George Foreman and"Fightin Dirty"(1969-1977)

[yancey]

I've always thought that a boxer should do what he can to win and that it's up to the ref to prevent a fighter gaining an advanatge from any under hand tactics. Take points away and disqualify persistent foulers. Refs should be given more support and should be more willing to take points away from the cheats.

Respectfully disagree, Ezzard.

I know that many fighters come from rough and tumble, dog eat dog backgrounds, but one should always conduct themselves as a man and a sportsman.

In better times, they mostly did.

Compete hard but fair, in all areas of life.

Your point about the referee's role is undoubtedly valid.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I want to hear you say it, Yance. Go on --- I'll get a kick out of it, & you know you want to convince the whole world of it, so why not? Shout it from the rooftops --- I wanna hear it, direct...

"Joe Frazier, at his best, beats George Foreman"

[yancey]

I want to hear you say it, Yance. Go on --- I'll get a kick out of it, & you know you want to convince the whole world of it, so why not? Shout it from the rooftops --- I wanna hear it, direct...

"Joe Frazier, at his best, beats George Foreman"

We really are having communication problems, GI.

I have said on several occasions that I would NOT bet on peak Frazier at EVEN money with '73 Foreman. That should tell you something right there, but you simply can't freaking understand!

I do think peak Frazier has a legitimate chance at overcoming the style matchup problem and ultimately wearing down and prevailing over GF through attrition. To do this, he has to get to the inside of Foreman's punching radius, stay there, and wear away with body shots. If he gets it to round 4 in decent shape, his chances of ultimately prevailing go up.

He cannot get to the inside if the bigger and stronger fellow gets away with the pushing maneuvers which is what happened in Jamaica.

Why can't you understand?

Take it easy, GI.

You can have the last word and I go in peace.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I didn't say, "You said that." I said, "You know you want to say it."

Pretty smug advice on comprehension. Maybe you had trouble reading that one through the tear-smeared eyes as you b!tched --- again --- about shoving, as though it made a lick of difference to Frazier's chances. It's Boxing. Stop crying & let 'em fight it out. Look, it's illegal to hold behind the head. Do you understand that? Ali did it to Foreman all-fucken-night. However, it wasn't the difference between the two, so I take it on the chin --- like a man --- & acknowledge the better fighter won. It's called, "class."

...& LOL at, "It was time for Frazier to lose the title." More retrospective attempts to downgrade what happened. Too bad nigh-on the entire Boxing universe didn't share your opinion going into the fight. Frazier was roundly expected to butcher him. If only you had been around to tell everyone putting on their hard-earned cash to make Frazier the 3 & 4-1 fave he was going in, no?

Block the trauma, fight the pain, it was all just a dream... 8)

[Brutu]

I didnt really mean to infer that George Foreman was a dirty fighter,but that at times he used not so legal tatics,which were only amplified by his being perhaps the most powerful punching heavyweight of all times.
It was more about his mental approach to the sport.
Here is a link to an "Exhibition" in 1975 in the ring with Jody Ballard,for a fund raiser for the 1976 USA Olympic Boxing team
that I think aired live on ABC Wide World of Sports(?).
(notice Foreman did refrain from hitting this opponent in the back of the head when he turned away,but man, Foreman could be brutal.
Also this video isnt complete of course,but I seem to remember Foreman helping pick Ballard off the canvas after wards.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MWjMZnsKRY

[ThatOne]

I didnt really mean to infer that George Foreman was a dirty fighter,but that at times he used not so legal tatics,which were only amplified by his being perhaps the most powerful punching heavyweight of all times.
It was more about his mental approach to the sport.
Here is a link to an "Exhibition" in 1975 in the ring with Jody Ballard,for a fund raiser for the 1976 USA Olympic Boxing team that I think aired live on ABC Wide World of Sports.
(notice Foreman did refrain from hitting this opponent in the back of the head when he turned away,but man, Foreman could be brutal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MWjMZnsKRY

When one sees those bombs it should make one appreciate what Muhammad Ali did that night in Kinshasha. It was nothing short of heroic.


:

[Goodnight, Irene]

I didnt really mean to infer that George Foreman was a dirty fighter,but that at times he used not so legal tatics,which were only amplified by his being perhaps the most powerful punching heavyweight of all times.
It was more about his mental approach to the sport.
Here is a link to an "Exhibition" in 1975 in the ring with Jody Ballard,for a fund raiser for the 1976 USA Olympic Boxing team
that I think aired live on ABC Wide World of Sports(?).
(notice Foreman did refrain from hitting this opponent in the back of the head when he turned away,but man, Foreman could be brutal.
Also this video isnt complete of course,but I seem to remember Foreman helping pick Ballard off the canvas after wards.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MWjMZnsKRY

Many (perhaps even most?) of the greats were dirty --- at times --- without being dirty fighters by & large. Your description of Foreman is fair --- Yancey's --- a, "dirty fighter," is just sour grapes.

Absolute, iron-clad fact: George Foreman was clean in far, far, far more bouts than he was dirty or suspect.

[Robinson]

I cant recall any other fighter literally yanking his opponents gloves down while they were guarding their face from being punched.
I first noticed the tatic of his in the Toronto Five.But He may have done it before.

The Toronto Five....

One of the most pathetic carnival displays I've ever seen, with Ali yanking his strings at ringside and laughing about George being crazy.

Does anybody remember the round or two when George wanted to show his mobility and started dancing around like a fool? I think he fell at one point.

That was a sad sight.

I thought the Toronto 5 exhibition was awesome. A throw back event.

If that happened in the ealy 20th or late 19th century it would have
been the norm and would have only secured the then champs place
in history as great men. But under modern circumstances, with more
modern sensibilities and cameras, it does not sit well with people.

But to me, any time a man can best 5 professional prize fighters in
one night, it shows he is a strong talent. The boxing media and them
experts can sit idle and watch and criticise, but while they record history
men like Foreman are making it.

Ali was only doing his thing, like he always does. If it was him doing
that exhibition it would no doubt be on some Tshirt and poster sold
every where, but when 1970s Foreman (mr Personality) does it
its considered an ugly farce.

To me...I think it was awesome and great.

Battle Royale away George. He did on that night, what wanna be
pugs like me only ever dream off.

[HomicideHenry]

I cant recall any other fighter literally yanking his opponents gloves down while they were guarding their face from being punched.
I first noticed the tatic of his in the Toronto Five.But He may have done it before.

The Toronto Five....

One of the most pathetic carnival displays I've ever seen, with Ali yanking his strings at ringside and laughing about George being crazy.

Does anybody remember the round or two when George wanted to show his mobility and started dancing around like a fool? I think he fell at one point.

That was a sad sight.

I thought the Toronto 5 exhibition was awesome. A throw back event.

If that happened in the ealy 20th or late 19th century it would have
been the norm and would have only secured the then champs place
in history as great men. But under modern circumstances, with more
modern sensibilities and cameras, it does not sit well with people.

But to me, any time a man can best 5 professional prize fighters in
one night, it shows he is a strong talent. The boxing media and them
experts can sit idle and watch and criticise, but while they record history
men like Foreman are making it.

Ali was only doing his thing, like he always does. If it was him doing
that exhibition it would no doubt be on some Tshirt and poster sold
every where, but when 1970s Foreman (mr Personality) does it
its considered an ugly farce.

To me...I think it was awesome and great.

Battle Royale away George. He did on that night, what wanna be
pugs like me only ever dream off.

Bob Fitzsimmons fought 7 opponents in one night. One of the seven he fought twice, making 8 outings in one night. Lamar Clark once kayoed 5 or 6 men on the same night. Foreman's exhibition with Kirkman, Judge, Johnson, Polite, etc was impressive considering nothing like that been done in nearly a decade, and nearly 50-60 years before that.

[Robinson]

HH

That is what I think. But for some reason it is frowned upon ?

Maybe because of Ali's jiving, and Cosell's moralising ?

In any case it is a throw back to the classical era, yet the same
people that herald "the good ole days" frown on Modern athletes
re producing it.

Honey Roy Palmer did it in Diggstown some years later too !

[HomicideHenry]

James J. Jeffries was another who did these sort of bouts. He once defeated the top three heavyweights in England in one day---and later on he challenged Corbett, Sharkey and Fitzsimmons to fight him on the same day. They refused to do so.

[Robinson]

Tough Old SOB :)

[gregor]

Almost every champion used to bend the rules in his favour, and I do not see why Foreman should be the exception. I do not think his tactic was more illegal than that of Tyson, Holy or even Ali. Apart from the thing already mentioned, he used to push back his opponents (Frazier), and in his fight with Quawi he seemed to target mostly his kidney.

[Counter-puncher]

I don't remember him shoving Ali in Zaire.

agree, if anyone got a schooling in the dark arts that night it was Foreman taking lessons from Ali

[Goodnight, Irene]

That same year, it took Frazier the same length of time to dispose of a shot Ellis as it did Foreman all five adversaries in his exhibition.

A little fact you won't hear from Yancey.

[raylawpc]

James J. Jeffries was another who did these sort of bouts. He once defeated the top three heavyweights in England in one day---and later on he challenged Corbett, Sharkey and Fitzsimmons to fight him on the same day. They refused to do so.

Those fights in England were exhibitions. But he was scheduled to do it in Chicago circa 1900. One of the named opponents was Joe Choynski. However, Chicago, by city ordinance, permitted only 6-round fights in those days. Since Jeffries proposed boxing each of the three in scheduled six-rounders, the mayor of Chicago refused to permit the fight since Jeffries would be scheduled to fight more than 6 rounds and that would violate the Chicago round limit ordinance - in the mayor's view.

Regarding the Corbett-Sharkey-Fitzsimmons challenge, both Sharkey and Fitzsimmons said they'd be willing to participate. The hold-out was Corbett.

[yancey]

That same year, it took Frazier the same length of time to dispose of a shot Ellis as it did Foreman all five adversaries in his exhibition.

A little fact you won't hear from Yancey.

Got to come back on this thread.

I wanted to drop this thing, giving GI the last word. Thought maybe he would make his points with a little class and let it go, but it wasn't the case.

GI, I think you are bothered because I'm right and deep down you know it. GF got away with murder in Kingston.

You say had Mercante stopped the push-offs that it wouldn't have made any difference. Maybe so.
But maybe not, who knows, one good body shot early on from Frazier might have made all the difference. Bullies can sometimes fall apart quite quickly when they meet resistance. Foreman himself has said he was scared of Frazier, knew that he had to get JF out quick as he knew he (GF) had stamina problems. My point is that Frazier never got to get to the inside with the constant push-offs from the bigger, stronger man. Frazier himself made that point in his post fight interview. Those remarks are somewhere on BR, maybe it is on this thread, not sure.

I said before Frazier was clearly never the same after the FOTC. However long he took to beat Ellis the second time around and the second fight with Foreman have absolutely no bearing on the point that I'm making. Think it is a bit silly that you are trying to compare the number of rounds Frazier took with Ellis vs that complete, pathetic joke of a carnival in Toronto, but whatever.

What a bizarre scene, Ali having a ball at ringside, messing with GF's head, Cosell beside himself with disgust, and your guy smack dab in the middle of it.

The title did not change hands in a very clean fight in Jamaica. Mercante should have stepped in, but he didn't. Might have made no difference, might have made all the difference. It would have been a truer test and better for both men to have found out.

btw, if I'm not mistaken, today is the anniversary of that fight.

That ought to excite you a little.

[ThatOne]

Ali was just messing with Foreman's head. It was all in good fun. I don't think he disliked Foreman. Truth be told he didn't dislike any of his opponents except Terrel who deliberately disrespected him.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Whatever you need to tell yourself to keep the fantasy alive, Yance.

The anniversay has not escaped my attention. In fact, I have just threaded it. Gonna be a bad day, mate? 8)

[HomicideHenry]

James J. Jeffries was another who did these sort of bouts. He once defeated the top three heavyweights in England in one day---and later on he challenged Corbett, Sharkey and Fitzsimmons to fight him on the same day. They refused to do so.

Those fights in England were exhibitions. But he was scheduled to do it in Chicago circa 1900. One of the named opponents was Joe Choynski. However, Chicago, by city ordinance, permitted only 6-round fights in those days. Since Jeffries proposed boxing each of the three in scheduled six-rounders, the mayor of Chicago refused to permit the fight since Jeffries would be scheduled to fight more than 6 rounds and that would violate the Chicago round limit ordinance - in the mayor's view.

Regarding the Corbett-Sharkey-Fitzsimmons challenge, both Sharkey and Fitzsimmons said they'd be willing to participate. The hold-out was Corbett.

Thanks for the info!

[Brutu]

One of the effective punches Foreman used against Frazier in their first fight,which wasnt illegal but uncoventional
was a punch suggested by his trainer Archie Moore,which was to hit Frazier with a right hand on the top of the head when Frazier was crouching down.Dick Sadler was against it because he thought Foreman may hurt his hand doing it.
It sort of reminds me of one of Sonny Liston's favorite punches back in the day which was to to hit his opponents in the forehead so they become confused.

[ThatOne]

One of the effective punches Foreman used against Frazier in their first fight,which wasnt illegal but uncoventional
was a punch suggested by his trainer Archie Moore,which was to hit Frazier with a right hand on the top of the head when Frazier was crouching down.Dick Sadler was against it because he thought Foreman may hurt his hand doing it.
It sort of reminds me of one of Sonny Liston's favorite punches back in the day which was to to hit his opponents in the forehead so they become confused.

That's uncanny because those were the shots Ali hit Moore with. Moore said the shots made him crazy. Moore also said Ali would beat Louis four out of five because of his speed.

I miss The Old Mongoose.He had a friendly rivalry with Ali since Ali walked out of his training camp that culminated with Ali beating Foreman who was to be the instrument of his revenge in Zaire. I remember Ali and The Old Mongoose trading poetry about the fight.

Nether Ali or Moore really wanted their fight at the time but Ali needed a name on his resume and The Old Mongoose needed the money.

[Robinson]

And Ali used a lot of the lessons shared to him by Moore
in Ali's early days, when he under studied ole Archie.

[Collins2000]

And Ali used a lot of the lessons shared to him by Moore
in Ali's early days, when he under studied ole Archie.

Archie sent a message via S.I. to Ali just before the Rumble in the Jungle.

Ali, George will half kill you. Why did you threaten him? I write this direct to you so that you can remember me as the kind old man who helped you cut your wisdom teeth. You added a few more tricks to the ones I showed you. You lifted the bolo punch from Kid Gavilan and converted the half-step "Watson Shuffle" into the widely advertised Ali Shuffle. With those meager tricks in your bag, you claim you did it all. Here is my poem to you:

Really, your poetry is nothing by rhyme/ and 15 rounds is a long time./Joseph Frazier couldn't even make two;/ Ken Norton was a victim of George's coup. /Foreman's left will make you dance Turkey in the Straw. /When his right connects with your lower mandible:/Goodby, jaw.

This time you are in real trouble, I must publicly warn you. After the fight, you can even hide out a few years in the jungle, slide into Louisville about midnight, and nobody would ever know. The reason I am writing this to you is that I don't want your blood on my hands.

[Collins2000]

From a site which discusses whether Ali is the quintessential American. Interesting reading if you have an open mind. If you have a closed mind and / or you are a bigot, probably best if you don't go there as your head might explode.

http://www.americansc.org.uk/Online/For ... ad_ali.htm



This was the time when he almost overstepped the limits. He tells the story of how he saw Sonny Liston in a casino shooting craps, and he went over and took some of Sonny’s craps without asking. That caused a crowed to gather.


"Naturally," he relates, "the word had spread and people were piling around us. But then very suddenly, Liston froze me with that look of his. He said real quiet, ‘Let’s go on over here.’ And he led the way to a table and the people hung back. I ain’t going to lie. This was the only time since I have known Sonny Liston that he really scared me. I just felt the power and the meanness of the man I was messing with. Anybody tell me about how he has fought cops and beat tough thugs and all of that, I believe it. I saw that streak in him when he told me, ‘Get the hell out of here or I’ll wipe you out.’" Haley: "What did you do?" Clay: "I got the hell out of there. I told you he really scared me."