Rocky Marciano V Larry Holmes

[ThatOne]

Is there anybody here who would take Rocky?

[dempseyfire]

Over 15 rounds I wouldn't count him out at all. Marciano was far superior to Mike Weaver who gave Holmes hell in their fight and Earnie Shavers (not quite the puncher but a far superior fighter overall)

[Mr E]

Over 15 rounds I wouldn't count him out at all. Marciano was far superior to Mike Weaver who gave Holmes hell in their fight and Earnie Shavers (not quite the puncher but a far superior fighter overall)

I agree with this. My money would be on Holmes, W15 -- but, like dempseyfire, I would not count Marciano out.

[BoxBuzz]

Over 15 rounds I wouldn't count him out at all. Marciano was far superior to Mike Weaver who gave Holmes hell in their fight and Earnie Shavers (not quite the puncher but a far superior fighter overall)

I agree with this. My money would be on Holmes, W15 -- but, like dempseyfire, I would not count Marciano out.

And no one ever had that experience.

[Mr E]

Over 15 rounds I wouldn't count him out at all. Marciano was far superior to Mike Weaver who gave Holmes hell in their fight and Earnie Shavers (not quite the puncher but a far superior fighter overall)

I agree with this. My money would be on Holmes, W15 -- but, like dempseyfire, I would not count Marciano out.

And no one ever had that experience.

Nice.

[yancey]

Larry Holmes, decisively.

[Controversial]

Over 15 rounds I wouldn't count him out at all. Marciano was far superior to Mike Weaver who gave Holmes hell in their fight and Earnie Shavers (not quite the puncher but a far superior fighter overall)

Marciano never fought anyone with the size and ability of Holmes. 6'3" and 15-16 stone with arguably the best jab in history plus a great chin to go with it.

Marcianos only chance would be to knock Holmes out, which although possible, is unlikely in my opinion. Marciano wasn't generally a one punch ko artist, he tended to wear fighters down by battering them into submission. I think Holmes's jab would have kept Marciano away and probably cut him to shreds at the same time.

Holmes UD or late stoppage on cuts.

[Robinson]

I see Holmes winning a decision, maybe a cut stoppage.
I do see Marciano troubling him at times, hard to deal with
an in shape, aggressive pressure fighter like the rock, who
with his slight stature can come up and under.

I do see Marciano giving Ali a harder night than Holmes though.

[Crease]

I would pick Marciano.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Holmes by stoppage in a brutally one sided exhibition.

[theone]

What Saad said.

[JABARDELLI]

REFLECTIONS ON ROCKY MARCIANO

Written May 8, 2001 by John A. Bardelli

I received an e-mail regarding a mythical fight between Rocky Marciano and Larry Holmes which stated in part: "Since Holmes was not a favored icon, and since he has few fans, I guess I will take up his unpopular support in a sense. I think that this would have been the most competitive fight for either man."

Thereafter, I responded as follows:

I understand the need to champion an underdog and to take the side of one who is seemingly being maligned and you are to be commended in your thoughts, your efforts and willingness to partake of battle. Also, your comments were written with respect and that is appreciated.

But let's dissect what you have written and let each others comments be decided on their merits. When you write that "this would have been the most competitive fight for either man," I can agree that from the perspective of Larry Holmes that it would be "the most competitive fight" of his career. However, since the word "the," in the manner you've used it, indicates singular as in "the one most competitive fight," from Rocky Marciano's perspective, I cannot agree. If you were to say "a competitive fight" from the viewpoint of either fighter, you'll get no argument from me.

From a Marciano perspective, the reason I differ in my analysis is that Marciano's singular fights with Joe Louis, the first Jersey Joe Walcott encounter, both of the Ezzard Charles fights, and the Archie Moore fight, were wars which would have been more of a challenge and threat to Marciano, on a comparative basis, than what I perceived Larry Holmes offering.

Your response and the response of others to my observations, predictably, might be, "Joe Louis? Come on, now, Louis was done and over the hill when he fought Marciano." That is more commentary utilized by the Marciano detractors that Marciano fought only aged and worn out veterans.

The Joe Louis that Marciano knocked out to earn Marciano's shot at the heavyweight title was not the prime Joe Louis that knocked out Max Baer, Jimmy Braddock, Max Schmeling, and a plethora of other great fighters. However, despite Louis being over the hill, the Brown Bomber was a major hurdle for Marciano to overcome and it was doubtful that Marciano would win the fight. Louis came in the betting favorite. Louis, on his comeback, had won 8 consecutive fights and was sporting a record of 70 wins and 2 defeats. It is a record which has stood the test of time and better than that achieved by Johnson, Dempsey, Frazier, Liston, Ali, Foreman, Holmes, Lewis, Holyfield, and all the other heavyweights who crushed resin ... save one.

Yet, in itself, the record compiled by Louis, considering the opposition he took on ... may be the singularly most accomplished record compiled by anyone in the annals of all sport, not just in the realm of boxing.

A common question asked is how would a vintage Louis have done in matches with a vintage Frazier, Ali, Holmes, Marciano, Dempsey, Lewis, Tyson, Holyfield, and Foreman? To grasp the enormity of just how great a fighter a vintage prime Joe Louis was, if such matches could have been made, I submit that Louis would have been better than even money in Las Vegas circles to not only defeat each of these fighters but to knock each of these fighters out. I am not saying that is the bet I would wager nor that I would pick Louis to even beat, for example, a prime Jack Dempsey. But I believe the odds maker would have picked Louis by a knockout over every fighter I have named.

Consider that in seventeen years as a professional he fought seventy-one times and won sixty-eight of them. He knocked out fifty-four opponents, including six (Primo Carnera, Max Baer, Jack Sharkey, James Braddock, Max Schmeling, and Jersey Joe Walcott) who at one time or another held the heavyweight title. His first two defeats were spaced more than fourteen years apart. His only three losses, were, in order, to a former (Schmeling), current (Ezzard Charles), and future (Rocky Marciano) champion. He wore the belt longer and defended it more often and more successfully than anyone else in the history of the division.

People think that Marciano waded right through Joe Louis in their October 26, 1951 slugfest and that the fight result was a foregone conclusion ... Marciano by an easy knockout. How wrong they were and are! They are deceived by the 20/20 hindsight cadence to the march of history. Let me ask you to go watch this fight again, again, and again. When you do, you will see that it was a brutal war and Joe Louis' punching power is evident throughout. He was a threat to knock Marciano out in every round from the first through the seventh before Marciano caught up to Louis and ended matters in the eighth.

I implore you to watch the tremendous speed of Louis' right hand in exchanges with Marciano. I for one, have never seen the right hand speed of any fighter, the equal of the speed of Louis' right hand as he fires shots at Marciano this particular evening despite the fact of his age. There are times when the watching eye cannot follow Louis' right hand as captured by the camera!!! That is not exaggeration!!! Conclusion: The Louis fight, in itself, offered, on a comparative basis, more competition to Marciano to anything that Larry Holmes could have brought to the table.

I reach the same conclusions with Walcott, Charles, and Moore, in terms of their bringing more to a ring war than would Larry Holmes in a match between Marciano and these all time great warriors.

I received yet another response stating: "There is no one who can deny that Holmes would have been snapping off one of the most punishing jabs in the history of the sport and piling up points at the start of the match."

I again responded:

When Ali sparred with Marciano, Ali commented afterwards about the difficulty he had reaching Marciano with his jab. Remember, Joe Louis had probably the most punishing jab in history and he was able to reach Marciano with his jab. After the fight, Marciano responded to questions about Louis' jab stating that he couldn't got away from them, there was nothing he could do but go through them ... and he did.

However, while Louis was jabbing and trying to set Marciano up for paralyzing punching power in either left hooks or a right hand, power I might add, that Larry Holmes never possessed, Marciano wasn't sitting back imagining how he could open the doors to the fortress. He was slipping inside and numbing Louis with ferocious body shots to the chest, stomach, arms, shoulders, head, hips, --- all telling blows, all energy sapping blows, all blows calculated to bring down the fortress, to drop the oak tree.

The Louis jab was superior to the Holmes jab. If Marciano could get through the Louis jab ... as he did ... he would get through the Holmes jab, the Liston jab, the Ali jab, the Lewis jab. You see, those fighters knew that they had to have something to keep Marciano at bay ... to keep him in the center of the ring ... to keep from getting the ring cut off by an every advancing Marciano who pushed, maneuvered and bulled his opposition to the ropes and into ring corners. To survive a Marciano onslaught, an opponent had to keep from getting his back pushed up against the ropes ... but it was inevitable that he would force them to where they didn't want to be and that's where their own survival skills would be forced to surface. Few survived being knocked out.

No, my friend, the jab alone would not keep you alive in a Marciano showdown. You had to have something on the order of TNT in the right hand and bombs in the left hook, to accompany the left jab in order to be effective against Marciano.

Joe Louis had both. It might have been a different story if Louis had been 10 years younger. Note, I said "might have been." Louis acknowledged in his memoirs that he thinks Marciano would have beaten him even when he was in the prime of his career.

Some write to me and state "There is no one who can deny that Holmes had a right hand that could have dropped Rocky."

Listen, Walcott had both a right hand and a left hook ... it wasn't enough, however. Archie Moore had both ... it wasn't enough, however. Ezzard Charles had less power but blinding speed ... it wasn't enough, however. And Larry Holmes had a jab, a moderately powerful right hand, no left hook and ... it wouldn't have been enough, however.

Holmes didn't have the right hand that Moore had, that Louis had, that Walcott had, ... I am not certain about Charles even though Charles had a superior left hook than Holmes. Marciano was much more difficult to hit than fans appreciate. He bobbed, he weaved, he kept low, he rode punches, ... fighters who punched at him ... did so with trepidation for they knew that every time you fired a shot at Marciano, he returned ... not with a jab, not with something willy-nilly, but with a punch calculated to sheer teeth at the gum line, fracture jaws, break noses, and render an opponent senseless ... he wanted you to pay the price for having the audacity to throw a punch at him! He punched with a vengeance, with leverage, with both fists, and truly understood what it meant to be a counter puncher in every sense of the word. When a fighter threw leather at Marciano, he didn't retreat --- he retaliated with a vengeance.

[Those who allude that Chris Arreola was/is another Rocky Marciano --- that's fodder for a week's worth of laughter and a shaking of the head for the non-sense it implies. The only comparison that one can make between the two is that they both wear boxing gloves when entering the ring. Whoever made such a comparison was out to make a buck --- the statement did not come from historical discernment, you can bank on that.]

Fighters knew that Marciano had this instant retaliatory response and consequently they wanted to be on the move when they exchanged with Marciano ... in a large measure, this is why the respect they rendered to his countering abilities, diffused some of their own punching strength and power.

Having said all this, I hope you realize that I am not attacking another's personal feelings, opinions and evaluations as long as you've rendered your appeal with dignity and grace and not sought not to attack the character of Rocky Marciano. Nor am I attacking Larry Holmes as a fighter. I concur with those who believe that a Marciano-Holmes fight would be a great fight ... it would be another competitive fight for Marciano and he would have treated it as the same. He would have taken Larry Holmes very seriously and trained for him in the same respect that he trained for Louis, Walcott, Charles, Moore, and all the rest. He would have put in 4 to 6 months of training as was his routine. I can't and, hence, will not comment on Larry Holmes training program for I have no knowledge what his approach to training for a fight was. I would be surprised if told that he was the equal of Louis, Marciano or Dempsey in his approach to training.

When all was said and done, win, lose or draw, Larry Holmes would have learned an entirely new meaning of respect and through a battered countenance apologize for his comments about Marciano and the Marciano family. Marciano would have lauded his opponent in a very dignified fashion. I suspect Holmes, in a post-fight interview would have commented that he would fight anyone in the world but "I don't want a rematch with Marciano," similar to the words he said after succumbing to the lethal fists of Mike Tyson.

I have read: "Marciano is NEVER listed above Louis in any all time top ten poll," as one commentator wrote to me.

Keep in mind that Louis was 37 years old when he fought Marciano. Marciano was 27. Louis was past his prime but Marciano had not yet reached his prime. Louis, on a comeback, had won 8 victories in a row and his over-all record stood at 56-2 with 50 KOs to Marciano's 37-0 with 32 KOs.

When one says that Marciano is never listed above Louis in any "all time" top ten poll, have you considered Joe Louis' own "poll?" Louis said, "I had a bad weakness I kept hid throughout my career. I didn't like to be crowded, and Marciano always crowded his opponents. That's why I say I could never have beaten him." Now some of you might say that is a humble Joe Louis speaking. Yet, when Louis addressed Muhammad Ali in an exchange some years later in Las Vegas and Ali reminded Louis that he fought a bunch of bums who were called the "bum of the month" club, Louis shot back to Ali, "if you'd been fighting at that time you would have been called one of the bum of the month fighters as well." I submit that also was a humble Joe Louis speaking as well. The truth is always humble.

Size is important. The intangible of heart coupled with Spartan conditioning is more important. Angelo Dundee who saw some big fighters as a trainer and manager during his sojourn said of Marciano: "Marciano is the most underrated heavyweight of all time. He had so much more than they ever gave him credit for. He was capable of getting those bigger, heavier guys and destroying them."

Walcott Told the author, John A. Bardelli, in a 1974 taped interview, "Marciano kept coming, never stopping"

Joe Frazier fought some big boys including George Foreman. Yet Frazier says: "Joe Louis is the greatest heavyweight champion of all time. Rocky Marciano is second only to Louis." Yes, I acknowledge that Marciano is ranked behind Louis but keep in mind what happened when they fought. Note that Frazier ranks Marciano ahead of both Foreman and Ali.

George Foreman ranks them thus: 1. Joe Louis, 2. Rocky Marciano, 3. Jack Johnson, and 4. Muhammad Ali. Are you getting the picture what fighters think of Rocky Marciano? Again, note that Foreman ranks Marciano ahead of Ali, Frazier, and Jack Johnson for goodness sake.

Another fighter, who saw much throughout his long and historical career, was Abe Attell who said: "What fighter do you think could battle successfully with Rocky 20 or 25 rounds, assuming all of them to be at their peak? No one, in my opinion. His power in setting and carrying the pace was such that none of the modern heavyweights since John L. Sullivan's time could endure his offense for the distance I have mentioned."

I will grant my readers that virtually all of the "experts" do rate Louis ahead of Marciano in ranking the 10 greatest heavyweights of all time. So what? Does this mean that a prime Joe Louis would have beaten a prime Rocky Marciano? Louis was a great, great, great fighter. Louis observations about the crowding style of Marciano and Louis' weakness in fighting such fighters have to be taken into consideration. Until a fighter's weakness is exploited, its hard to envision just what has to be done to beat him. The weakness is never apparent until the right style is utilized to lend a crushing defeat. Tunney-Dempsey, Schmeling-Louis, Braddock-Baer and Douglas-Tyson come readily to mind. The weakness may be an anomaly, a fluke, and not something that would happen again in 100 fights. Yet, the loss happens and with it comes the revelation of flaws in style, flaws and weaknesses in character, in temperament, in managerialship, and in other intangibles that lend themselves to defining the truly great fights in our midst.

It is now some 51 years following the retirement of Rocky Marciano who hung up his gloves in 1955. If he had flaws, they were flaws which were not exploited by any fighter during his ring career that served to mar his ring record. Psychologically, it is difficult to envision Rocky Marciano as being capable of being beaten. Its like saying we can't envision what an older John F. Kennedy would look like for he doesn't age within the framework of our memories in the same sense that Marciano is incapable of being beaten since we were not witness to the unfolding of such an occurrence. Those mind sets are with us for a lifetime and you can analyze with computers all you want it won't change anything.

Marciano didn't use drugs, didn't drink, didn't dissipate, didn't abuse women, didn't have women in his training camp, didn't neglect the fact that he was worshiped as a hero to children and adulating adults, always trained to perfection, had perhaps the greatest endurance of all heavyweights, came into the ring in shape every time, left it all in the ring each and every fight, didn't use abusive language, loved and was loved by his family, provided for his wife and family, was considerate and respectful of his opponent, fans, reporters, and women and was respected by all who knew him. There have been other fighters who have espoused these once time honored attributes. But there's none who put it all together and left the ring with an unbeaten record as the undefeated heavyweight champion of the world.

Sure, our minds can be imaginative and envision a fistful of "what-ifs." But give me for every 100 of those "what-ifs" a single accomplishment and when you measure all of Marciano's accomplishments in his brief walk through life, even his 49-0 career boxing record pales by comparison for the measure of Marciano is his character. The fight career is mere frosting on the cake.

[Robinson]

JaB

Thanks for that read mate, appreciated.

[Controversial]

When Ali sparred with Marciano, Ali commented afterwards about the difficulty he had reaching Marciano with his jab. Remember, Joe Louis had probably the most punishing jab in history and he was able to reach Marciano with his jab. After the fight, Marciano responded to questions about Louis' jab stating that he couldn't got away from them, there was nothing he could do but go through them ... and he did.

Im a big Marciano fan and your response is like many I've read about Marciano.

The fact remains no matter how good Louis was, he wasn't the fighter he was when he fought Marciano. It doesn't matter how other fighters rated Louis as the greatest ever, you have to take each fight on its own merits. Louis was 37, slightly paunchier and his punch power had somewhat diminished, boxing 70 rounds in his 8 comeback fights where he went 8-0 (3kos), with one of these stoppages being due to a bad cut (Beshore).

And to be honest I would take Ali's comments after their staged fight as being respectful to an old champ, Ali wasn't going tp slag him off.

Marciano never fought anyone with the size, weight and ability of Holmes. Just think Marciano would be giving 5 inches in height, 13 inches in reach and 2.5 stone in weight. Most of the good guys Marciano beat were pretty much the same size as himself, and in most cases they were in the twilight of their careers.

Marcianos only way to win would be to knock Holmes out, he wouldn't be winning this fight on points. Marciano rarely knocked world class fighters out with one punch, he normally battered them into submission. I can't see his punch being as successful against Holmes as it was against Louis.

Holmes UD or late stoppage.

[Ezzard]

Marciano has the power to take him out with one shot. But Holmes would be very, very careful not to allow that to happen. I can’t see him getting carless like he was with Snipes and Weaver.

Thanks for the post Jabardelli… For me there’s too much talk about records etc…

I think over 15 that Rocky would have his moments and he could find the shot he needs but my feeling is that Holmes would weather the storms when they came and win a decision or late stoppage.

[Adamj1987]

i would take larry everytime

[ThatOne]

I have had this argument so many times. I might as well have it again. The laws of physiology are immutable. As you get older and especially in the mid and late thirties and especially forty you body experiences physical changes; your lens thicken, your reflexes slow, and the ratio of fat to muscle increases. Rocky Marciano's signature wins come against a 32 and 33 year old Ezzard Charles, a 38 and 39 year old Joe Walcott, a 37 year old Joe Louis, and a 42 year old Archie Moore. Rocky never beat an All Time Great in his prime. That's not his fault but it's a fact nonetheless.

Ironically Larry Holmes never beat an All Time Great in his prime either.

IMHO I think a more honest argument is to say that Rocky and Larry cleaned out their divisions and it's not their fault that their signature wins were against past their prime fighters then to say a clearly past it Joe Louis was in his prime. By that logic one can say Larry beat a prime Muhammad Ali.

I just think Larry is too big, too skilled, too slick for Rocky. Rocky never faced a boxer with Larry's attributes in his prime

[Goodnight, Irene]

I have had this argument so many times. I might as well have it again. The laws of physiology are immutable. As you get older and especially in the mid and late thirties and especially forty you body experiences physical changes; your lens thicken, your reflexes slow, and the ratio of fat to muscle increases. Rocky Marciano's signature wins come against a 32 and 33 year old Ezzard Charles, a 38 and 39 year old Joe Walcott, a 37 year old Joe Louis, and a 42 year old Archie Moore. Rocky never beat an All Time Great in his prime. That's not his fault but it's a fact nonetheless.

Ironically Larry Holmes never beat an All Time Great in his prime either.

IMHO I think a more honest argument is to say that Rocky and Larry cleaned out their divisions and it's not their fault that their signature wins were against past their prime fighters then to say a clearly past it Joe Louis was in his prime. By that logic one can say Larry beat a prime Muhammad Ali.

I just think Larry is too big, too skilled, too slick for Rocky. Rocky never faced a boxer with Larry's attributes in his prime

Let me ask this of you, then, givrn their career parallels. Who accomplished more? Who would place higher with you, were you asked to compile a champion's list based purely on achievements?

[ThatOne]

I have had this argument so many times. I might as well have it again. The laws of physiology are immutable. As you get older and especially in the mid and late thirties and especially forty you body experiences physical changes; your lens thicken, your reflexes slow, and the ratio of fat to muscle increases. Rocky Marciano's signature wins come against a 32 and 33 year old Ezzard Charles, a 38 and 39 year old Joe Walcott, a 37 year old Joe Louis, and a 42 year old Archie Moore. Rocky never beat an All Time Great in his prime. That's not his fault but it's a fact nonetheless.

Ironically Larry Holmes never beat an All Time Great in his prime either.

IMHO I think a more honest argument is to say that Rocky and Larry cleaned out their divisions and it's not their fault that their signature wins were against past their prime fighters then to say a clearly past it Joe Louis was in his prime. By that logic one can say Larry beat a prime Muhammad Ali.

I just think Larry is too big, too skilled, too slick for Rocky. Rocky never faced a boxer with Larry's attributes in his prime

Let me ask this of you, then, givrn their career parallels. Who accomplished more? Who would place higher with you, were you asked to compile a champion's list based purely on achievements?

I think Rocky had the better resume but that doesn't mean Rocky would beat him in a head to head matchup.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Just asking about the accomplishments.

[Controversial]

I think Rocky had the better resume but that doesn't mean Rocky would beat him in a head to head matchup.

Exactly. The title says Marciano vs Holmes, not who had the best resume.

Taking it to the extreme Bruce Seldon won a version of the heavyweight title, plenty of better fighters than Seldon never even got a title shots. That doesn't mean Seldon was a better fighter just because he was 'world champ' for a period of time.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Take it easy, fellas. All I did was read the posting, which prompted me to ask ThatOne the question I did --- as I think it's open to debate between Holmes & Marciano on the subject of who achieved more.

Not contesting your predictions --- &, for the record, I fancy Holmes wins this (though I'm not as thoroughly convinced as some here)

[Controversial]

Take it easy, fellas. All I did was read the posting, which prompted me to ask ThatOne the question I did --- as I think it's open to debate between Holmes & Marciano on the subject of who achieved more.

Not contesting your predictions --- &, for the record, I fancy Holmes wins this (though I'm not as thoroughly convinced as some here)

Ha ha, sorry just re-read my post, didn't mean it to come across like that

I've just been looking at the sizes of the better names that Marciano fought, apart from Louis, height and reach wise they were smaller than I thought -

Joe Louis, 6"2" tall, 76" reach and 214lbs (aged 37)
Ezzard Charles, 6'00" tall, 73" reach and 187lbs (aged 33)
Jersey J Walcott, 6'00" tall, 74" reach and 197lbs (aged 38 and 39)
Archie Moore, 5'11" tall, 75" reach and 188lbs (aged 39)

Compare them to a peak Larry Holmes, 6'3", 81" reach around 215-225lbs then you can see how much harder the fight would be for Marciano.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Depends how well he can stay in Holmes' face. If he can, he'll win. If not, he's out of it.

I tend to find the latter scenario more plausible. One look at that Snipes (who was not a real puncher) moment, though, &, boy, you'd have to be at least a little nervous if you had money on this one

[ThatOne]

Take it easy, fellas. All I did was read the posting, which prompted me to ask ThatOne the question I did --- as I think it's open to debate between Holmes & Marciano on the subject of who achieved more.

Not contesting your predictions --- &, for the record, I fancy Holmes wins this (though I'm not as thoroughly convinced as some here)

Ha ha, sorry just re-read my post, didn't mean it to come across like that

I've just been looking at the sizes of the better names that Marciano fought, apart from Louis, height and reach wise they were smaller than I thought -

Joe Louis, 6"2" tall, 76" reach and 214lbs (aged 37)
Ezzard Charles, 6'00" tall, 73" reach and 187lbs (aged 33)
Jersey J Walcott, 6'00" tall, 74" reach and 197lbs (aged 38 and 39)
Archie Moore, 5'11" tall, 75" reach and 188lbs (aged 39)

Compare them to a peak Larry Holmes, 6'3", 81" reach around 215-225lbs then you can see how much harder the fight would be for Marciano.

You better be careful. Rocky fans will tell you how big Carmine Vingo and Johnny Shkor was as if they were great fighters.