Is Rocky Marciano A Top Five Heavyweight?

[ThatOne]

Please discuss

[Controversial]

It depends on how you are judging him.

Taking his achievements, he remained unbeaten, was world champion and beat some great fighters (albeit slightly faded ones imo). If you are judging that alone he is a top five fighter.

However if you are pitting other heavyweights against each other in hypothetical fights then I do not believe he is one of the 5 greatest heavyweights ever, he would struggle to beat several fighters.

Marciano was fortunate to fight in a fairly weak era in heavyweight boxing. It was post WW2 and many of the heavyweights were blown up light-heavyweights or getting on in age. He was lucky to get wins over LaStarza and Lowry and his record is padded out with some fairly average fighters and journeymen.

If Marciano was born 20 years later he wouldn't have remained unbeaten and possibly not even won a world title. Fighters like Ali, Lewis, Holyfield etc.... would have been successful in any era in heavyweight boxing, Marciano wouldn't have.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I wouldn't say he was, no. However, I do think he's more routinely under-rated than he is over-rated.

People love to rubbish his wins against Charles & Moore, citing age, but I absolutely will not accept from anyone that those are anything worse than A- Level victories. Ezzard Fvcking Charles. Think about that a moment. Most people don't. Most people should.

The other thing I think people overlook (& I apply this to all undefeated champs) is how difficult it is to remain unbeaten for the stretch --- both in fights & years --- which Marciano achieved. I'm over hearing about glib statements like, "the competition was garbage." Hey, you know what? That's true of a near-infinite number of champs through history. Instances in every era, every weightclass. Why are so few undefeated? It takes an awful lot, physically & mentally, to do what someone like Marciano did. To do it with his physical short-comings, in a division where there was no limit in weight or dimensions, is all the more commanding.

During the telecast of 2008's Joel Casamayor-Michael Katsidis title bout, Max Kellerman made mention of fighters who should really only be good turning out to be great. Fighters like Manny Pacquiao. Like Felix Trinidad. These guys are greater than the sum of their individual parts. Marciano is one of the foremost examples in Boxing history --- fvcking period. He did great things against a backdrop of great limitations, & I wouldn't at all be surprised if he left a few sheepish faces on the people who so readily write him off in Mythical Match-ups.

I don't believe the man's top five, no. However, I wouldn't consider it a crime to rank him within that category, & I think, no matter what you imagine him to be, his victory should be in discussions like this ---a fighter who exceeded his limits to such an extent, people would one day discuss the merits of him being a top-five all-time Heavyweight champion &, in truth, legend.

[BoxBuzz]

He was one of the top five SMARTEST Heavyweights. But put him in a tournament and let the best do a rather complete set of round robin's? I have to doubt that he ends up in the top five. Unless he does the smart thing and gets out of it early and undefeated.

In that case his fans will make the case through out history that indeed he was.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I don't think he makes the grade in that context, but I think he may go closer to doing so than we sometimes imagine.

[ThatOne]

I don't think he makes the grade in that context, but I think he may go closer to doing so than we sometimes imagine.

I respect Rock but I can think of lots of 60's , 70's and 80's fighters who would be at leaast even money against the Rock.

I can't do that with Louis, Holmes, Foreman, Ali, and Jack Johnson.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Marciano was an underdog against people all his career. He still won. Most of these matches would be more than small step-ups, but I think he stands a strong chance of doing better than you (most?) believe. He's still the underdog against most of the top ten, but he's a live underdog against several, IMO.

Here are the guys conceivably ranked in the top ten of all-time I would give Marciano anywhere between a 40 & 60% chance of victory against...


Muhammad Ali
Jack Dempsey
Joe Frazier
Evander Holyfield
Jim Jeffries
Jack Johnson
Gene Tunney

[Crease]

Rocky Marciano is a top 5 fighter in my opinion...

In regards that he was the undefated heavyweight world champion.

AND, his quality of opposition.

[Ezzard]

I don't think he is top 5. I think being a small HW really hurts him when half his game was wearing down an opponent. It's hard to imagine a guy giving away speed and 30+ lbs. He's definitely a great though

[Controversial]

I don't think he is top 5. I think being a small HW really hurts him when half his game was wearing down an opponent. It's hard to imagine a guy giving away speed and 30+ lbs. He's definitely a great though

I agree. His size wasn't an issue when he was fighting, most of his opponents weren't much bigger than him. However to give 3 stone away to a decent fighter is hard in anyone's book. I've heard people say that if Marciano was about today he would be 15 stone with modern training methods, but personally I can't see that. He was too short, short arms and he was not particularly broad, even if he could add 2 stone it would affect his stamina and punch output, the very two things that made him such a dangerous fighter.

People forget that he would be one stone UNDER today's cruiserweight limit, sort of gives you an idea of how small he was.

[Uppercut1]

Top 10, yes. Top 5, No.

[HomicideHenry]

Marciano can be rated no higher than #3 and no lower than #10. Simple as that. Many of the old-timers listed Louis and Marciano as the top 2 heavyweights (LaMotta, Saddler, Frazier, etc). Many of the critics today rate him as the #6 HW (Bert Sugar). For me, I believe it is possible for Marciano to defeat #1 and #2 rated Ali and Louis. Marciano gets knocked for fighting old men, but 5 of his 6 title defenses were against the #1 rated HW's of the time, Don Cockell was #2 when he fought Marciano. He did what was asked and required of a champion, to remain champion until he couldn't do it no more.

[yancey]

Marciano was an underdog against people all his career. He still won. Most of these matches would be more than small step-ups, but I think he stands a strong chance of doing better than you (most?) believe. He's still the underdog against most of the top ten, but he's a live underdog against several, IMO.

Here are the guys conceivably ranked in the top ten of all-time I would give Marciano anywhere between a 40 & 60% chance of victory against...


Muhammad Ali
Jack Dempsey
Joe Frazier
Evander Holyfield
Jim Jeffries
Jack Johnson
Gene Tunney

If only I could take these guys and you take Rocky, I could finally retire.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Didn't say I was gonna make him a betting favourite against them all, did I? I know you don't wanna believe it, Yance, but there just ain't much in it between your boy, Frazier, & Marciano.

Not much at all.

[yancey]

Didn't say I was gonna make him a betting favourite against them all, did I? I know you don't wanna believe it, Yance, but there just ain't much in it between your boy, Frazier, & Marciano.

Not much at all.

No, but to give Rock a 4 in 10 chance against some of those names is a real stretch.

And to give him close to a 6 in 10 chance against any of the remaining names would get you broke in the long run.

I have no problem with Frazier and Marciano being relatively close. Small edges here and there in different categories would lead to a Frazier victory by attrition in oh, say roughly 65% of the time.

[Brutu]

The Rock pulvuerizes em all.
and Larry Holmes aint fit enough to do his laundry and wash the Rock's week supply of dirty gym socks,and sweat drenched underwear.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Didn't say I was gonna make him a betting favourite against them all, did I? I know you don't wanna believe it, Yance, but there just ain't much in it between your boy, Frazier, & Marciano.

Not much at all.

No, but to give Rock a 4 in 10 chance against some of those names is a real stretch.

And to give him close to a 6 in 10 chance against any of the remaining names would get you broke in the long run.

I have no problem with Frazier and Marciano being relatively close. Small edges here and there in different categories would lead to a Frazier victory by attrition in oh, say roughly 65% of the time.

Well, you might think so. I happen to think your vision of Foreman-Frazier is the definition of insanity, but, everyone's different...

[yancey]

Didn't say I was gonna make him a betting favourite against them all, did I? I know you don't wanna believe it, Yance, but there just ain't much in it between your boy, Frazier, & Marciano.

Not much at all.

No, but to give Rock a 4 in 10 chance against some of those names is a real stretch.

And to give him close to a 6 in 10 chance against any of the remaining names would get you broke in the long run.

I have no problem with Frazier and Marciano being relatively close. Small edges here and there in different categories would lead to a Frazier victory by attrition in oh, say roughly 65% of the time.

Well, you might think so. I happen to think you're vision of Foreman-Frazier in the definition of insanity, but, everyone's different...

Open your mind, bud.

Not insane at all to see the possibility of an absolutely prime Frazier surviving those extremely dangerous first few rounds with GF, slowly gaining the upper hand and ultimately prevailing via attrition.

To do this, Frazier HAS to get inside and stay inside GF's punching radius, which he was unable to do in Jamaica, at least partly because of GF's pushing tactics.

If you come back with the black/white, 2 GF wins, that's all you need to know simplicity, please keep in mind that the second Foreman-Frazier fight featured a totally shot, swan song Frazier. I don't even consider that fight in thinking about GF/JF.

I have also consistently said that I would never bet the '68-'70 Frazier at even money over '73 GF, but I do think he would have viable prospects to come through and win.

[ThatOne]

Styles make fights.


I have Joe in my top five. But if Foreman fought him one hundred times he would have beat him one hundred time. It's a horrible, horrible, horrible matchup.

Cus D'amato was right when he said that no small swarmer is ever going to beat George.

I like Joe in most mythical matchups but not this one.

Oh, Foreman destroys Rocky. If the ref has a s slow whistle he might literally go Ivan Drago on him.

As an aside look at the rematch. Granted Frazier was older (32) but he looked like a fish out of water using lateral movement instead of just coming at George; bobbing and weavimg.

He could only fight one style and that style was suicide against Foreman. However against most other fighters it's brilliantly effective.

[yancey]

I don't think he is top 5. I think being a small HW really hurts him when half his game was wearing down an opponent. It's hard to imagine a guy giving away speed and 30+ lbs. He's definitely a great though

I agree. His size wasn't an issue when he was fighting, most of his opponents weren't much bigger than him. However to give 3 stone away to a decent fighter is hard in anyone's book. I've heard people say that if Marciano was about today he would be 15 stone with modern training methods, but personally I can't see that. He was too short, short arms and he was not particularly broad, even if he could add 2 stone it would affect his stamina and punch output, the very two things that made him such a dangerous fighter.

People forget that he would be one stone UNDER today's cruiserweight limit, sort of gives you an idea of how small he was.

Agreed.

Rock would be somewhere outside of the top 10 for me.

[yancey]

Styles make fights.


I have Joe in my top five. But if Foreman fought him one hundred times he would have beat him one hundred time. It's a horrible, horrible, horrible matchup.

Cus D'amato was right when he said that no small swarmer is ever going to beat George.

I like Joe in most mythical matchups but not this one.

Oh, Foreman destroys Rocky. If the ref has a s slow whistle he might literally go Ivan Drago on him.

As an aside look at the rematch. Granted Frazier was older (32) but he looked like a fish out of water using lateral movement instead of just coming at George; bobbing and weavimg.

He could only fight one style and that style was suicide against Foreman. However against most other fighters it's brilliantly effective.

Frazier was 32 going on 55 in the rematch. I don't even consider that fight, but agree with the "fish out of water" analogy.

Also agree that Frazier has only one way to fight....that is why he must get inside and stay inside GF's punching radius.

You can't see the possibility of JF getting inside and staying there and slowly wearing GF down with the body shots? To me, this whole thing is about JF getting it to round 3 or 4 in decent shape. Then the tide could well turn.

[gregor]

People forget that he would be one stone UNDER today's cruiserweight limit, sort of gives you an idea of how small he was.

With most of the fighters dehydrating ~10 pounds before the fight (some even more), he would easily make LHW.

Anyway, I agree with Controversial that placing Marziano in top5 depends if you do it based on achievements or on (mostly hypothetical) H2H matches. As I prefer judging fighters on real achievements, and not on "what if he met Holmes/Ali/Foreman and lost", I have no problem with him being in top5.

[Goodnight, Irene]

"Open your mind, bud.

Not insane at all to see the possibility of an absolutely prime Frazier surviving those extremely dangerous first few rounds with GF, slowly gaining the upper hand and ultimately prevailing via attrition.

To do this, Frazier HAS to get inside and stay inside GF's punching radius, which he was unable to do in Jamaica, at least partly because of GF's pushing tactics.

If you come back with the black/white, 2 GF wins, that's all you need to know simplicity, please keep in mind that the second Foreman-Frazier fight featured a totally shot, swan song Frazier. I don't even consider that fight in thinking about GF/JF.

I have also consistently said that I would never bet the '68-'70 Frazier at even money over '73 GF, but I do think he would have viable prospects to come through and win." - Yancey

All this, but you draw the line at Marciano having between a 40-60% chance against someone like Dempsey? Someone like Holyfield?

[ThatOne]

Fighters I think beat Rocky in mythical match ups

Muhammad Ali

George Foreman

Lennox Lewis

Evander Holyfield

Larry Holmes

Joe Frazier

Gene Tunney

[dempseyfire]

I would place BIG money on Marciano beating Holyfield. Marciano was much better than a past-it Tyson . . .