Fights Where The Winners Deserve More Credit

[granberry]

The two that come to mind for me are Frankie Randall-JC Chavez and Vilomar Fernandez-Alexis Arguello.

Vilomar Fernandez made Arguello look bad.

[Ezzard]

Schmeling-Louis I

Max beats arguably the greatest ever HW but people don't even rank the guy in their top 20.

[granberry]

Schmeling-Louis I

Max beats arguably the greatest ever HW but people don't even rank the guy in their top 20.

Nat Fleischer did.

[Ezzard]

Schmeling-Louis I

Max beats arguably the greatest ever HW but people don't even rank the guy in their top 20.

Nat Fleischer did.

I believe Nat was more qualified than most.

Unfortunately guys like Schmeling just aren't fashionable these days.

[granberry]

Schmeling-Louis I

Max beats arguably the greatest ever HW but people don't even rank the guy in their top 20.

Nat Fleischer did.

I believe Nat was more qualified than most.

Unfortunately guys like Schmeling just aren't fashionable these days.

What does fashionable have to do with boxing?

ANSWER: Nothing

Unless 'boxing' has been taken over by the effeminate crowd.

[Ezzard]

You know how it happens... Certain fighters have an appeal that makes money, generates column inches...

[Ezzard]

How about Cerdan's wins over Abrams and Williams?

[granberry]

How about Cerdan's wins over Abrams and Williams?

I think he was given credit for those.

By New York people I know who saw those fights.

LaMotta is usually not given enough credit for his win over Cerdan.
He was just too strong for Cerdan.
And he was going all out since it was his chance at the title.

[Ezzard]

How about Cerdan's wins over Abrams and Williams?

I think he was given credit for those.

By New York people I know who saw those fights.

LaMotta is usually not given enough credit for his win over Cerdan.
He was just too strong for Cerdan.
And he was going all out since it was his chance at the title.

I ask a lot of people who I meet, who lived through this era, who would have won the rematch. I think people today, looking back, don't appreciate the esteem Cerdan was held in by boxing people.

I think Jake was underrated for a long time because of his fix. But I believe these days he gets his fair shake.

I watched the final fight with Robinson the other night. La Motta puts out that amazing body attack and seems to have turned the fight. Next round though it's Jake who is done. I asked on here a while back for people's thoughts. jaclem thought that Jake may have been having problems making the weight.

[Goodnight, Irene]

For mine, the best instance listed so far is Benitez-Duran.

People love to ostracise Benitez as some sort of sub-standard outsider to the so-called, "Fab Four," & this bout is the slap in the face they don't want to acknowledge.

[Ezzard]

For mine, the best instance listed so far is Benitez-Duran.

People love to ostracise Benitez as some sort of sub-standard outsider to the so-called, "Fab Four," & this bout is the slap in the face they don't want to acknowledge.

How about Kirkland Laing?

[Goodnight, Irene]

Pretty solid choice, as well. Another fight for which the (oft-overrated, in my view) Duran gets not so much a free-pass, as a, "It never fucken happened" from the members on various boards who grew up with their Panamanian idol.

Two I am loathe to mention, since the winner is a total pudendum, but, one shouldn't under-estimate what it took, at that stage of his career, for Fernando Vargas to best, consecutively, Ronald Wright (who would not lose again for nearly ten years) & Ike Quartey (whose last outing was perhaps his career-best). Too much focus on the losses to Trinidad & De La Hoya. Those displays deserve more --- but I'm glad they don't get it. Vargas was trash

[granberry]

LaMotta weighed 185 walking down the street.

He could make 160 when he was younger.

By the time of the last Robinson fight he couldn't--without weakening himself terribly.

He made the weight, but ran totally out of gas after ten rounds. He couldn't even lift his arms to defend himself.

Lucky for Robinson.

And when the fight ended Robinson himself was close to collapse.

Gene Fullmer told me his walking down the street weight was 175, but he could make 160.

Until his title defense against Tiger, where he could not make the weight until he took violent intestinal cleaners before the fight, which take away a lot of your strength and energy.

His physical system had gotten older.

Same thing happened to Tiger against Emile Griffith.

And then look how well Tiger did once he didn't have to make 160.

It is a basic fact that as a strong physical specimen reaches a certain age, he starts to weigh more, whether he likes it or not.

[Goodnight, Irene]

LaMotta weighed 185 walking down the street.

He could make 160 when he was younger.

By the time of the last Robinson fight he couldn't--without weakening himself terribly.

He made the weight, but ran totally out of gas after ten rounds. He couldn't even lift his arms to defend himself.

Lucky for Robinson.

And when the fight ended Robinson himself was close to collapse.

Gene Fullmer told me his walking down the street weight was 175, but he could make 160.

Until his title defense against Tiger, where he could not make the weight until he took violent intestinal cleaners before the fight, which take away a lot of your strength and energy.

His physical system had gotten older.

Same thing happened to Tiger against Emile Griffith.

And then look how well Tiger did once he didn't have to make 160.

It is a basic fact that as a strong physical specimen reaches a certain age, he starts to weigh more, whether he likes it or not.

What a revelation. It gets harder as you age. Wow

Hey, at least you're one step ahead of ome of the lesser lights in Current Scene, to whom I recently had to explain the concept of ageing, & why it makes feats achieved in this sport more impressive the older you get. Yes, I literally had to explain why it's more impressive for a 35-40-year-old fighter to win X than it is a man ten-to-fifteen years his junior.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Hearns wins over Andrade & Hill- Because of his height and power these wins just seem to be glossed over. The Hill fight gets some credit, but it deserves more. A Jr Middleweight went to Light Heavy and destroyed a cinderblock in Andries and out boxed a borderline HOFer in Hill. You can add in the decision over Nate Miller at Cruiserweight. Tommy is remembered for two losses so much that many forget his great wins.


Meldrick Taylor's comprehensive thrashing of Buddy McGirt.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Hearns wins over Andrade & Hill- Because of his height and power these wins just seem to be glossed over. The Hill fight gets some credit, but it deserves more. A Jr Middleweight went to Light Heavy and destroyed a cinderblock in Andries and out boxed a borderline HOFer in Hill. You can add in the decision over Nate Miller at Cruiserweight. Tommy is remembered for two losses so much that many forget his great wins.


Meldrick Taylor's comprehensive thrashing of Buddy McGirt.

McGirt was weight-drained, but, even so, your point stands. Taylor was simply a sensation that night

Taylor-McGirt reminds me a little of Mayweather-Corrales. It's a legit point to say the loser was drained, & that it negatively impacted upon their performance, but, at the same time, you have to acknowledge the result would likely never have been different, so comprehensive was the victor's effort.

[Counter-puncher]

I'll throw out the first two and I'm sure they'll anger a few posters.

Wilfred Benitez W15 Roberto Duran. At this point, Duran had alot more left in his career than Benitez, and was better rested. When they got in the ring however, Duran ended up having an off night, and that off night's name was Wilfred Benitez.

Joe Calzaghe W12 Bernard Hopkins. I'm convinced Joe C won fair and square, albeit very closely, and the guy he beat had dominated Winky Wright in his previous bout and shutout Kelly Pavlik in his next.

agree on both points. good thread and lots of good responses.

Leonard doesn't get enough credit for beating Benitez, speaking of Wilfred, and beating him easily at that IMO

[Ezzard]

LaMotta weighed 185 walking down the street.

He could make 160 when he was younger.

By the time of the last Robinson fight he couldn't--without weakening himself terribly.

He made the weight, but ran totally out of gas after ten rounds. He couldn't even lift his arms to defend himself.

Lucky for Robinson.

And when the fight ended Robinson himself was close to collapse.

Gene Fullmer told me his walking down the street weight was 175, but he could make 160.

Until his title defense against Tiger, where he could not make the weight until he took violent intestinal cleaners before the fight, which take away a lot of your strength and energy.

His physical system had gotten older.

Same thing happened to Tiger against Emile Griffith.

And then look how well Tiger did once he didn't have to make 160.

It is a basic fact that as a strong physical specimen reaches a certain age, he starts to weigh more, whether he likes it or not.

Thanks, Granberry

[Goodnight, Irene]

I'll throw out the first two and I'm sure they'll anger a few posters.

Wilfred Benitez W15 Roberto Duran. At this point, Duran had alot more left in his career than Benitez, and was better rested. When they got in the ring however, Duran ended up having an off night, and that off night's name was Wilfred Benitez.

Joe Calzaghe W12 Bernard Hopkins. I'm convinced Joe C won fair and square, albeit very closely, and the guy he beat had dominated Winky Wright in his previous bout and shutout Kelly Pavlik in his next.

agree on both points. good thread and lots of good responses.

Leonard doesn't get enough credit for beating Benitez, speaking of Wilfred, and beating him easily at that IMO

I disagree. The cut definitely hampered what was a very poorly-prepped Benitez in the first place, & it happened early in the fight, plaguing him throughout. This much, & Leonard had absolutely no intentions of entertaining a rematch. It's an over-rated win, IMO.

[granberry]

Leonard doesn't get enough credit for beating Benitez, speaking of Wilfred, and beating him easily at that IMO

Benitez' own cornermen refused to appear with him because he hadn't fought for a long time and started "training" less than a month before this fight.

His own father wrote an article for Ring magazine saying that his son was not ready for this fight.

His pick up cornermen never protested when Leonard opened up a huge cut on Benitez' forehead with a butt.

You can imagine how Angelo Dundee would have howled if that had happened to Leonard.

The referee stopped the fight with SIX SECONDS left to give a stoppage to Leonard.

WHY?

Because the Las Vegas betting directed that the fight better be a stoppage.

What stunk worst of all was what Benitez did immediately after the fight.

A champion who had just lost his title never did what Benitez did, running over and trying to congratulate Leonard, but being blocked out by the throng of handlers around Leonard.

This fight STUNK to high heavens to anyone familiar with what legitimate boxing is (was).

It is known as the fight the referee stopped with SIX SECONDS left.

Leonard tired badly after about ten rounds. Benitez did nothing to take advantage of that, since he was not in shape to fight. A championship welterweight would have eaten Leonard alive at that point.

[dempseyfire]

Lewis-Tua... as if it's that easy to keep the Tuaman at bay with your jab.
.

The average Rahman did it easily in two fights with Tua.

Wills-Langford I: Harry soundly beat Sam before Langford started noticeably slipping as a fighter.

[Counter-puncher]

I'll throw out the first two and I'm sure they'll anger a few posters.

Wilfred Benitez W15 Roberto Duran. At this point, Duran had alot more left in his career than Benitez, and was better rested. When they got in the ring however, Duran ended up having an off night, and that off night's name was Wilfred Benitez.

Joe Calzaghe W12 Bernard Hopkins. I'm convinced Joe C won fair and square, albeit very closely, and the guy he beat had dominated Winky Wright in his previous bout and shutout Kelly Pavlik in his next.

agree on both points. good thread and lots of good responses.

Leonard doesn't get enough credit for beating Benitez, speaking of Wilfred, and beating him easily at that IMO

I disagree. The cut definitely hampered what was a very poorly-prepped Benitez in the first place, & it happened early in the fight, plaguing him throughout. This much, & Leonard had absolutely no intentions of entertaining a rematch. It's an over-rated win, IMO.

okay i take your points, have to say though, in the sense that I have almost never heard anyone giving credit to leonard for the win i struggle to see how it could be over-rated

re benitez' preparation- since when did he EVER go into the ring well-prepared? and personally i didn't think the cut took that much out of Benitez but there you go.

the stoppage, well there's no denying that was BS

personally though i still give credit to leonard for doing to benitez what Benitez normally did to others- shutting down his offence almost totally, and outboxing him with ease.

as for Leonard not engaging or fighting benitez on the inside? why should he? benitez was a more skilled inside fighter. it would be like criticising leonard for not going toe to toe with hagler. with the extra reach, larger frame and better footwork, why on earth would leonard want to do anything other than win from the outside?

[Goodnight, Irene]

I assume the last paragraph is directed to Granberry, not me.

Well, you're right Leonard isn't routinely credited for the fight. I would say it's over-rated in the sense that Benitez was a great name (under-rated fighter in history, because he doesn't fit the puzzle-piece nonsense of the politically-charged, "Fab Four"), but the circumstances behind Leonard's defeat of Benitez were less than inspiring.

The one-sided nature of the fight did not reflect the difference in class.

[Counter-puncher]

I assume the last paragraph is directed to Granberry, not me.

The one-sided nature of the fight did not reflect the difference in class.

indeed it was to the g-monster, though obviously it was an exercise in futility.

not sure what you mean with the second bit, though, do you mean that the one-sided nature of the fight didn't reflect that the difference in class between Benitez and Leonard was slim-non-existent? ie didn't reflect their basic parity as fighters?

personally at the risk of touting a well-worn cliche, I would simply put it down to styles/ physical skillsets. benitez always looked grea vs people who cam straight at him or were stationary, and a Leonard who was committed to box-moving would give any version of Benitez, trained or not, a very hard time IMO

my issue with people bringing up the stoppage is that leonard won probably 10 rounds, its hardly as though Wilfred was robbed by the referee's idiocy on the night.

oh, and i completely agree that Benitez' overall quality gets overlooked- not unlike that of Mike McCallum and for similar reasons.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Yes, to clarify, I mean to say the difference between them as fighters wasn't anywhere near as wide as Leonard's domination made it seem. I don't think it's entirely a style issue, either --- though that's a valid point --- but, for a quick-fisted combination puncher, Leonard had surprising trouble with moving targets. Benitez was never especially mobile, but he was simply superb at the subtle shifts & shoulder-rolls which made his so difficult to hit. I thought the cut hindered his efforts, but some people feel otherwise. It was ludicrous he would train so lightly for the undefeated Leonard, incidentally. Sometimes, these fighters who are pushed to insane levels at a young age --- even by Boxing standards --- run the burn-our risk. Who was pushed harder than Benitez by his father? Not many, that's for sure.

Benitez was never going to win the decision, the way the fight had gone. He deserved to finish the bout, though.