Tommy Burns vs Bill Squires (1907)

[HomicideHenry]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9R7IMsOiftE

Burns at 5'7" and less than 180 pounds was a 10-1 underdog against the brawler from Down Under, who was coming off an impressive 20 fight win streak in his native Australia. Many believed him to be too strong, too tough for Burns and that only Jeffries could have beaten Squires. The result of this encounter was one of the fastest knockouts in history. Shame Burns is remembered for the Johnson loss and not his accomplishments from middleweight to heavyweight, he was truly the first to challenge the world and social barriers.

[Robinson]

What a different era.

How exciting it would have been,

[dempseyfire]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9R7IMsOiftE

Burns at 5'7" and less than 180 pounds was a 10-1 underdog against the brawler from Down Under, who was coming off an impressive 20 fight win streak in his native Australia. Many believed him to be too strong, too tough for Burns and that only Jeffries could have beaten Squires. The result of this encounter was one of the fastest knockouts in history. Shame Burns is remembered for the Johnson loss and not his accomplishments from middleweight to heavyweight, he was truly the first to challenge the world and social barriers.

One reason the Squire victory is not remembered as a great win is b/c Aussie Bill proved to be simply a regional fighter and not actually world class. He wasn't even the best Heavyweight in Australia at the time . .that honor would go to Bill Lang.

But yes Burns really did help cement the title as a truly 'world' title. I think Burns is often unfairly forgotten b/c he's ranked as a heavyweight, but really should be considered a light heavyweight who like Tunney won the heavyweight title. Even his best career win (O'Brian) was over a fellow light heavyweight.

[donnellon]

Burns wasn't a 10/1 underdog just slightly less than evens.
Lang wasn't the best in Australia until later.
IMO Burns best win was over Hart.

[Robinson]

Burns was a MW if anything as well.
Most the men from this era were not actual HWs
or even modern day CW's.

You did have naturally big men no doubt, but
then you also had tough lil SOBs like Burns that
just packed a wallop and could handle themselves
well.

Until they met a more talented and bigger man..

[HomicideHenry]

Burns was, imho, one of the greatest pound for pound fighters of all time. From middleweight to heavyweight he excelled quite well considering his impish size. He proved against much taller and heavier men to be crafty, fast and hard hitting. His footwork, the way he darted in and out of range, made alot of opponents look like amateurs. He is often over looked, because many dont realize the truth behind many of his opponents, whom they figured were mere fodder. Jem Roche, for example, for many decades was considered a bum, however, historians have found that he had at least 30 bouts, rather than the handful originally given to him. Burns kayoed him inside a minute. Same goes for Gunner Moir, who was one of the great spoilers of the age, making upsets against Billy Wells. Ditto for Jewey Smith, for his record is also incomplete, so how can you truly judge Burns on that fact?

What's amazing to me is the lack of faith the American public had for Burns. Squires, who did have an impressive knockout streak for an era that mainly had no-decision and no-contest results, was mainly a slugger with little else to offer against a veteran of wars like Burns. Still, Burns was the underdog at 10 to 7 odds (my mistake for the 10-1 odds). He kayoed Squires with little effort, and it surprised and shocked many, who believed that the Aussie could only lose to Jim Jeffries (whom Squires originally called out, but when Jeffries laughed at him, he chose Burns).

What's striking as well is referee Jim Jeffries. Not only does he tower easily over the two combatants, he stood out amongst the fans when they stormed the ring at the finish. The man was truly a giant for the era, his enormity was something to behold on film. Three years later, he would finally come out of retirement to face Jack Johnson.

Back to Burns. Tommy must be given credit for truly being the first heavyweight champion to challenge the best around the globe. The champions of Ireland, England, Africa, and Australia fell to his feet. It makes me wonder, had he given Sam McVey the shot instead of Johnson (like he originally planned on doing), would he have beaten the ponderous McVey, and would we even be talking about Jack Johnson today?

Many criticized Burns unfairly for his loss to Johnson, which is a shame. The one real blemish of his heavyweight career was against a top five heavyweight champion in Johnson, and he broke Johnson's ribs in the process of losing. It's nothing to be ashamed of, he lasted longer and was more competitive with Johnson than what Ketchell and Jeffries were able to do.

[dempseyfire]

When did McVey become 'ponderous'?

I would make Sam a solid favorite vs Burns. A lot of the national champs from overseas were just not very good. Ali for example doesn't get huge accolades for beating Mildenburger, London and Coopman . . .I don't see why one should exaggerate Burns beating Moir, Squires and Roche.

[HomicideHenry]

The difference between your comparison to Ali's fights with Mildenberger and Dunne and others, is that Burns was fighting the best contenders of the age. Gunner Moir was considered either the #1 or #2 man in England, Roche was the #1 man in Ireland, Squires was considered one of the best in Australia, and Bill Lang was the #1 in Australia---and Jewey Smith was considered a French and African titlist.

Irregardless, I believe Burns would have beaten McVey, who was the least of the Jeanette/Johnson/Langford trio, and was primarily just a power puncher and nothing more. He was easily schooled by the other three more times than not. There isn't much evidence to prove really that McVey could have beaten Burns, imho.

[dempseyfire]

McVey beat superior heavyweights to Burns (Wills, Langford, Jeannette, Clarke, Martin) . . if he was just a crude slugger he would have not had the career he did.

Coopman was the #1 man in France, Dunn was #1 in England . . .that doesn't make them suddenly top 5 in the world. Then, as in during Ali's day, the best heavyweights in the world were in North America.

Again, I like Burns, he was an excellent light heavyweight. He probably gets sorely overlooked when discussing PFP punchers . . he's up there with Langford, Fitz and Satterfield IMO.
But he was only a good heavyweight. He happened to come around at the right time, beat the crude Hart, and then racked up a string of defenses against other light heavyweights and country titlists who were in over their head.

[Collins2000]

---and Jewey Smith was considered a French and African titlist.

That is news to me.

He was a white guy from London.

Where do you get this stuff?

[Adamj1987]

decent fight for the time

[Ambling Alp]

I think Burns was a very good heavyweight, though not a great one. I agree with demspeyfire that most of his opponents in title fights were not that good.
Squires, Moir,Palmer, Roche, Smith were not world class fighters.
Lang was a little better but certainly nothing special.

However, the win over Marvin Hart was a pretty good win. Hart had beat Gus Ruhlin who was a world class fighter as well as Sandy Ferguson who was decent. O'Brien wasn't really a heavyweight but there were probably only a handful of heavyweights at the time who would have beat him. You could also make the case that the win over Flynn was respectable even though Flynn also was small.

[HomicideHenry]

---and Jewey Smith was considered a French and African titlist.

That is news to me.

He was a white guy from London.

Where do you get this stuff?

Smith's record is incomplete. He was billed as the French and African champion. Some believe his championship status was from his amateur days. However this is unproven. Like Jem Roche, Smith may have had more fights than given credit for.

[donnellon]

Jewey Smith was a poor fighter, less than Roche, Moir, Palmer even. He was champion of nowhere.
BTW Coopman wasn't French, he was Belgian.

[Collins2000]

---and Jewey Smith was considered a French and African titlist.

That is news to me.

He was a white guy from London.

Where do you get this stuff?

Smith's record is incomplete. He was billed as the French and African champion. Some believe his championship status was from his amateur days. However this is unproven. Like Jem Roche, Smith may have had more fights than given credit for.

Please provide your sources.

[HomicideHenry]

Its on his damn bio on this very site. WTF u harassing me for Collins?

Btw I make my pro debut in February

[Collins2000]

Its on his damn bio on this very site. WTF u harassing me for Collins?

Hilarious.

Btw I make my pro debut in February

Unlikely.

[HomicideHenry]

When I do, you'll be kissing my ass