CURTIS COKES

[ThatOne]

The smaller point being you talking about a fight that you don't even know what the outcome was.

Respectfully, there is no smaller point. However I should have followed the thread more closely.

It's hypocritical to give a pass to an athlete you admire because of a poor performance because he was past it, out of shape, too heavy or too light, etcetera and then to lambaste an athlete you don't admire given the same set of circumstances.

I think that observation should be fairly uncontroversial and unremarkable.

[raylawpc]

Why does Cokes get the benefit of the doubt for his loss to Rodriguez but Muhammad Ali doesn't get the benefit of the doubt for looking bad in winning a decision against Jimmy Young when he was older (34) shopworn ( three wars with Frazier, two wars with Norton, and one war with Foreman) out of shape (at 230 pounds he weighed more than at any time in his career except his final fight with Trevor Berbick) and disinterested ( wiggling his butt while on the ropes, going into a shell to start the fight).

A certain poster, is being hoisted on his own petard.

And it's not raylawpc.

ThatOne, Cokes beat Rodriguez by a TKO in 15 rounds. He didn't lose to Rodriguez.

My larger point is that it's terrible to judge fighters on fights when they are past it, fighting out of their weight class, out of shape. et cetera.

I don't disagree with that, but there is no analogy between Cokes or Rodriguez and Ali. Rodriguez was close to his prime and Curtis was right at his when they fought.

[ThatOne]

I concede the point. I am lost as to the controversy but it does seem a certain poster was trying to explain away a loss.

For instance James Toney could only beat a Prime Evander Holyfield in his dreams.

[raylawpc]

I concede the point. I am lost as to the controversy but it does seem a certain poster was trying to explain away a loss.

For instance James Toney could only beat a Prime Evander Holyfield in his dreams.

I was frequently lost as to many things with that same certain poster - which I why I have him on ignore. But as to Rodriguez, he was right. When Cokes fought Rodriguez, the latter was a welterweight - the No. 1 welterweight in the world.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I concede the point. I am lost as to the controversy but it does seem a certain poster was trying to explain away a loss.

For instance James Toney could only beat a Prime Evander Holyfield in his dreams.

I was frequently lost as to many things with that same certain poster - which I why I have him on ignore. But as to Rodriguez, he was right. When Cokes fought Rodriguez, the latter was a welterweight - the No. 1 welterweight in the world.

You can embarrass yourself as long as you like. You will never be right. He was fighting at Middleweight, plain as day for anyone but you.

[ThatOne]

I hope I didn't ignite this swearing match. We should be able to discuss these issues civilly.

I just think people and athletes should be judged by the same standards.

For instance I don't much like Mike Tyson but I refuse to judge him based on his performances against McBride, Williams, and to some extent Lewis but he owns those losses against Douglas and Holyfield.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I concede the point. I am lost as to the controversy but it does seem a certain poster was trying to explain away a loss.

For instance James Toney could only beat a Prime Evander Holyfield in his dreams.

He was trying to lavish Cokes with praise while citing examples of fighters that were done in largely by cutting weight to fight in a weight class they had better left behind. Just like Rodriguez as he dropped from fighting Middleweight contenders for the Cokes fight.

It's only debatable to raylawpc for some ungodly reason. Even Granberry wouldn't dare utter such idiotic claims as Rodriguez wasn't campaigning at Middleweight.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I hope I didn't ignite this swearing match. We should be able to discuss these issues civilly.

I just think people and athletes should be judged by the same standards.

I've remained civil and so has he for the most part. I'm also correct beyond a shadow of a doubt. But you're right, the proof is obvious and there is no reason for me to carry on with him.

And I totally agree with you in regards to late career losses or less than stellar wins. They me nothing.

[granberry]

I concede the point. I am lost as to the controversy but it does seem a certain poster was trying to explain away a loss.

For instance James Toney could only beat a Prime Evander Holyfield in his dreams.

I was frequently lost as to many things with that same certain poster - which I why I have him on ignore. But as to Rodriguez, he was right. When Cokes fought Rodriguez, the latter was a welterweight - the No. 1 welterweight in the world.

You can embarrass yourself as long as you like. You will never be right. He was fighting at Middleweight, plain as day for anyone but you.

Rodriguez' weight for those fights against middleweights before he fought and was stopped by Cokes was 150, 151--a standard weight for a welterweight who doesn't have to make weight.

I remember at the time how surprised I was that Rodriguez lost--and was stopped by a fighter I hadn't heard that much about.

Once Griffith moved up it was assumed that the welterweight title would belong to Rodriguez, who had fought Griffith in three close title fights.

Rodriguez' weight was 149 for his next bout after losing to Cokes.

As if it needs to be said, 149 is a welterweight, not a middleweight.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I was frequently lost as to many things with that same certain poster - which I why I have him on ignore. But as to Rodriguez, he was right. When Cokes fought Rodriguez, the latter was a welterweight - the No. 1 welterweight in the world.

You can embarrass yourself as long as you like. You will never be right. He was fighting at Middleweight, plain as day for anyone but you.

Rodriguez' weight for those fights against middleweights before he fought and was stopped by Cokes was 150, 151--a standard weight for a welterweight who doesn't have to make weight.

I remember at the time how surprised I was that Rodriguez lost--and was stopped by a fighter I hadn't heard that much about.

Once Griffith moved up it was assumed that the welterweight title would belong to Rodriguez, who had fought Griffith in three close title fights.

Rodriguez' weight was 149 for his next bout after losing to Cokes.

As if it needs to be said, 149 is a welterweight, not a middleweight.

No it isn't and Rodriguez routinely weighed 150 or 151 for a lot of his Middleweight fights. Two pounds isn't an insignificant amount of weight. He was struggling to make Welter long before the Cokes fight and he just couldn't do it anymore at full strength. No different than any of your other examples, it just doesn't suit your point.

[granberry]

Rodriguez' weight for those fights against middleweights before he fought and was stopped by Cokes was 150, 151--a standard weight for a welterweight who doesn't have to make weight.

I remember at the time how surprised I was that Rodriguez lost--and was stopped by a fighter I hadn't heard that much about.

Once Griffith moved up it was assumed that the welterweight title would belong to Rodriguez, who had fought Griffith in three close title fights.

Rodriguez' weight was 149 for his next bout after losing to Cokes.

As if it needs to be said, 149 is a welterweight, not a middleweight.

No it isn't and Rodriguez routinely weighed 150 or 151 for a lot of his Middleweight fights. Two pounds isn't an insignificant amount of weight. He was struggling to make Welter long before the Cokes fight and he just couldn't do it anymore at full strength. No different than any of your other examples, it just doesn't suit your point.

Now you are sounding totally foolish and obviously inexperienced in the most basic knowledge of fighters and weight.

Rodriguez was still a welterweight at 150, 151.

Later he weighed in the high 150's but never more than 150-151 before he fought Cokes.

Boxrec gives his weights on his record for anyone who cares to see.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Rodriguez' weight for those fights against middleweights before he fought and was stopped by Cokes was 150, 151--a standard weight for a welterweight who doesn't have to make weight.

I remember at the time how surprised I was that Rodriguez lost--and was stopped by a fighter I hadn't heard that much about.

Once Griffith moved up it was assumed that the welterweight title would belong to Rodriguez, who had fought Griffith in three close title fights.

Rodriguez' weight was 149 for his next bout after losing to Cokes.

As if it needs to be said, 149 is a welterweight, not a middleweight.

No it isn't and Rodriguez routinely weighed 150 or 151 for a lot of his Middleweight fights. Two pounds isn't an insignificant amount of weight. He was struggling to make Welter long before the Cokes fight and he just couldn't do it anymore at full strength. No different than any of your other examples, it just doesn't suit your point.

Now you are sounding totally foolish and obviously inexperienced in the most basic knowledge of fighters and weight.

Rodriguez was still a welterweight at 150, 151.

Later he weighed in the high 150's but never more than 150-151 before he fought Cokes.

Boxrec gives his weights on his record for anyone who cares to see.

I've cut weight more times than I care to remember. Sorry there clueless, you're wrong again. And when you've been starving yourself, losing the last two pounds is a bitch. Thankfully I never had to do it around 30, the age frame when it crushed Rodriguez.

[granberry]

No it isn't and Rodriguez routinely weighed 150 or 151 for a lot of his Middleweight fights. Two pounds isn't an insignificant amount of weight. He was struggling to make Welter long before the Cokes fight and he just couldn't do it anymore at full strength. No different than any of your other examples, it just doesn't suit your point.

Now you are sounding totally foolish and obviously inexperienced in the most basic knowledge of fighters and weight.

Rodriguez was still a welterweight at 150, 151.

Later he weighed in the high 150's but never more than 150-151 before he fought Cokes.

Boxrec gives his weights on his record for anyone who cares to see.

I've cut weight more times than I care to remember. Sorry there clueless, you're wrong again. And when you've been starving yourself, losing the last two pounds is a bitch. Thankfully I never had to do it around 30, the age frame when it crushed Rodriguez.

The same gibberish.

Cokes weighrd 160 in his very next fight after losing to Napoles.

Rodriquez weighed 149 in his very next fight after losing to Cokes.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Now you are sounding totally foolish and obviously inexperienced in the most basic knowledge of fighters and weight.

Rodriguez was still a welterweight at 150, 151.

Later he weighed in the high 150's but never more than 150-151 before he fought Cokes.

Boxrec gives his weights on his record for anyone who cares to see.

I've cut weight more times than I care to remember. Sorry there clueless, you're wrong again. And when you've been starving yourself, losing the last two pounds is a bitch. Thankfully I never had to do it around 30, the age frame when it crushed Rodriguez.

The same gibberish.

Cokes weighrd 160 in his very next fight after losing to Napoles.

Rodriquez weighed 149 in his very next fight after losing to Cokes.

This is definitely the same gibberish. You finally got something right.

[jaclem2]

..collins.....i am not THE authority, i am just one of them. but the ranks are thinning.

[Collins2000]

..collins.....i am not THE authority, i am just one of them. but the ranks are thinning.

What is it that makes you an authority on boxing technique, mate?

So far I have gleaned the following from your posts:

(1) You are very old

(2) You used to host a radio show

(3) You knew Ezzard Charles after he retired

(4) You once wrote to Ellery Queen

(5) You don't know how to use YouTube

(6) You often disrespect fighters you don't like

(7) You sometimes forget your pasword on here and have to create a new userid to get back in

Amusing as several of these things are to me, none of them would qualify you as an authority on boxing technique, would they?

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Best as i can tell, Irene is the true authority on everything Boxing. Not only in this little nook, but in every crevice of the planet. I'm just sorry that I've enraged the great one with my inferior pugilistic mind.

[ThatOne]

I have not been following this argument closely but can we all agree that judging an athlete on the outcome of a sporting event where he or she was not at their absolute best for any reason is illogical and when you had hold athletes you admire to a lower standard it is hypocritical.

[dberry]

Bravo gentlemen, so far four pages of petty bitterness, all starting over what some one once wrote about the name of a punch, surreal. Please carry on, I'm quite enjoying the bickering.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Best as i can tell, Irene is the true authority on everything Boxing. Not only in this little nook, but in every crevice of the planet. I'm just sorry that I've enraged the great one with my inferior pugilistic mind.

Well, I don't like to say it myself, so thank you

The recognition of my peers & contemporaries is what I strive for.

[keyboard warrior]

Bravo gentlemen, so far four pages of petty bitterness, all starting over what some one once wrote about the name of a punch, surreal. Please carry on, I'm quite enjoying the bickering.

I say to-mah-to, you say to-may-to

[raylawpc]

Bravo gentlemen, so far four pages of petty bitterness, all starting over what some one once wrote about the name of a punch, surreal. Please carry on, I'm quite enjoying the bickering.

I say to-mah-to, you say to-may-to

Or, more appropriately, "I say welterweight, he says middleweight. . ."

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Bravo gentlemen, so far four pages of petty bitterness, all starting over what some one once wrote about the name of a punch, surreal. Please carry on, I'm quite enjoying the bickering.

I say to-mah-to, you say to-may-to

Or, more appropriately, "I say welterweight, he says middleweight. . ."

I say the truth, not sure why you're so dead set on your delusional claims. It was amusing, I'll give you that.

[jaclem2]

hey collins- pretty good! glad to know you follow my posts so loyally that you actually remember so many of them.

you're right on the first three points. #4- ellery queen...i didn't add that i also wrote FOR ellery queen. #5 - my computer is on dial-up so it can't get youtube..#7 had to create a new account for this forum as my first one was so filled up with boxing posts, plus and a huge amount of personal messages asking me boxing questions.

as for my being an authority - much of it comes from your #1 comment about my being "very old"...i've been following boxing for almost 65 years, first just reading about it mainly in ring magazine and a the few books that were out then - listening to fights on radio and seeing some live over the years and of course a lot of tv fights, plus having films - a lot of joe louis and highlight reels of every heavyweight champion starting with corbett - plus some of the guys in the lighter weights - listening to my grand father who had seen sullivan and firzsimmons, interviewing or just talking with fighters and managers ...and i that may be it - combined with near total recall.

...indeed, as i look over the above- i suppose i still can be called irrelevant.

[ThatOne]

hey collins- pretty good! glad to know you follow my posts so loyally that you actually remember so many of them.

you're right on the first three points. #4- ellery queen...i didn't add that i also wrote FOR ellery queen. #5 - my computer is on dial-up so it can't get youtube..#7 had to create a new account for this forum as my first one was so filled up with boxing posts, plus and a huge amount of personal messages asking me boxing questions.

as for my being an authority - much of it comes from your #1 comment about my being "very old"...i've been following boxing for almost 65 years, first just reading about it mainly in ring magazine and a the few books that were out then - listening to fights on radio and seeing some live over the years and of course a lot of tv fights, plus having films - a lot of joe louis and highlight reels of every heavyweight champion starting with corbett - plus some of the guys in the lighter weights - listening to my grand father who had seen sullivan and firzsimmons, interviewing or just talking with fighters and managers ...and i that may be it - combined with near total recall.

...indeed, as i look over the above- i suppose i still can be called irrelevant.

Realative youth and wisdom are not mutually exclusive.