Evander Holyfiel d V

[ThatOne]

Gene Tunney

Max Baer

Joe Louis

Rocky Marciano

Floyd Patterson

Sonny Liston

Joe Frazier

George Foreman

Muhammad Ali

Larry Holmes (Prime)

IMHO, he goes 3-7

[Goodnight, Irene]

Deciding on Holyfield-Tunney & Holyfield-Liston =

Holyfield TKO12 Baer

Louis TKO8 Holyfield

Marciano TKO14 Holyfield

Holyfield TKO9 Patterson

Frazier TKO13 Holyfield

Foreman TKO5 Holyfield

Ali UD15 Holyfield

Holmes UD15 Holyfield

It's just too difficult with Tunney & Liston. I could pick anyone, on any day. He'd also have very good chances against Marciano & Frazier --- better still, over twelve rounds --- fights I ultimately had him losing. I can't see him losing to Patterson or Baer, & nor do I think his chances would be any better than merely fair against Foreman, Louis, Ali & Holmes.

[ThatOne]

I had him losing to everyone on that list but Marciano. Liston, and Baer.

[yancey]

I had him losing to everyone on that list but Marciano. Liston, and Baer.

You have Holyfield losing to Patterson?

I have Holyfield losing to Louis, Foreman, Frazier, Ali, and Holmes.

Liston-Holyfield is tough, but I see Evander pulling it out on greater heart.

Everything is based on 15 rounds, the true championship distance.

[dempseyfire]

Holyfield would never stop Baer.

My picks:

Holyfield UD Baer

Louis TKO7 Holyfield

Marciano TKO13 Holyfield

Holyfield SD Patterson

Frazier TKO10 Holyfield

Foreman TKO4 Holyfield

Ali UD Holyfield

Holmes UD Holyfield

Liston TKO7 Holyfield

[Goodnight, Irene]

Here's another, incidentally, I would class in the category. Prime-for-prime, Lewis vs. Holyfield. I'd ever-so-slightly lean toward Holyfield in that one.

[gregor]

Here's another, incidentally, I would class in the category. Prime-for-prime, Lewis vs. Holyfield. I'd ever-so-slightly lean toward Holyfield in that one.

I do not think it is that difficult. Based on what Holy showed in rematch (past prime Holy against arguably prime Lewis, and Holy almost did it) I have no problem in chosing him as (slight) favourite in this one.

I would favour him over Marziano though, especially if we are talking prime Holy and not the one who had a night off (and he had many, that is true). Holy from Bowe I would be too green and happy to go into exchanges, but the one from Tyson fight I feel would give Marziano everything he could handle and can get a decision here.

He loses to Holmes and Foreman... and probably to Ali as well, although in this case styles makes fights (not that Ali fought someone who was similar to Holy and had problems, so this is just my feeling).

[Goodnight, Irene]

You can't just say, "Well, Holyfield ran him real close when he was past it, & Lewis was in his prime," because that completely ignores the first fight, in which Lewis absolutely made laughing-stock material of him.

Of course, Holyfield was past-it. Still, it happened, & the second fight doesn't erase it. It merely helps the case Holyfield, had he been younger, would've won that second fight. It's not so easy to say that of their first meet.

[dempseyfire]

I think a peak Holyfield beats Lewis rather comfortably.

1) Evander was well past his best in 1999. Yes in retropsect since he's fighting at 65 today it seems like a close to peak Evander, but Holyfield left his prime after the Bowe rematch and after Tyson II took another dive in overall response time/activity.

2) The first Lewis fight wasn't a blowout by Lennox . . it was overall a tame, awfully boring fight with lots of rounds decided by 4-5 punches landed. I had Lewis winning 7-5 which is actually rather close . . .8-4 would be reasonable too, but not by more than that.
I had EVander pulling out a narrow one point win in their rematch.
Holyfield's reflexes and punch output were at SUCH a higher level circa 1991, I don't see Lewis keeping up with it.

[Ezzard]

I'd back Holy over Lewis but not comfortably.

Problem is that Holy was very inconsistent and it's hard to gauge him. One moment I'm ready to believe he can beat Holmes and then I remember some of the poorer showings...

[Goodnight, Irene]

I think a peak Holyfield beats Lewis rather comfortably.

1) Evander was well past his best in 1999. Yes in retropsect since he's fighting at 65 today it seems like a close to peak Evander, but Holyfield left his prime after the Bowe rematch and after Tyson II took another dive in overall response time/activity.

2) The first Lewis fight wasn't a blowout by Lennox . . it was overall a tame, awfully boring fight with lots of rounds decided by 4-5 punches landed. I had Lewis winning 7-5 which is actually rather close . . .8-4 would be reasonable too, but not by more than that.
I had EVander pulling out a narrow one point win in their rematch.
Holyfield's reflexes and punch output were at SUCH a higher level circa 1991, I don't see Lewis keeping up with it.

Admittedly, it's been a long time since I sat down with it, but I had Lewis completely white-washing Holyfield in their first encounter...something like 10-2, 118-110 or 10-1-1, 119-109. I had it nowhere close to 7-5, 115-113, & I did score the return fight narrowly for Lewis. Ezz is right about something, too --- Holyfield was a whole lot less consistent than Lewis, when each were at their peak.

I agree with you that Holyfield wins it on activity & output, but he's never, ever gonna have it easy against a safety-first, 6'5", 245lber throwing thirty (of the best at Heavyweight in the last fifteen years) jabs a round * dropping the occasional huge right hand, all the while clinching & leaning on him. I give Holyfield only the slightest of edges head-to-head.

[dempseyfire]

I think a peak Holyfield beats Lewis rather comfortably.

1) Evander was well past his best in 1999. Yes in retropsect since he's fighting at 65 today it seems like a close to peak Evander, but Holyfield left his prime after the Bowe rematch and after Tyson II took another dive in overall response time/activity.

2) The first Lewis fight wasn't a blowout by Lennox . . it was overall a tame, awfully boring fight with lots of rounds decided by 4-5 punches landed. I had Lewis winning 7-5 which is actually rather close . . .8-4 would be reasonable too, but not by more than that.
I had EVander pulling out a narrow one point win in their rematch.
Holyfield's reflexes and punch output were at SUCH a higher level circa 1991, I don't see Lewis keeping up with it.

Admittedly, it's been a long time since I sat down with it, but I had Lewis completely white-washing Holyfield in their first encounter...something like 10-2, 118-110 or 10-1-1, 119-109. I had it nowhere close to 7-5, 115-113, & I did score the return fight narrowly for Lewis. Ezz is right about something, too --- Holyfield was a whole lot less consistent than Lewis, when each were at their peak.

I agree with you that Holyfield wins it on activity & output, but he's never, ever gonna have it easy against a safety-first, 6'5", 245lber throwing thirty (of the best at Heavyweight in the last fifteen years) jabs a round * dropping the occasional huge right hand, all the while clinching & leaning on him. I give Holyfield only the slightest of edges head-to-head.

I'm less impressed with Lewis's jab then you are. He often pawed with it and fired it 'at' his opponent rather than committing 'through' with the punch. One reason why he was outjabbed by Mercer and Bruno, who wern't as big or fast as Lewis but had good timing and threw consistent stiff left jabs.

[jezzamundo]

Gene Tunney UD15 Evander Holyfield - Could go either way

Evander Holyfield UD15 Max Baer - Baer could drop Holyfield, but I'd pick Evander every time

Joe Louis TKO8 Evander Holyfield - Can't see Holyfield winning this one

Rocky Marciano TKO13 Evander Holyfield - If Holyfield goes the distance, I think he gets the decision

Evander Holyfield TKO9 Floyd Patterson - Floyd might make the distance but goes down at least once

Sonny Liston UD15 Evander Holyfield - I could see Holyfield taking this on points, he wins at least 1 of 3

Joe Frazier UD15 Evander Holyfield - Close and competitive fight but Joe's workrate is too much

George Foreman TKO6 Evander Holyfield - If Holyfield gets through the middle rounds I think he wins on points

Muhammad Ali UD15 Evander Holyfield - Relatively lopsided decision

Larry Holmes UD15 Evander Holyfield - Close on the scorecards, Holyfield might win one of three

So, I've got Holyfield going 2-8 with these men, but for all of the close ones I've gone against him - it could easily be 6-4

[meade95]

A prime Holyfield's chin and recouperative powers are being greatly under apprecatied here, IMO. The guy took bombs from much bigger men and only Bowe knocked him down (after Holyfield walked completey into a Bowe left hook Forearm seconds before).

With that said, a prime Holyfield had the hand speed, counter punching, pressure, chin, respectable power, stamina and heart enough to do much better than what I see people saying.

Styles make fights.....

Holyfield TKO 12th Vs Gene Tunney

Holyfield UD Vs Max Baer

Joe Louis UD Vs Holyfield

Holyfield TKO 9th Vs Rocky Marciano

Holyfield UD Vs Floyd Patterson

Holyfiled TKO 9th VS Sonny Liston

Holyfield MD VS Joe Frazier

Holfield UD Vs George Foreman

Muhammad Ali UD VS Holyfield

Larry Holmes (Prime) UD Vs Holyfield (have since changed my mind) Style wise Holmes would give Holy problems....the jab especially....but I think a prime Holyfield puts enough pressure on Holmes and guts out a close Dec......as the fights turns to the inside over the second half of the fight....Holyfield takes over...

[Grimm]

A prime Holyfield's chin and recouperative powers are being greatly under apprecatied here, IMO. The guy took bombs from much bigger men and only Bowe knocked him down (after Holyfield walked completey into a Bowe left hook Forearm seconds before).

With that said, a prime Holyfield had the hand speed, counter punching, pressure, chin, respectable power, stamina and heart enough to do much better than what I see people saying.

Styles make fights.....

Holyfield TKO 12th Vs Gene Tunney

Holyfield UD Vs Max Baer

Joe Louis UD Vs Holyfield

Holyfield TKO 9th Vs Rocky Marciano

Holyfield UD Vs Floyd Patterson

Holyfiled TKO 9th VS Sonny Liston

Holyfield MD VS Joe Frazier

Holfield UD Vs George Foreman

Muhammad Ali UD VS Holyfield

Larry Holmes (Prime) UD Vs Holyfield

I could see this

[dempseyfire]

Holyfield never comes close to stopping Liston nor beating Frazier. In fact Evander would have hell with Liston and Frazier victims such as Quarry, Folley, Machen, Ellis and Mathis. I like Evander a lot but the guy had to pull out all the stops to beat an old Dokes and Alex Stewart for crying out loud, and this thread is putting him with the best of the best all time.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I can see him maybe stopping Liston late-on in a fight. It's difficult to imagine that one. Either man can get the other, IMO. Holyfield would have serious, serious problems with Liston's jab.

The one which stands out to me is Holyfield stopping Tunney. No way, no Sir, no how

[dberry]

I like this thread as I believe the Holyfield/Tyson/L.Lewis/Bowe/Ruddick/Moorer etc.etc. era was the greatest heavyweight era, although I'm only old enough to remember the tail end of the Ali era.

One thing to take into account is size, Liston for example was really a light heavy who didn't have to try and make weight. A lot of people I have trained with, and I'm sure this question comes up with you guys, hypothesise who would win out of Ali and Tyson (for the record I think Ali), well if Holyfield and Tyson fought a hundred times, I think Holyfield would almost always win.

Taking this into account, I believe Holyfield(in his prime on, his best day) is in the hunt with most but is too strong and too good for Patterson and Liston, and probably too much for Rocky and the brown bomber.

What if you take Holy field out of the question and replace him with Lennox Lewis?

Great thread, I feel like I'm in a barber shop in an Eddie Murphy Movie.

[dempseyfire]

I like this thread as I believe the Holyfield/Tyson/L.Lewis/Bowe/Ruddick/Moorer etc.etc. era was the greatest heavyweight era, although I'm only old enough to remember the tail end of the Ali era.

One thing to take into account is size, Liston for example was really a light heavy who didn't have to try and make weight. .

What on earth are you talking about? Liston was a BIG natural heavyweight who trained his ass off to get to a svelte 210 lbs. He would've died if he'd gotten down to 175. Back then the wide majority of elite heavyweights trained to get as lean as possible while retaining strength to maxmized speed and stamina. By far the bigger man than Evander who had to undergoe extensive diet and strength programs to get above 200 lbs. Holyfield actually walking around outside of training camp TODAY in his 40s only weighs about 200 lbs.

[meade95]

Holyfield never comes close to stopping Liston nor beating Frazier. In fact Evander would have hell with Liston and Frazier victims such as Quarry, Folley, Machen, Ellis and Mathis. I like Evander a lot but the guy had to pull out all the stops to beat an old Dokes and Alex Stewart for crying out loud, and this thread is putting him with the best of the best all time.

I'm a big fan of Fraizer.....Start with that..... With that said, I think Holyfield had the better left hook. Threw it better, more precise and got from point A to point B a tad quicker... The old adage you don't hook with a hooker would play out over and over again if Holy Vs Frazier ever happened..... I'd put my money on Holyfield wearing him down... Holyfield had the better chin and was without a doubt stronger than Frazier (did not hit as hard shot for shot...no....but he would be physically stonger than Frazier and would be able to move him in the ring)...... Both have tons of heart and Frazier had a motor no doubt..... Great, brutal fight...... I see Holy by close dec or late TKO

[dempseyfire]

Holyfield never comes close to stopping Liston nor beating Frazier. In fact Evander would have hell with Liston and Frazier victims such as Quarry, Folley, Machen, Ellis and Mathis. I like Evander a lot but the guy had to pull out all the stops to beat an old Dokes and Alex Stewart for crying out loud, and this thread is putting him with the best of the best all time.

I think Holyfield had the better left hook. Threw it better, more precise and got from point A to point B a tad quicker.O

I'll just say I STRONGLY disagree with this assertion. Frazier's left hook was just as precise, just as fast, and much MUCH harder. If Evander wants to hook with Frazier he will be on the losing end of that battle.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I like this thread as I believe the Holyfield/Tyson/L.Lewis/Bowe/Ruddick/Moorer etc.etc. era was the greatest heavyweight era, although I'm only old enough to remember the tail end of the Ali era.

One thing to take into account is size, Liston for example was really a light heavy who didn't have to try and make weight. A lot of people I have trained with, and I'm sure this question comes up with you guys, hypothesise who would win out of Ali and Tyson (for the record I think Ali), well if Holyfield and Tyson fought a hundred times, I think Holyfield would almost always win.

Taking this into account, I believe Holyfield(in his prime on, his best day) is in the hunt with most but is too strong and too good for Patterson and Liston, and probably too much for Rocky and the brown bomber.

What if you take Holy field out of the question and replace him with Lennox Lewis?

Great thread, I feel like I'm in a barber shop in an Eddie Murphy Movie.

Honestly, I can't see how you could possibly envision Liston as being even able to make --- much less, being a natural at --- 175lbs!? Please elucidate on how you could come to that conclusion.

I have to say, I think Louis is the worst possible match-up for Holyfield out of these opponents. You just can't avail yourself to getting hit as frequently as Holyfield does & expect to beat Louis --- without trying to sound glib, it really is that simple. Then, too, Holyfield really doesn't do anything Louis hasn't seen before. Louis has broken guys with as much heart (Galento, Carnera), parried & counter-punched against similar combo-throwers (Pastor, Farr), cracked tougher chins (Galento, Godoy), seen faster hands (Conn, Walcott), & fought for extended periods against guys with superior endurance (Farr, Walcott).

True enough, Holyfield mixes it all, & brings it when he fights. However, you know at some point he's going to enter the trenches for a slugfest. He'd never survive a firefight with Louis' precision & hitting power cutting into his pourous defense.

BTW --- nice comparison with the Barber Shop comment

[meade95]

Holyfield never comes close to stopping Liston nor beating Frazier. In fact Evander would have hell with Liston and Frazier victims such as Quarry, Folley, Machen, Ellis and Mathis. I like Evander a lot but the guy had to pull out all the stops to beat an old Dokes and Alex Stewart for crying out loud, and this thread is putting him with the best of the best all time.

I think Holyfield had the better left hook. Threw it better, more precise and got from point A to point B a tad quicker.O

I'll just say I STRONGLY disagree with this assertion. Frazier's left hook was just as precise, just as fast, and much MUCH harder. If Evander wants to hook with Frazier he will be on the losing end of that battle.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one - I was just watching some of Frazier's old fights a couple weeks ago - Love his motor.....but I think he went wide with his hook, often.......and while he hit harder shot for shot (meaning he loaded up more often with it)......Evander's hook had more than enough pop to stop Frazier....and when Holy sat down on the hook in an exchange he brought it.....Evander hooked off the jab better...and cleaned up combinations better off the hook as well.....IMO.

Evander wouldn't have a fight plan that relied on his hook alone...he had more offensive assets than did Frazier, combination punching, better jab, physically stronger and a chin to stand and trade....and that is where he beats fraizer...during exchanges Holy's hook would get there first more often than not....

[Goodnight, Irene]

"I'm a big fan of Fraizer.....Start with that..... With that said, I think Holyfield had the better left hook. Threw it better, more precise and got from point A to point B a tad quicker... The old adage you don't hook with a hooker would play out over and over again if Holy Vs Frazier ever happened..... I'd put my money on Holyfield wearing him down... Holyfield had the better chin and was without a doubt stronger than Frazier (did not hit as hard shot for shot...no....but he would be physically stonger than Frazier and would be able to move him in the ring)...... Both have tons of heart and Frazier had a motor no doubt..... Great, brutal fight...... I see Holy by close dec or late TKO" - Meade95

Over twelve rounds (not fifteen), I could see Holyfield beating Frazier. I wouldn't bet that way, but it's plausible. However, irrespective of the distance, never, ever, ever can I see Holyfield, "wearing down" Frazier. That just isn't going to happen. Never letting up for a minute, & taking more punishment against generally better opposition, Frazier almost never slowed down over fifteen rounds, throwing all the way. At the same time, over twelve, Holyfield's work-rate was noticeably less than Frazier's, he wasn't absorbing quite as much in return, &, on top of that, he took rounds off here & there --- & still looked more tired than Frazier in their hardest respective bouts.

If anyone's getting tired, it ain't gonna be Frazier. It's why I back him to actually stop an exhausted Holyfield, very late-on, in a fifteen-rounder. Over twelve, I think Frazier nicks a very close decision.

[Goodnight, Irene]

"We'll have to agree to disagree on this one - I was just watching some of Frazier's old fights a couple weeks ago - Love his motor.....but I think he went wide with his hook, often.......and while he hit harder shot for shot (meaning he loaded up more often with it)......Evander's hook had more than enough pop to stop Frazier....and when Holy sat down on the hook in an exchange he brought it.....Evander hooked off the jab better...and cleaned up combinations better off the hook as well.....IMO.

Evander wouldn't have a fight plan that relied on his hook alone...he had more offensive assets than did Frazier, combination punching, better jab, physically stronger and a chin to stand and trade....and that is where he beats fraizer...during exchanges Holy's hook would get there first more often than not...." - Meade95

Where I'll agree with you is that Holyfield's hook was, for mine, technically the superior punch. It was a little (not a lot, but noticeably, nonetheless) shorter, maybe faster, & less predictable overall --- you could always see Frazier's hook preceded by rapid up-&-down bobbing (watch for it yourself, it's particularly noticeable in the third fight with Ali). Of course, Holyfield's hook wasn't, for mine, close to as brutally damaging as Frazier's, so it loses a little ground there. By & large, I take your point, though.

Where I'll disagree is that Holyfield can stand & trade, indefinitely, with Frazier. The reason is the bodyattack. Bowe showed what a consistent, hardened assault to the ribs can do to Holyfield, whose ribs don't equal his chin, for mine. The guy tired when faced with a man who could really work his mid-section --- no Heavyweight in history did it better, in my view, than Frazier. Holyfield loses a brawl in the long run. He'd look flashy earlier, & better at times, but, down the stretch, I can't see him, "out-punching" Frazier.