't think the loser could ever have won any of these fights but I do think they all could have put up more resistance had they, again, approached the fight with confidence.

[dempseyfire]

Man, Foreman is stronger and tougher than Liston...
Liston enjoyed a Heavyweight reign were the top contenders were each afraid of him... Patterson was terrified of him.

.

It's this type of stuff which has really permeated the popular lexicon but should be put away. The top guys Liston fought were not 'afraid' of him . . this is bullarky. Williams didn't fight Liston like he was afraid, Folley didn't, even Floyd fought his usual, aggressive fight. These guys were top professional fighters who fought tough guys for a living. They wern't suddenly knock-kneed by a guy with a mean stare.

It's like when people say . ."Tyson lost to Holyfield b/c he was the first guy to not be intimidated" . . .what a load of crap!!! Tyson lost to Evander b/c he boxed his pants off. Bruno (the first time), Tubbs, Thomas, Berbick, Tucker . . .all of those guys brought their A-game to fight Tyson, fighting with a conviction that they could beat him, and they were simply bested. In fact, only Smith and Spinks from his first reign were fighters who fought with what could be described as true fear of Tyson's power.

I doubt it was so much "fear" -- none of these guys was a physical coward, make no mistake about that -- but there seems to have been a lack of confidence in victory in some of the guys who fought Liston and Tyson before they were beaten that looks like it compromised their fights. Maybe it's more akin to choking or, if it was fear, than it was fear of losing, not fear of getting hurt, but there was something there. Not only Liston and Tyson.

Some famous fights in which, I think, the losers could/should have performed better had they approached the fight thinking they could win:

Joe Louis KO4 Max Baer
Sonny Liston KO1 Floyld Patterson (I)
Sonny Liston KO1 Floyd Patterson (II)
George Foreman TKO2 Ken Norton
Mike Tyson KO1 Michael Spinks

I don't think the loser could ever have won any of these fights but I do think they all could have put up more resistance had they, again, approached the fight with confidence.

I'm not sure about the Baer fight. Max doesn't really open up much vs Louis, but I've read he did enter the fight with an injured hand, which could have impeded his confidence.

Patterson not very confident vs Liston? Perhaps . . .his own trainer apparently said before the fights were made to avoid Sonny, so I would expect that would certainly lower a fighter's confidence.

Totally disagree about Norton-Foreman. People continually say Norton 'froze' vs George which is not true at all. The first round was fairly even with Norton doing an excellent job of counterpunching and picking his spots. He started the 2nd even stronger before George caught him with a monstrous uppercut. How was Norton afraid here? B/c he wasn't coming forward like he did vs Ali? He was simply fighting a smart gameplan . .Frazier showed you don't come straight forward into the George Foreman arsenal.

Agree about Spinks-Tyson. I actually think after winning the title vs Holmes, Spinks wasn't really interested in boxing anymore and was simply out to make some more money before he got out.

[Mr E]

It's this type of stuff which has really permeated the popular lexicon but should be put away. The top guys Liston fought were not 'afraid' of him . . this is bullarky. Williams didn't fight Liston like he was afraid, Folley didn't, even Floyd fought his usual, aggressive fight. These guys were top professional fighters who fought tough guys for a living. They wern't suddenly knock-kneed by a guy with a mean stare.

It's like when people say . ."Tyson lost to Holyfield b/c he was the first guy to not be intimidated" . . .what a load of crap!!! Tyson lost to Evander b/c he boxed his pants off. Bruno (the first time), Tubbs, Thomas, Berbick, Tucker . . .all of those guys brought their A-game to fight Tyson, fighting with a conviction that they could beat him, and they were simply bested. In fact, only Smith and Spinks from his first reign were fighters who fought with what could be described as true fear of Tyson's power.

I doubt it was so much "fear" -- none of these guys was a physical coward, make no mistake about that -- but there seems to have been a lack of confidence in victory in some of the guys who fought Liston and Tyson before they were beaten that looks like it compromised their fights. Maybe it's more akin to choking or, if it was fear, than it was fear of losing, not fear of getting hurt, but there was something there. Not only Liston and Tyson.

Some famous fights in which, I think, the losers could/should have performed better had they approached the fight thinking they could win:

Joe Louis KO4 Max Baer
Sonny Liston KO1 Floyld Patterson (I)
Sonny Liston KO1 Floyd Patterson (II)
George Foreman TKO2 Ken Norton
Mike Tyson KO1 Michael Spinks

I don't think the loser could ever have won any of these fights but I do think they all could have put up more resistance had they, again, approached the fight with confidence.

I'm not sure about the Baer fight. Max doesn't really open up much vs Louis, but I've read he did enter the fight with an injured hand, which could have impeded his confidence.

Patterson not very confident vs Liston? Perhaps . . .his own trainer apparently said before the fights were made to avoid Sonny, so I would expect that would certainly lower a fighter's confidence.

Totally disagree about Norton-Foreman. People continually say Norton 'froze' vs George which is not true at all. The first round was fairly even with Norton doing an excellent job of counterpunching and picking his spots. He started the 2nd even stronger before George caught him with a monstrous uppercut. How was Norton afraid here? B/c he wasn't coming forward like he did vs Ali? He was simply fighting a smart gameplan . .Frazier showed you don't come straight forward into the George Foreman arsenal.

Agree about Spinks-Tyson. I actually think after winning the title vs Holmes, Spinks wasn't really interested in boxing anymore and was simply out to make some more money before he got out.

Norton wasn't putting anything on his shots against Foreman, not planting his feet or commiting at all. Didn't look like he knew what he wanted to do, how he should approach it. He didn't Foreman anything to think about.

[Crease]

It's this type of stuff which has really permeated the popular lexicon but should be put away.

The top guys Liston fought were not 'afraid' of him...
even Floyd fought his usual, aggressive fight.

It's well documented that Patterson was afraid of Liston...
This is not me voicing my opinion, ( )
there's documented evidence from later interviews...

And yes, Bruno was intimated about fighting Tyson.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I disagree that Norton was afraid of Foreman. I think that's revisionism. Of course, seeing your friend massacred gives any man pause for thought (especially when that friend is the undefeated World Heavyweight champion), but exchanges between Foreman & Norton tell me the man was all about his gameplan (making Foreman load up, & countering, hard). He was also the Positive Thinker Of The Year award-winner...not exactly conducive to doubting yourself --- especially on the back of two terrific battles with Ali

It's quite possible, but I just think Norton fearing Foreman pre-fight is more revisionism than reality. The most obvious instance in a title fight, IMO, was Spinks against Tyson. To this day, I argue with people about whether or not Spinks could've arisen from the second knockdown. Look at his face, there's a perfect camera shot of it. His eyes spell pure, unadulterated terror.

Btw --- nice to see every man contesting the Tournament now has at least one vote

[yancey]

I disagree that Norton was afraid of Foreman. I think that's revisionism. Of course, seeing your friend massacred gives any man pause for thought (especially when that friend is the undefeated World Heavyweight champion), but exchanges between Foreman & Norton tell me the man was all about his gameplan (making Foreman load up, & countering, hard). He was also the Positive Thinker Of The Year award-winner...not exactly conducive to doubting yourself --- especially on the back of two terrific battles with Ali

It's quite possible, but I just think Norton fearing Foreman pre-fight is more revisionism than reality. The most obvious instance in a title fight, IMO, was Spinks against Tyson. To this day, I argue with people about whether or not Spinks could've arisen from the second knockdown. Look at his face, there's a perfect camera shot of it. His eyes spell pure, unadulterated terror.

Btw --- nice to see every man contesting the Tournament now has at least one vote

Yep, the Frazier vote is coming in late.

btw, I only recall one knockdown in Spinks-Tyson, but maybe I'm forgetting one. I read somewhere that Spinks was frozen with fear in the dressing room before the fight and Butch Lewis had to give him a pep talk to get him out there.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Spinks was down twice. He feigned incoherency on the second knockdown, stumbling into the ropes in apatently absurd display.

He was clear-headed. He laid his head on a platter.

[dempseyfire]

I doubt it was so much "fear" -- none of these guys was a physical coward, make no mistake about that -- but there seems to have been a lack of confidence in victory in some of the guys who fought Liston and Tyson before they were beaten that looks like it compromised their fights. Maybe it's more akin to choking or, if it was fear, than it was fear of losing, not fear of getting hurt, but there was something there. Not only Liston and Tyson.

Some famous fights in which, I think, the losers could/should have performed better had they approached the fight thinking they could win:

Joe Louis KO4 Max Baer
Sonny Liston KO1 Floyld Patterson (I)
Sonny Liston KO1 Floyd Patterson (II)
George Foreman TKO2 Ken Norton
Mike Tyson KO1 Michael Spinks

I don't think the loser could ever have won any of these fights but I do think they all could have put up more resistance had they, again, approached the fight with confidence.

I'm not sure about the Baer fight. Max doesn't really open up much vs Louis, but I've read he did enter the fight with an injured hand, which could have impeded his confidence.

Patterson not very confident vs Liston? Perhaps . . .his own trainer apparently said before the fights were made to avoid Sonny, so I would expect that would certainly lower a fighter's confidence.

Totally disagree about Norton-Foreman. People continually say Norton 'froze' vs George which is not true at all. The first round was fairly even with Norton doing an excellent job of counterpunching and picking his spots. He started the 2nd even stronger before George caught him with a monstrous uppercut. How was Norton afraid here? B/c he wasn't coming forward like he did vs Ali? He was simply fighting a smart gameplan . .Frazier showed you don't come straight forward into the George Foreman arsenal.

Agree about Spinks-Tyson. I actually think after winning the title vs Holmes, Spinks wasn't really interested in boxing anymore and was simply out to make some more money before he got out.

Norton wasn't putting anything on his shots against Foreman, not planting his feet or commiting at all. Didn't look like he knew what he wanted to do, how he should approach it. He didn't Foreman anything to think about.

In the Champions Forever dinner Norton talks about his gameplan vs Foreman. He says his plan was to essentially move Foreman around, let him load up on his shots and then he'd counter-punch and pick his spots, which is exactly how he fought the fight until the KO. I certainly don't think Ken was throwing soft punches vs George.

Here's the fight: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QDUx-YhvRo

[Ezzard]

Did the same here as I did for the MWs

My records after the leagues…

Liston 8-3-3
Foreman 7-6-1
Holmes 6-4-4
Holyfield 6-6-2
Lewis 5-7-2
Tyson 5-8-1
Frazier 4-6-4
Dempsey 4-6-4

[Mr E]

I'm not sure about the Baer fight. Max doesn't really open up much vs Louis, but I've read he did enter the fight with an injured hand, which could have impeded his confidence.

Patterson not very confident vs Liston? Perhaps . . .his own trainer apparently said before the fights were made to avoid Sonny, so I would expect that would certainly lower a fighter's confidence.

Totally disagree about Norton-Foreman. People continually say Norton 'froze' vs George which is not true at all. The first round was fairly even with Norton doing an excellent job of counterpunching and picking his spots. He started the 2nd even stronger before George caught him with a monstrous uppercut. How was Norton afraid here? B/c he wasn't coming forward like he did vs Ali? He was simply fighting a smart gameplan . .Frazier showed you don't come straight forward into the George Foreman arsenal.

Agree about Spinks-Tyson. I actually think after winning the title vs Holmes, Spinks wasn't really interested in boxing anymore and was simply out to make some more money before he got out.

Norton wasn't putting anything on his shots against Foreman, not planting his feet or commiting at all. Didn't look like he knew what he wanted to do, how he should approach it. He didn't Foreman anything to think about.

In the Champions Forever dinner Norton talks about his gameplan vs Foreman. He says his plan was to essentially move Foreman around, let him load up on his shots and then he'd counter-punch and pick his spots, which is exactly how he fought the fight until the KO. I certainly don't think Ken was throwing soft punches vs George.

Here's the fight: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QDUx-YhvRo

Wellllllllllllll.... Norton sure isn't going to say he had no idea what to do, right? I saw Champions Forever in the theater when it came out and I bought the video immediately thereafter. But I take a lot of what those guys said with a pretty hefty grain of salt.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that. I've seen Foreman-Norton many times and I don't see a guy with a gameplan. I see a guy who didn't think he could win.

[BoxBuzz]

I've heard his heart wasn't into it, though many rumors regarding fear of Foreman abound. Fear of Foreman was all the rage at that time. Literally a boxing cliche. So that will be the story that survives. Funny how perhaps the two most viscerally feared heavyweight fighters were both to meet the same fate via a pre and post prime Ali.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I've heard his heart wasn't into it, though many rumors regarding fear of Foreman abound. Fear of Foreman was all the rage at that time. Literally a boxing cliche. So that will be the story that survives. Funny how perhaps the two most viscerally feared heavyweight fighters were both to meet the same fate via a pre and post prime Ali.

...& that they would share a manager, a ring in sparring on occasion, &, according to one observer, this glorious (wouldn't you just love to have been there? Then again, maybe you'd have gotten frost-bite) conversation...

Liston: "God damn it, man, would you stop smacking that gum in my ear!?"

Foreman: "If you seen the way I whupped that German, you wouldn't talk to me like that."

The young Foreman was allegedly making reference to his Gold Medal-winning performance, which was, in fact, against a Russian.