Michael Smith's United States Senior Rankings

[Jma05]

yes but many will tell you the decision at the ringside worlds with kisner and charles was just a straight robbery and alot of people will agree wih that trust me. samuels had a tough time with bissett who kisner totally outlassed at the age of 17. so if you wanna go score for over who did better against the other person then there you have it. also samues loses to a guy that is not even in top 10 in nation. look at kisners loses when he was a open boxer. paul koon a very questionable decision its on youtube look for yourself. jerimiah graziano when he was only 17 where everyone said the fight could go either way and some people even beg to differ that kisner won the bout. and in that sitution alot of people thought kisner won. then another questionable decision against shimmel where about 80% of people thought kisner won. then the worst at ringside when kisner boxed charles which was a straight robbery. when ever the boxers are coming out of th ring and the crowd on that side of the ring boo"s theres your answer. but it came out to be a 3-2 decision for charles somhow. so thats kisners 4 loses in the nation were everyone of them was questionable. and if you dont believe so just ask around and im sure you will get your answer and it will be the same as im telling you now. kisners only other lose was at the aiba youth worlds where he lost to outstanding international boxer ivan dychko of kazakstan 5-1. so if you look at the facts kisner has lost for times in the nation but all 4 were very disputed along the way. on the side of the loses kisner has wins over many names such as michael bissett, robert jekabson, hasim rahman jr, akeem holland, jovante charles, alex guerrero and even usa star lenroy thompson who in my opinion would make samuels look like a fool. so you really have to sit down and think. all of his loses that are contriversial all come to the best fighters in the nation which koon and shimmell being the number 1 guy and graziano being number 2 and charles being th number 3 guy in the nation and the other lose which was international was to dychko who is considered one of the top seniors in the world right now . not to a guy who just makes it to nationals such as what happened to samuels in the golden gloves

[Dennis]

Jma05 - why are you debating Nick Kisner? He turned pro so he isn't a factor in the amateur scene anymore. BTW - I beg to differ about my son's bout with him. I didn't hear any boo's when the decision was announced so clearly the majority of the crowd did not think Kisner had won. In fact I heard from many people who thought Jordan had won more decisively than the score indicated and thought it should have been somewhere around 15-6. Don't get me wrong Nick was a good boxer and I wanted him to stay amateur, but he didn't.

[Dennis]

I agree international competition is needed more than anything. But if you go down all these names, I bet 4 or less in each weight division has international experience. I can probably count the boxers that have had international matches, and I bet it is around 30 of these boxers. If more of these boxers are able to, USA will get multiple medals in 2012.

Yes, our boxers definitely need more international experience.

[Dennis]

The USA is so large geographically that our boxers can't even get to a central hub for training without most of them traveling by air. Colorado Springs isn't exactly centrally located, but even if our Olympic training facilities were further east, it still wouldn't make much of a difference. As it is now boxers from the west coast have to fly to the Springs as do boxers from the midwest and eastern parts of the U.S.

Great Britain has there training facilities in Sheffield which is within 300 miles of the vast majority of the country. Their national team trains from Monday through Thursday in Sheffield and then they leave Thursday at 12:30pm to go home until returning to Sheffield Monday at 2:30pm. That works in GB, but wouldn't work in the U.S. due to the cost of travel to get the boxers home and back to the OTC every week.

In the U.S. the boxers will have to go to the OTC for slightly longer periods and not as frequently.

[Jma05]

now see dennis your already wrong and let me prove it to you. i did not say anything about them booing the jordan fight did i. look back i was talking about the javonte charles fight you see at the ringside . and honesty dennis i didnt hear so many say your son won and on top of it should have won more descively. i heard many had thought kisner had won the bout by a good 5 points. everyone i met said the same jordan won the first then kisner came out working alot in the next two where he was not awarded alot of points which left alot of people puzzzled. many people came up to kisner that night and in the airport the next morning saying what i said. your son is a good boxer and i wish you all well. but my opinion will not change like many others kisner clearly won the bout. i myself had the bout 15-9. but who knows. it wont change much now but that is mine and alot of other people's opinion just as well.

[Dennis]

now see dennis your already wrong and let me prove it to you. i did not say anything about them booing the jordan fight did i. look back i was talking about the javonte charles fight you see at the ringside . and honesty dennis i didnt hear so many say your son won and on top of it should have won more descively. i heard many had thought kisner had won the bout by a good 5 points. everyone i met said the same jordan won the first then kisner came out working alot in the next two where he was not awarded alot of points which left alot of people puzzzled. many people came up to kisner that night and in the airport the next morning saying what i said. your son is a good boxer and i wish you all well. but my opinion will not change like many others kisner clearly won the bout. i myself had the bout 15-9. but who knows. it wont change much now but that is mine and alot of other people's opinion just as well.

If Nick thought he won, he should have stuck around in the amateurs and boxed Jordan again. I did see them spar at camp in Colo Springs and Jordan didn't have any problems with Nick. I want tough competition for Jordan so that he gets better. I have Jordan spar as many tough boxers as possible.

[Dennis]

Jma05 - I was in the corner and saw Jordan vs Nick from a very close position, where were you? As Mel always says, you also have to remember that the judges have a different view and at least 3 out of 5 have to press the button within a second for a punch to count. There were many that Jordan landed that didn't get scored. I would say that you and I aren't going to agree on this issue. I thought Jordan won clearly and so did the 5 judges sitting right up close to the ring.

[teasy24]

I was going to say the same thing.. Why debate Nick when he is a non factor as to who is number 1 in the USA right now and a future olympian? Now I will say he and Jordan was close, and I do remember a few getting upset back at the dorms, but I still thought Jordan won, and I was sittings probably 30 rows up, I don't remember it was like 8 months ago. Anyways, Nick lost all these close bouts, I get it, controversial.. What bouts aren't when you see a score 9-8, 16-13, 20-20 (3-2), I mean so many of these bouts go down to the wire in amateur boxing. My point I am making for Samuels is, we have no way of seeing regional matchups live in person, unless our region basically, and we do not know how close the bouts are or if they really lost. But at Nationals, Samuels did not lose a single bout in 2009, (5-0), but because of the DQ, left him losing, officially, in the USA's. Oh, and he beat one of the top 17 year olds in the Country in Temple from St. Louis. (Who I left out earlier when I was giving my shout out to Kansas/Missouri)

[Jma05]

yes but the loses were very obvious. it was not like nick and th fights he ost were dead even he clearly won all of them in most peoples eyes. and what does seeding got to do with anything when you lose in regionals he still lost. same thing at the national tournaments that was a non sense thing to say. and why am i debating kisner. well when you say samuls was one bad dq awy from finals meaning all he had to do was not get dq'ed then he would have been in the finals. and if you think about it thats somewhat disrespectful acting like kisner was not even a factor in that. who in my opinion will beat samuels and who straight out just beat shimmell. and you guys can sit here and say to your selves well i thought it was close or many say jordan won more decisevly. bs is what that is. wake up and smell the roses and admit kisner won that bout. i tried to be nice about it but everyone said that kisner won the bout clearly without a question. but your right hes pro now so ill leave it alone and well see what happens between shimmll and samuels. i predict shimmell by a good 5. my final post about this conversation

[Jma05]

oh sorry one more about dennis post since i didnt see it. you also know all 5 judges dont have to have one guy win on computer scoring. and where does it matter where im sitting the pont is kisner clearly out pointed him. and you act like kisner is scared and turned pro cause of jordan . let me wake you up dennis to sunlight kisner will fight your boy everyday of the week and twice on sunday. nick doesnt care. its just him and his father turned pro cause they thought it was the right time. and for the sparring thing nick told me himself the sparring was the same thing jordan was landing some nice sraigh punches with his robotic style and kisner was landing hooks with his awkward style and see thats the thing about kisner he is very honest. i have known him ever since he was little. he told me himself that the sparring was about even since hee said it was like only 3 rounds that were a minute and a half. but nick himself told me then and will tell me now and will tell anyone trust me he clearly beat jordan plain and simple. and nick still clearly believes he is better then jordan and he is not mean about it he just truely believes it. nick is very honest i have known him for years now. and many will tell you hes a very good kid and was raised right but nick will also be very brutally honest with you to. and kisner still says that there is no doubt he clearly beat jordan. but this is my last comment good luck to shimmell and samuels in the nationals this year

[teasy24]

I never said anything about seeding. If you go back and read I said this debate is over who I think is the best in the USA and what others think and it just can't be Kisner at 201 because of him being pro. And I never wanted to disrespect Kisner or Shimmell, I just said if Samuels had not been DQ'd he would have won the tournament, and people say things like this all the time. I never acted like he automatically will walk through the tournament, I just said he would be the number 1 guy right now if the DQ didn't happen, in my opinion, because I believe he would have won the tournament! And good luck to Nick Kisner as a pro, he should do well.

[Dennis]

I never said anything about seeding. If you go back and read I said this debate is over who I think is the best in the USA and what others think and it just can't be Kisner at 201 because of him being pro. And I never wanted to disrespect Kisner or Shimmell, I just said if Samuels had not been DQ'd he would have won the tournament, and people say things like this all the time. I never acted like he automatically will walk through the tournament, I just said he would be the number 1 guy right now if the DQ didn't happen, in my opinion, because I believe he would have won the tournament! And good luck to Nick Kisner as a pro, he should do well.

Teasy - I understand your opinion, which is just that, your opinion. I think Jordan would have won if he and Samuels had met, but they didn't b/c of the DQ and Samuels would still have had to beat Kisner. You think he would and I think it would be a good bout and could go either way. I do know that you and Jma05 disagree on that one. Jma05 faults you for having an opinion and yet he talks about how Nick has never lost in his opinion. I find it funny how some people get upset with someone for expressing an opinion and then spout theirs like its gospel.

[Jma05]

dennis i have an opinion like you do. and dennis ask around its just not me that didnt think nick lost those 4 fights about 80% people say the same thing. im asking you to go around ask people why dont you so you know that its just not me. at least some people agree with my opinion unlike yours to where you put your son had a close bout with clemente russo. your son did very well but to that was not close what so ever. but you are a father so i understand your point. and i really do wish the best for you and your son many people talk about you guys being good people with nick being one of them. and since hes honest i take his word you guys are good people. but dennnis remember its just a opinion even wih what i thought about the russo fight. its just a opinion so no hard feelings threw this little disscussion right. i have no hard feelings what so ever i was just trying to state a point which is my opinon and it thats yours and teasy2 opinion thts fine with me good luck to you dennis and jordan at the usa nationals

[Dennis]

dennis i have an opinion like you do. and dennis ask around its just not me that didnt think nick lost those 4 fights about 80% people say the same thing. im asking you to go around ask people why dont you so you know that its just not me. at least some people agree with my opinion unlike yours to where you put your son had a close bout with clemente russo. your son did very well but to that was not close what so ever. but you are a father so i understand your point. and i really do wish the best for you and your son many people talk about you guys being good people with nick being one of them. and since hes honest i take his word you guys are good people. but dennnis remember its just a opinion even wih what i thought about the russo fight. its just a opinion so no hard feelings threw this little disscussion right. i have no hard feelings what so ever i was just trying to state a point which is my opinon and it thats yours and teasy2 opinion thts fine with me good luck to you dennis and jordan at the usa nationals

I readily admit Jordan lost to Russo ('07 World Champion). Jordan was competitive though and knew that he was boxing in Italy where Russo is a superstar. Jordan has improved a lot since that bout.
In regard to asking people about Jordan v Nick, I have and the dozens of people I talked to all thought Jordan defeated Nick easily including a bunch of the top boxers who were there. To be fair, I decided to watch the bout again so I just went and watched the video on USA Boxing's website. From the camera's view, I think Jordan won decisively. I'm hard pressed to see more than a half dozen punches by Nick score. Remember the definition of a scoring blow (see next entry). I also see at least 20 punches by Jordan score. Go ahead and watch the video and tell me the time of the video when you see punches land. Their bout starts at 175.52 of the video. I don't have any hard feelings and I try to give honest assessments. I just never thought that bout was all that close so I even went back and watched it again. My opinion didn't change.

[Dennis]

Definition of a scoring blow and a non-scoring blow from the 2008 USA Boxing rulebook-revised in 2009 version:
i. Scoring blows. During each round, a judge shall assess the
respective scores of each boxer according to the number of blows
obtained by each. In order to have scoring value, each blow must
have the force of the body behind it, and without being blocked or
guarded, land directly with the knuckle part of the closed glove of
either hand on any part of the front or sides of the head or body
above the belt. Blows landing as described above are scoring
blows. Any blow landing as a result of a foul will not count as a
scoring blow. The value of blows scored in a rally of infighting
shall be assessed at the end of such rally and shall be credited to
the boxer who has had the better of the exchanges according to the
degree of said boxer’s superiority.
ii. Non-scoring blows. Non-scoring blows are blows which are struck
by a boxer:
1. while infringing any of the rules;
2. with the side, heel, or inside of the glove or with the open
glove or any part other than the knuckle part of the closed
glove;
3. which lands on the arms;
4. which merely connect, without the weight of the body or
shoulder.

[Jma05]

well again you say the fight you guys won nick and his people thought he won. and again many people thought from what i hear kisner won to. and it proves from what teasy said hen he went back to the dorms many people thought kisner won to so its obvious i just didnt hear from other pople theres another part of proof where another man heard it to. so it is what it is

[DCAmateurBoxing]

Jma05 - why are you debating Nick Kisner? He turned pro so he isn't a factor in the amateur scene anymore. BTW - I beg to differ about my son's bout with him. I didn't hear any boo's when the decision was announced so clearly the majority of the crowd did not think Kisner had won. In fact I heard from many people who thought Jordan had won more decisively than the score indicated and thought it should have been somewhere around 15-6. Don't get me wrong Nick was a good boxer and I wanted him to stay amateur, but he didn't.

Nick is my boy. Always like him but he didn't beat Jordan. I think he didn't engage enough and I would have like to see him let his hands go more.

[Dennis]

well again you say the fight you guys won nick and his people thought he won. and again many people thought from what i hear kisner won to. and it proves from what teasy said hen he went back to the dorms many people thought kisner won to so its obvious i just didnt hear from other pople theres another part of proof where another man heard it to. so it is what it is

Just because two people heard it doesn't mean that the majority of people were saying it. I just watched the video several more times and I don't see what you saw. Have you watched the video recently? Anyway we will just have to disagree about it. I am more concerned about future bouts than what has happened in the past.

By the way, Jordan has had his share of close losses. In the 2004 National JO semifinals he lost on a tie-breaker to the eventual gold medalist. In the 2006 National GG finals he lost a 3-2 split decision. He lost another 3-2 split decision in the 2008 National GG semi-finals to the boxer who won the tourney. Those are the types of bouts that develop a boxer and show their true character. Do they quit the sport, stop training, or continue to complain after losing or do they train harder and come back and win in the future. I'm proud of Jordan for what he has accomplished.

[Jma05]

of course your gonna think he won your supposed to hes your son. but theres proff right in front of you that the majority of the people thought nick won and if you cant see it your blind. and nick never complains he just always says everything happens for a reason. and i have seen the fight a few times like many others and they have all the said the same thing kisner clearly won. but im not gonna keep on disagreeing with ya. again its just an opinion right? well good luck to you all

[Dennis]

My last post on the issue. Jma05-just b/c you and 1 other person heard a few people complain, including the boxer who lost, does not mean the majority agreed with you. I have talked to dozens of people who disagreed with you. I will sit down & watch the video with anyone & score it.

[Jma05]

this is what im trying to tell you. it wasnt just a few people. around the nation it has been talked about. im not gonna change your mine but its the truth just ask around outside your little amatuer boxing buddies and youll se the truth just go on and ask its not a secret

[Dennis]

I did talk to people from the DC area, Philly, Cleveland, CA, MN, WI, TX, FL, etc & many weren't even people I knew before hand.

[Jma05]

must have been diffrent people we talked to then

[DCAmateurBoxing]

Nick did not win. I say we put that to bed. I'm a Nick fan, but he didn't win that bout. It was clear, but I think a lot of people like Nick (rightly so) so that may influence what they think they saw. But it really doesn't matter, only the actual decision matters. I'm done too.

[Jma05]

ok but wht im trying to say is im not the only one that thought kisner won a hand full of people thought kisner won. and theres proof another man that is debating against kisner said it as well. when he went back to the dorms there was many people mad about the decision. so why put it to sleep just because of your opinion. i didnt know what you say goes. im sorry for questioning your power of thought. but the point is many from what i have heard thought kisner won. even though i havent heard it from what the other side says many thought jordan won. but it is where it stays at so im done with the convo in my opinion and many others no matter what anyone says kisner won the bout. but opinions are opinions