Is Rocky Marciano A Top Five Heavyweight?

[Ezzard]

Styles make fights.


I have Joe in my top five. But if Foreman fought him one hundred times he would have beat him one hundred time. It's a horrible, horrible, horrible matchup.

Cus D'amato was right when he said that no small swarmer is ever going to beat George.

I like Joe in most mythical matchups but not this one.

Oh, Foreman destroys Rocky. If the ref has a s slow whistle he might literally go Ivan Drago on him.

As an aside look at the rematch. Granted Frazier was older (32) but he looked like a fish out of water using lateral movement instead of just coming at George; bobbing and weavimg.

He could only fight one style and that style was suicide against Foreman. However against most other fighters it's brilliantly effective.

I agree that it’s a bad match up. I’d also agree that Foreman wins. I assume that you’re saying 100-0 to underline your point, so this is not a criticism of you…

But I’ll say this anyway. Sometimes people go overboard…

When you’re talking about the greats you’re talking about special fighters. I don’t think any of them loses 100-0. I doubt Louis or Ali would go 100-0 against world class fighters like Ingo, Tua, Morrison or Bruno, let alone an all-time great.

[raylawpc]

Styles make fights.


I have Joe in my top five. But if Foreman fought him one hundred times he would have beat him one hundred time. It's a horrible, horrible, horrible matchup.

Cus D'amato was right when he said that no small swarmer is ever going to beat George.

I like Joe in most mythical matchups but not this one.

Oh, Foreman destroys Rocky. If the ref has a s slow whistle he might literally go Ivan Drago on him.

As an aside look at the rematch. Granted Frazier was older (32) but he looked like a fish out of water using lateral movement instead of just coming at George; bobbing and weavimg.

He could only fight one style and that style was suicide against Foreman. However against most other fighters it's brilliantly effective.

I agree that it’s a bad match up. I’d also agree that Foreman wins. I assume that you’re saying 100-0 to underline your point, so this is not a criticism of you…

But I’ll say this anyway. Sometimes people go overboard…

When you’re talking about the greats you’re talking about special fighters. I don’t think any of them loses 100-0. I doubt Louis or Ali would go 100-0 against world class fighters like Ingo, Tua, Morrison or Bruno, let alone an all-time great.

Excellent post, Ez.

[Ezzard]

Thanks Ray

Fighters fight so few times (especially today) that sometimes people forget that there're only two people who can win a fight. Any of the big boys can turn a losing position round with just one punch.

[raylawpc]

Indeed, Sam Langford largely dominated the Africian-Amercian fighters of his day such as McVey and Jeannette. Yet he lost of each of them from time to time. Its proof that, over one hundred fights, anyone can have an off night.

[Mr E]

Indeed, Sam Langford largely dominated the Africian-Amercian fighters of his day such as McVey and Jeannette. Yet he lost of each of them from time to time. Its proof that, over one hundred fights, anyone can have an off night.

I think ray and Ezzard are right on the money here. It has been my experience that very few things in life are as simple as 100-0.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Isn't it obvious he was underlining his point, not literally inferring Foreman would win one-hundred straight fights against Frazier?

[jaclem2]

..irene..i can't think of any fight in which rocky was the under dog except maybe against joe louis.

p.s. thanks for the "welcome back"

[Robinson]

A come backing Foreman struggled against an over blown,
coke laced Qawi when they fought.

Sure it was not the mythical prime Foreman, but he was
not in with the best version of Qawi either. I doubt Qawi
beats Foreman, but he certainly did give Old George trouble.

I agree with what Ezzard said, when you have top tier
athletes and they face off over alot of times, the one that
loses tends to adapt and learn from their mistakes.

The danger of rematches always is that the winner thnks
he needs to fight the same as last time, where as the
loser can only but improve on his last performance.

You have a different persepective to take to the gym when
you are looking from the position of the vanquished.

The "Styles make fights" thing is an always over simplification
that arm chair boxers throw around, but not to many guys
working in the gyms really dabble with those generalties on
a serious level.

I do not believe that Frazier is always steam rolled by George,
I think Frazier will struggle with a powerhouse like George but
I also do think (having watched a lot of the great Joe), that
Frazier is a different animal pre 1971, than there after, subtley
yes, would this make a difference against THAT Foreman ?
Who knows...but it is always fun to ponder.

And regardless of what we may think, Foreman is 2-0 over Smoking
Joe.

[Brutu]

On the DVD FACING ALI,George Foreman admits if they had fought 2 years earlier Frazier may have won.
He said it was downhill for Frazier after he defeated Ali in 1971.

[Robinson]

Foreman seemed to always be extremely fond of Frazier.
And respects him a lot.

Besides the dinner of champions, or whatever it was
where the 5 legends are eating and discussing the
game.

Has there been much interaction between Foreman and
Frazier in recent times?

[Goodnight, Irene]

On the DVD FACING ALI,George Foreman admits if they had fought 2 years earlier Frazier may have won.
He said it was downhill for Frazier after he defeated Ali in 1971.

"This guy was a machine. He would eat you up. At this point, I felt I could become champion, if Joe Frazier would have an accident or something" - George Foreman, years after the fight.

In all earnestness, what do you expect him to say? "I would always have whupped this guy easy, just like I did when we met..."

[yancey]

Foreman seemed to always be extremely fond of Frazier.
And respects him a lot.

Besides the dinner of champions, or whatever it was
where the 5 legends are eating and discussing the
game.

Has there been much interaction between Foreman and
Frazier in recent times?

George probably feels some guilt for the things he got away with in the ring that night in Jamaica.

He also must feel great respect for someone he hit with everything but the kitchen sink and still could not keep down.

Frazier has been very gracious towards his successor, but I know he feels he didn't get to fight his fight in Jamaica.

[Goodnight, Irene]

"I pushed a man in Kingston, just to watch him die..."

[Goodnight, Irene]

Frazier showed his, "respect" for Foreman with the derogatory song he wrote & sung of Foreman before their first bout. Then, Foreman showed his appreciation for Frazier's, "class," in the ring. It was a rare moment of Frazier being unnecessarily offensive...& oh, how he paid.

[Ambling Alp]

Getting back to the original thread, I think what gets overlooked when rating Marciano is his consistency. Being great does not just mean winning a few fights against great fighters. Most of a fighter's career involves fights against less than great fighters. You have to beat the bad, medicore, and the good but not great fighters as well. Marciano did that.

Marciano did get a few decisons that could have gone the other way, but still it's amazing how consistent he was. Yes, Liston, Lewis, Tyson etc. would have been the favorite against every fighter that Marciano ever beat. However, would some of them have stumbled a few times and got upset?

Remember, Liston lost to Marty Marshall, Tyson lost to Douglas, Lewis lost to Rahman and McCall etc.

Yes Marciano backers do overboard sometimes, overblowing some of his wins. ie-Ezzard Charles. Charles had lost five times in the previous three years before fighting Marciano. It's simply not that big of a deal for Marciano to have beaten Charles at this stage in Charles' career.
On the other hand, Marciano gets too little credit for the first win over Walcott. Some people just see that Walcott was 38 and think he was shot. He was far from it. He was an anamoly. He was a better fighter in his 30's than he was in his 20's.

When judging a fighter, his whole career should be judged. (Taking into account the stage of fighters career and the stage that his opponents were in.) Too often people just nitpick at one or two losses/bad performances of a fighter they don't like and overlook all the positives. And of course then over look negatives on fighter they like and focus only on the positives.

Rating the heavyweights from #3 to about #15 is difficult. I personally don't quite rate Marciano in the top 5, but it's certainly arguable.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Marciano is definitely one of the top 10 heavyweight power punchers but in my opinion he is not one of the top 5 heavyweights overall. He was under 200 pounds and was short. I do not see how he could compete with larger fighters from the 1960s to now. These are just tale of the tape observations. However, i really have not seen enough of his matches to have a definitive opinion.

Food for thought --- most of the consensus greatest Heavyweights of all-time were in the 195-220lb. category.

[funso banjo baby]

not top 5 because of first 30 fights or so

[Martin Sosa Cameron]

May be an "easy way", but the greatest heavyweight of all time is between Joe Louis and Rocky Marciano, in my modest opinion

[dajuggernaut]

I would place BIG money on Marciano beating Holyfield. Marciano was much better than a past-it Tyson . . .

So was Holyfield.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Good point, Juggs --- & that wasn't the best Holyfield, either, for my money.

I wouldn't put money down on this fight. Fifteen rounds could tip it in Marciano's favour, though. He definitely has an edge in lungs. Maybe Holyfield cuts him up before then, though. The Holyfield of the late-80's & early-90's had some mighty sharp combinations he could put together. It's always been a difficult-to-predict fight, for mine.

[Brutu]

of course Rocky Marciano was a top 5 heavyweight.
Despite what the namby pamby boxing revisionist try to tell you what u should think in the last 15 years.
also Jack Dempsey would have beaten Harry Wills behind(IMOP).

[CNorkusJr]

I think its very tough to talk about these mythical pairings. Intriguing as they are though, you got to remember for all of you above bringing up weight differences, that arguement is apples and oranges. Back in the 50's the heavywt division was 175+ lbs. Most of the heavies came in around 185-200 tops.(Unless you were a tall guy 6'3 or 6'4) These are the guys who Rocky handed their heads to. He wasn't swift, he was graceless, but had POWER on his side and if he connected-lights out Irene. The argument above has Frazier close to Marciano in a fight. Frazier was another Rocky, style wise and power and SIZE wise, and you got them even.

How would Rocky fare against Ali,Foreman, Holmes tough to say I think on size edge alone, These three would walk through the heavies of the 50's I think on size alone but we are talking another generation. If Ali, Holmes and Foreman were 5'11 and 190 lbs, Marciano would clean their clocks.

Marciano I think fought his game by bringing it down to the level of his opponent.I think thats why guys like to argue that he's not a great champ. The Vingo fight and other opponents like him were part of Al Weills scheme of things. I think he is the top guy for the champs in his era (Charles,Walcott,etc) but too small for the bigger picture with Ali, etc etc.
One thing you cant take away from him is being undefeated, regardless of who he fought and when they fought.He walked the walk and to the boxers of that era he was the Champ.
Marciano was a force then and a top 5 easy.

[gambler49]

I would place BIG money on Marciano beating Holyfield. Marciano was much better than a past-it Tyson . . .

AGREED!!!!

I don't understand why quite a few posters on here think Holy could beat the Rock. I see Holy gassing badly by the 8th round. And that would be suicide againt Rocky cos at that point he goes in for the kill. Id see Rocky stopping Holy from round 7/11 and it would be brutal. I can see it in my head now those body punches from Rocky totaly knocking the fkn granny outta Holys body. Holyfield has NEVER been in the ring wiv any1 like a Rocky Marciano. Although I do think Rocky maybe gets a lil marked up and hurt in this fight. But that would be nothing compared to what Holy would hav2 deal wiv. I mean Rocky Marciano puts pressure on you from the opening bell to the end.
I have Rocky Marciano at #4 on my list.
I believe Rocky Marciano is very underated along wiv Gene Tunney and Larry Holmes.

[gambler49]

It's more like Rocky never fought someone like a prime Evander Holyfield. Rock never had to face a good fighter that out-weighed him by 20-25 pounds. Evander has plenty of times over his career and would have 4in in Height and 11in in reach over Rock. Evander's chin was made out of fuking steel, his 1-2's were explosive, his counter punching and speed would have Rock lookin' like a damn fool. A prime Evander gassing out by Round 8? Not likely. Holyfield was in the ring w/someone like Marciano, and that fighter was Ray Mercer. And I don't want to hear the shiit that Ray wasn't a good fighter and his career was a let-down blah blah blah. When Ray came to fight that guy could fuking bang w/a granite chin to back it and Evander knocked down Ray for the first time in Ray's career. If a 38 year old Moore could knock down Marciano, what the hell makes you think peak/prime Evander wouldn't be picking him off?[/quote]


Moore was a bigger puncher then Holy! And 38 was nothing this guy aged well.
How did Holy hav a chin of steel wen he was wobbled by Bert Cooper? KOd by Bowe in his prime. I'm not even gonna mention the Toney fight. And Mercer was good but don't get carried away. A slightley past it Charles and a prime Jersey Joe (yes 38 but he got better wen he was older) was every bit as good as Holyfield. And as for the 25lbs and and 10 inches forget about it. But... I respect ur opinion all the same.

[yancey]

I don't think he makes the grade in that context, but I think he may go closer to doing so than we sometimes imagine.

He doesn't make the grade in that context and I think he may be farther away from doing so than we sometime imagine.