Jimmy Young vs Wladimir Klitschko

[HomicideHenry]

Alot of people are clowning on Klitschko, saying Young would not only win but would put Wladimir on his head. I want honest opinions on this hypothetical. Scheduled for 12 rounds.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Really boring fight, Wlad will refuse to engage and hold Young when he advances. Probably take Wlad by a hair in a typically lame performance.

[ThatOne]

What exactly is Jimmy Young's claim to fame?

He lost a hotly contested decision to an old, fat, and disinterested Muhammad Ali. You would have thought this was a Camacho>Leonard or Norris>Leonard type beating.

He did beat an emotionally fragile George Foreman.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

What is Wlad's? That's right, nothing. No doubt Young has to rate higher historically, that isn't even in question.

[Robinson]

What made Foreman emotionally fragile?

[ThatOne]

What made Foreman emotionally fragile?

Muhammad Ali stripped him of his air of invinvcibility.

[Collins2000]

What made Foreman emotionally fragile?

Muhammad Ali stripped him of his air of invinvcibility.

Joe Frazier stripped Ali of his. Didn't seem to leave him vulnerable...

I think people are downplaying Young's victory over Foreman. It was a great result then and still is now. Light years beyond anything Klit2 has done.

[Woller]

Like the Muhammad Ali fight Young would never stand a chance. Klitchko by mid to late stoppage.

Saying that Young beat Ali is like saying that Germany won the second world war.

Germany like Young was not even a close second. Nothing against Young he did beat some good fighters during his career.

Woller

[ThatOne]

What made Foreman emotionally fragile?

Muhammad Ali stripped him of his air of invinvcibility.

Joe Frazier stripped Ali of his. Didn't seem to leave him vulnerable...

I think people are downplaying Young's victory over Foreman. It was a great result then and still is now. Light years beyond anything Klit2 has done.

Ali was emotionally stronger. His belief in himself never wavered.

You are right. I shouldn't denigrate Young's victory over Foreman but the post Zaire George Foreman was a very different boxer

[ThatOne]

Like the Muhammad Ali fight Young would never stand a chance. Klitchko by mid to late stoppage.

Saying that Young beat Ali is like saying that Germany won the second world war.

Germany like Young was not even a close second. Nothing against Young he did beat some good fighters during his career.

Woller

We are in a minority here. Some posters think Young beat Ali as clearly, as say Larry Holmes beat Tex Cobb; a near 15-0 decision

To suggest a 230 pound, disinterested,34 year old Muhammad Ali, who had three wars with Joe Frazier and a war with George Foreman was anywhere close to his peak reveals a bias or ignorance that makes meaningful discussion impossible.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Has anyone ever said that it was a peak Ali? I would just say that an old and outshape Ali or an emotionally strapped Foreman is still leagues beyond a washed up and fat Rahman or Chris Byrd. That Foreman would have run over Wlad like a mack truck.

And Foreman still had the belief and will to endure hell to beat Ron Lyle. To suggest that george was in the realm of the slovenly oafs that Wlad has defeated, and in some cases lost to, is every bit as biased or ignorant as someone claiming Ali was peak. Of course I have never seen the latter done by anyone. Save maybe Granberry, but I pity the fool that reads anything he has to say about Ali.

[ThatOne]

Has anyone ever said that it was a peak Ali? I would just say that an old and outshape Ali or an emotionally strapped Foreman is still leagues beyond a washed up and fat Rahman or Chris Byrd. That Foreman would have run over Wlad like a mack truck.

And Foreman still had the belief and will to endure hell to beat Ron Lyle. To suggest that george was in the realm of the slovenly oafs that Wlad has defeated, and in some cases lost to, is every bit as biased or ignorant as someone claiming Ali was peak. Of course I have never seen the latter done by anyone. Save maybe Granberry, but I pity the fool that reads anything he has to say about Ali.

There is a poster on this site that swears Ali's career is defined by his hotly contested decision over Young and the true Ali faced Jimmy Young in Landover, Maryland. Ali was old (34), fat (230 pounds), shopworn (three wars with Frazier and one with Foreman) and disinterested ( he was clowning arounf for most of the fight,;wiggling his ass when he was on the ropes, and going into a shell in the first round. That fight proves nothing. Any version of Ali up until, say 1973 turns Young inside out.

I haven't given much thought to Klitschko v Young.

[Collins2000]

Like the Muhammad Ali fight Young would never stand a chance. Klitchko by mid to late stoppage.

Saying that Young beat Ali is like saying that Germany won the second world war.

Germany like Young was not even a close second. Nothing against Young he did beat some good fighters during his career.

Woller

We are in a minority here. Some posters think Young beat Ali as clearly, as say Larry Holmes beat Tex Cobb; a near 15-0 decision

To suggest a 230 pound, disinterested,34 year old Muhammad Ali, who had three wars with Joe Frazier and a war with George Foreman was anywhere close to his peak reveals a bias or ignorance that makes meaningful discussion impossible.

It was a mere shell of Ali but Young beat him clearly.

That is all I have ever said.

There is a thread from the last few months where some of us scored that fight round by round. Dig it up and add you round by round scores and we can discuss it in depth if you wish. It makes for interesting conversation compared to many of the threads in here.

[ThatOne]

1) Of course Collins isn't the one that said Young beat a peak Ali.

2) According to Maryland boxing rules when a fighter who sticks his head out the ring it's a stand up knockdown. Young did it six times. When you take that into consideration you can see the fight in a very different light.

[Collins2000]

1) Of course Collins isn't the one that said Young beat a peak Ali.

2) According to Maryland boxing rules when a fighter who sticks his head out the ring it's a stand up knockdown. Young did it six times. When you take that into consideration you can see the fight in a very different light.

Was that fight fought under Maryland boxing rules and is that the official reason given for the scoring?

It was not made clear on the telecast I watched.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I thought Young won the fight, it was so utterly boring that I really don't care about the decision and I would rather not ever watch it again.

[ThatOne]

1) Of course Collins isn't the one that said Young beat a peak Ali.

2) According to Maryland boxing rules when a fighter who sticks his head out the ring it's a stand up knockdown. Young did it six times. When you take that into consideration you can see the fight in a very different light.

Was that fight fought under Maryland boxing rules and is that the official reason given for the scoring?

It was not made clear on the telecast I watched.

The fight was in Landover, Maryland. Jimmy Young did get a standing two count once. I can remember watching the fight live as if it was yesterday. Ali looked horrible but he was the aggressor. Was it effect aggression that the refs look for? Probably not.

However, you have to take into consideration that up to that point the heavyweight title hadn't changed hands via decision in 31? 36? years.

IMHO, the significance of this fight was blown out of proportion. Ali was in the twilight of his career. I think his close loss to Norton and win over Foreman are more significant.


Of course I am biased and I admit it but I don't think Young for all his cunning would give
a prime or even near rime Ali much trouble.

[Robinson]

What made Foreman emotionally fragile?

Muhammad Ali stripped him of his air of invinvcibility.

What does that even mean ? He lost a fight. I think writers
who know NOTHING about anything conjure up this crap so
people can cling to it.

The Foreman that Young fought was a hungry and determined
fighter that was upset against an unorthodox, in shape and
hungry fighter.

Emotionally not there is Oliver McCall in the Lewis rematch.

[ThatOne]

What made Foreman emotionally fragile?

Muhammad Ali stripped him of his air of invinvcibility.

What does that even mean ? He lost a fight. I think writers
who know NOTHING about anything conjure up this crap so
people can cling to it.

The Foreman that Young fought was a hungry and determined
fighter that was upset against an unorthodox, in shape and
hungry fighter.

Emotionally not there is Oliver McCall in the Lewis rematch.

Something was going on in Big George's head after the Young fight. In his autobiography he said he saw Jesus and was convinced to retire.

[Robinson]

ThatOne

what was your round by round scoring of the Young-Ali fight?

Or did you score it like you did the Pastrano-Johnson fight ?
By Watching the last round of the fight and reading about it in the Dundee bio.

Something was going on in his head AFTER the Young fight.
He lost to a man that he should have beaten ! Losing a big
gate way fight like that effects alot of people. Hauser would not
know that nor would Sugar because they at best watch fights.

[ThatOne]

ThatOne

what was your round by round scoring of the Young-Ali fight?

Or did you score it like you did the Pastrano-Johnson fight ?
By Watching the last round of the fight and reading about it in the Dundee bio.
Something was going on in his head AFTER the Young fight.
He lost to a man that he should have beaten ! Losing a big
gate way fight like that effects alot of people. Hauser would not
know that nor would Sugar because they at best watch fights.

That's really not fair. I watched most of Muhummad Ali's fighs in real time or closely therafter from his return from exile in 1970 to his retirement in 1981. Out of his sixty one fights I have probably seen over fifty.

I can almost take myself back to 1976, sitting on my parents' couch watching the Young fight. Many heavyweight championship fights, back then were televised in real time you know.

Again, I don't make up the rules. According to Maryland state boxing rules a boxer who sticks his head out the ring it's a stand up knockdown. Young did it on six occasions.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

So you score your own infractions? That seems pointless. It's against the rules to pull down on the back of the head as well. How many fights did you penalize Ali on the cards there?

[Robinson]

How did you score the both fights ?

Round by Round ? Or even over all.

Collins and I will no doubt do another open scoring
thread again soon. You should hop on, it would be
awesome.

[ThatOne]

So you score your own infractions? That seems pointless. It's against the rules to pull down on the back of the head as well. How many fights did you penalize Ali on the cards there?

I didn't score the infractions. All I am saying is when a boxer sticks his head out the ring, according to Maryland state rules, it shall be deemed a standup knockdown:

"For the most part, Young was a passive figure against Ali. On six occasions he ducked outside of the ropes and stayed there like a man looking out a window. It was not accidental. He was not slipping a punch. It was unconscionable behavior for a man who wants the heavyweight championship of the world. According to Maryland ring rules, Young should have been censured for this action; it is called a "stand-up knockdown." He was given a two count once. "

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/ ... /index.htm

Also, Muhammad Ali didn't invent clinching or holding. But I have seen hundreds of fights and have rarely if ever seen a fighter stick his head out the riong.

Holding in boxing is akin to holding in football. If the refs called it every time it was done offense would disappear.

[Robinson]

You say that Young was mostly passive Vs Ali,
yet you scored it a win for Pastrano over Johnson ?