Harold Johnson vs John Henry Lewis

[Grimm]

How do you see this one turning out? Two great underrated lightheavy weight champs?

I'm kind of split on the outcome of this one. They were both very skilled fighters but I would have to say Henry would probably have the advantage at punching power.

[TheGreatA]

Difficult to say for me, having seen a lot of footage on Harold Johnson but only John Henry Lewis's 1 round KO loss to Joe Louis. Harold Johnson was a textbook boxer, a true technician, but Lewis's power could very well give him the edge. You couldn't really outbox Harold, you had to knock him out.

[dempseyfire]

Hard to say, as there's practically zero footage I know of a peak Lewis and there's much more of Johnson . . .both guys had outstanding resumes. I think Lewis is somewhat of a forgotten fighter but with wins over Rosenbloom, Braddock, Tiger Jack Fox, Al Gainer, Jock McaVoy, Elmer Ray and Bob Godwin, Lewis showed he was a fine boxer with a very good punch that could hurt heavyweights.

To me Braddock's win over Lewis in their rematch is more impressive than winning the title vs a disinterested, clowning Baer.

[granberry]

Difficult to say for me, having seen a lot of footage on Harold Johnson but only John Henry Lewis's 1 round KO loss to Joe Louis. Harold Johnson was a textbook boxer, a true technician, but Lewis's power could very well give him the edge. You couldn't really outbox Harold, you had to knock him out.

Could John Henry Lewis beat Eddie Machen, Nino Valdez, Arturo Godoy, etc. like Harold Johnson did?

Red Burman, who fought Lewis when he (Burman) was a young fighter, told me in detail about Lewis and what it was like to fight him.

I knew Harold Johnson for years, and we spent hours going over his fights and lots of other fights and fighters.

John Henry Lewis fought a careful, safe boxing style fight in his title defense against Jock McAvoy, who wasn't really a full grown lightheavy--more a middleweight. McAvoy was known as a puncher, and Lewis played it very safe.

That's the only fight of Lewis I have seen except the Joe Louis one.

[jimglen]

Granberry, have you got the McAvoy vs John Henry Lewis fight or perhaps you can get it?

These fights, the actual reports, descriptions and commentaries are the only way I can presently gage and visualize my grandads fighting style and ability!

Roderick vs Armstrong
McAvoy vs Jack Peterson, Len Harvey and in Ireland against the Frenchman.
Mills vs Woodcock, Olek, Lesnevich, Marshall, Bueno, Ralph
Vince Hawkins - Pathe clips
D. Turpin vs Cerdan
R.Turpin vs Robinson and Cockell and a of couple others
Don Cockell vs Marciano and Mathews...

all these British fighters and others, along with the reports and descriptions of Gilroy as a fighter are a great help indeed, but would sure love to find some footage, it's out there I'm sure!

Anyhow can you get the McAvoy vs John Henry Lewis fight?

Cheers, Jim.

[granberry]

Jimglen,

I saw it on some odd website---not youtube.

Also a tape of McAvoy knocking out a French fighter.

I should have saved the url.

I just looked a bit on google and can't find it. Sorry.

[jaclem2]

...like most here, the only viewing i have of lewis is the one round kayo by joe louis. that was the only time he was knocked out in over 100 fights, though and his was his last fight....which joe gave him so lewis could pick up a much needed purse.

he must have been a superb boxer, fleet of foot and clever.

i have to go with johnson here, though. i'm surprised to see the lewis people picking him because of his power, when johnson was almost certainly the harder puncher. he often fought in a conservative mode, but when he opened up he was a good puncher. john henry might have out sped harold, but i think the latter would have successfully set some traps for him.

this fight would have been a good one for the real students of the sport...two of the most outstanding boxers in their weight division.

[granberry]

John Henry Lewis was going blind when he fought Joe Louis.

[Broncano]

Could John Henry Lewis beat Eddie Machen, Nino Valdez, Arturo Godoy, etc. like Harold Johnson did?

Red Burman, who fought Lewis when he (Burman) was a young fighter, told me in detail about Lewis and what it was like to fight him.

I knew Harold Johnson for years, and we spent hours going over his fights and lots of other fights and fighters.

John Henry Lewis fought a careful, safe boxing style fight in his title defense against Jock McAvoy, who wasn't really a full grown lightheavy--more a middleweight. McAvoy was known as a puncher, and Lewis played it very safe.

That's the only fight of Lewis I have seen except the Joe Louis one.

Gran, did Harold ever give you his assessment on Mauro Mina?

They were scheduled to fight in June of 63, but Mina injured his eye and Pastrano stepped in with the ensuing fiasco that followed.

[granberry]

Could John Henry Lewis beat Eddie Machen, Nino Valdez, Arturo Godoy, etc. like Harold Johnson did?

Red Burman, who fought Lewis when he (Burman) was a young fighter, told me in detail about Lewis and what it was like to fight him.

I knew Harold Johnson for years, and we spent hours going over his fights and lots of other fights and fighters.

John Henry Lewis fought a careful, safe boxing style fight in his title defense against Jock McAvoy, who wasn't really a full grown lightheavy--more a middleweight. McAvoy was known as a puncher, and Lewis played it very safe.

That's the only fight of Lewis I have seen except the Joe Louis one.

Gran, did Harold ever give you his assessment on Mauro Mina?

They were scheduled to fight in June of 63, but Mina injured his eye and Pastrano stepped in with the ensuing fiasco that followed.

The only mention of Mina by Johnson I heard was when he was telling me about the way they confused him by switching opponents on him for that fight.

If I remember correctly he said he was first supposed to fight Henry Hank, then Mina, then Pastrano at the last minute.

That is the only time I heard him mention Mina's name.

He was telling me how he trained specifically for an opponent and that it was annoying to have to switch and then switch again and then switch a third time what he was preparing for as they jerked him around with the opponents.

Johnson had done something that his manager Pat 'Steaks' Olivieri wasn't happy with (to put it very mildly).

That fight was an arrangement to have Johnson lose his title as a way of getting back at him, rather than killing him.

I heard about that in detail from Mickey Grandinetti, longtime Philly cutman (best cutman I ever saw).
They knew the whole time that Pastrano was going to be the opponent, but jerked Johnson around with the other two first.

Notice that Johnson never got a return fight for the title he 'lost.'


Johnson against Mina would have been a very high level boxing match. A pity it didn't take place.

[Broncano]

I think the order of scheduled opponents was Mina first, then Hank, then Pastrano

Also, notice how Mina was never given a shot against Pastrano after he resumed fighting in late 63. Instead, Goyo Peralta (whom Mina had knocked out senseless) got the chance.

Indeed we were robbed of a great Johnson-Mina matchup. I think the man from Philadelphia would have prevailed though. Had Mina been given a shot at Dundee's boy however, it would have been quite a different story. On an even playground, that is.

[jaclem2]

..thanks granberry for the reminder about lewis' being near blind in that fight...and probably some others at the tail end of his career.

[granberry]

I think the order of scheduled opponents was Mina first, then Hank, then Pastrano

Also, notice how Mina was never given a shot against Pastrano after he resumed fighting in late 63. Instead, Goyo Peralta (whom Mina had knocked out senseless) got the chance.

Indeed we were robbed of a great Johnson-Mina matchup. I think the man from Philadelphia would have prevailed though. Had Mina been given a shot at Dundee's boy however, it would have been quite a different story. On an even playground, that is.

Mina was far superior to Pastrano.

I think in a fight in the US Mina would not be able get a decision against Johnson.

As I said, that would have been a very high level lightheavyweight fight.

Did you see Mina fight against Bob Foster?
That is impressive the way he came out ahead against Foster.

Johnson's comment to me about Foster was, "Yeah, he was great when he was the one doing the hitting."

I took that to mean that Johnson thought that if Foster was facing a lightheavyweight opponent as dangerous as Johnson or Archie Moore, he may have been in a different state of mind pyschologically.
Like Foster admitted he was (intimidated to to some degree) when he fought certain heavyweights.

There is a strong state of mind or psychological factor in boxing at times.

Like Buster Douglas was in the right state of mind when he fought Tyson.

Doc Kearns tried to drive Jack Dempsey nuts before the Tunney fights with a concentrated form of harassment-- process servers etc.

Jimmy Young thought Foreman was "stupid,"--and so he couldn't possibly lose to someone who was "stupid."

A few months after that fight Young was talking about the fact that Foreman was "stupid." I said, "Come on, he's no stupider than anyone else."

But Young insisted on that and wouldn't let go.
Apparently it was an important factor in his being able to beat Foreman.

There are fights that are decided by the state of mind of the fighters at the time of the fight.
Jack McKinney told me about how Joe Pollino got Giardello ready for the Fullmer title fight. Pollino hired Jimmy Hegerty (sp) as a sparring partner for Giardello since his style was somewhat similar to Fullmer's.

Giardello was doing terribly in the sparring against Hegerty and was in a very bad state of mind before the fight.

Pollino took Hegerty to town, to a whorehouse, then brought him straight back to training camp from there and had him immediately spar with Giardello. Giardello did much better against the worn out Hegerty, and Pollino said to him "You've reached your peak. I don't want you to spar any more until the fight."
So Giardello went into the fight in a much improved state of mind. To Pollino that was more important than any training in the last few days before the fight.

[TheGreatA]

I think the order of scheduled opponents was Mina first, then Hank, then Pastrano

Also, notice how Mina was never given a shot against Pastrano after he resumed fighting in late 63. Instead, Goyo Peralta (whom Mina had knocked out senseless) got the chance.

Indeed we were robbed of a great Johnson-Mina matchup. I think the man from Philadelphia would have prevailed though. Had Mina been given a shot at Dundee's boy however, it would have been quite a different story. On an even playground, that is.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=3b ... %2C2195067

According to this article Mina wasn't allowed to fight in the US due to a detached retina. Peralta then later won a rematch with Mina, ending whatever title hopes he may have had.

[granberry]

I think the order of scheduled opponents was Mina first, then Hank, then Pastrano

Also, notice how Mina was never given a shot against Pastrano after he resumed fighting in late 63. Instead, Goyo Peralta (whom Mina had knocked out senseless) got the chance.

Indeed we were robbed of a great Johnson-Mina matchup. I think the man from Philadelphia would have prevailed though. Had Mina been given a shot at Dundee's boy however, it would have been quite a different story. On an even playground, that is.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=3b ... %2C2195067

According to this article Mina wasn't allowed to fight in the US due to a detached retina. Peralta then later won a rematch with Mina, ending whatever title hopes he may have had.

To bad Mina didn't have the connections Sugar Ray Leonard had.

Leonard fought in the US after having a detached retina operation.

[Broncano]

[granberry]

Broncano,

What can you tell us about the Bob Foster--Mauro Mina fights?

[Broncano]

Foster barely had a dozen fights when he went down to Peru to fight Mina but to this day he claims that that the bell was rung early when he had Mauro in trouble and rung late when the Peruvian was rallying.

Truth of the matter is that every newspaper article and every person who was actually there (except for Foster of course, whom I had the chance to meet in Canastota a few years back and kept his rigged timekeeper story) has Mina dominating every single round and even knocking him down on the second.

Unfortunately, film of that bout is yet to be unearthed, but from what I have read and heard every round was a repetition of the other with Mina imposing his superior stamina, crowding Foster on the inside and outpunching him thoroughly. In the middle rounds Bob tagged the Peruvian with that brutal right hand of his... but Mauro kept moving forward. He was no defensive wizard but his superb chin more than made up for it. He never visited the canvas in 58 professional contests.

I have a great picture of that fight which shows Mina towering over Foster who is laid out on his back. I'll scan it and post it here soon.

[jaclem2]

...back to harold johnson...i held him in such high regard that when i watched him on tv against nino valdez....who was a giant compared to johnson...in height (i think) and certainly in weight...i was surprised at how good valdez looked and though losing the decision (correctly) did so well for the ten rounds.

[granberry]

Foster barely had a dozen fights when he went down to Peru to fight Mina but to this day he claims that that the bell was rung early when he had Mauro in trouble and rung late when the Peruvian was rallying.

Truth of the matter is that every newspaper article and every person who was actually there (except for Foster of course, whom I had the chance to meet in Canastota a few years back and kept his rigged timekeeper story) has Mina dominating every single round and even knocking him down on the second.

Unfortunately, film of that bout is yet to be unearthed, but from what I have read and heard every round was a repetition of the other with Mina imposing his superior stamina, crowding Foster on the inside and outpunching him thoroughly. In the middle rounds Bob tagged the Peruvian with that brutal right hand of his... but Mauro kept moving forward. He was no defensive wizard but his superb chin more than made up for it. He never visited the canvas in 58 professional contests.

I have a great picture of that fight which shows Mina towering over Foster who is laid out on his back. I'll scan it and post it here soon.

Broncano,

Please post that picture.

That is amazing that Mina was never knocked down in his entire pro career.

And look at the list of those he beat--

Bob Foster
Eddie Cotton (twice)
Sixto Rodriguez (twice)
Henry Hank
Von Clay
Jesse Bowdry
Sonny Ray
Allan Thomas