Analyze: Chuck Wepner

[dempseyfire]

Top 15 of the 70s? I would say no.

If we are saying strictly that decade, you have in no particular order

1) Ali
2) Holmes
3) Frazier
4) Foreman
5) Norton
6) Quarry
7) Lyle
8) Shavers
9) Bugner
10) Chuvalo
11) Bonavena
12) Ellis
13) Clarke
14) Middleton
15) Young

And I'd also rank the likes of Tate, Bobick, Coatzee, Williams,Ward,Spinks,LeDoux, and Merritt over Wepner.

I mean his best legit win was over Neumann for crying out loud. To call Hinke even a 'fringe contender' is rather pushing it.

[granberry]

Henry,

Wepner was connected with the New Jersey mob.

He spent some years in prison connected with mob drug work that he did.

He was considered a good mob employee, since he did his time and never fingered anyone else.

When Ali fought Wepner it was a legitimate fight, since the muslims connected with Ali could have no leverage on a white New Jersey mob member.

That is why instead of a one punch first round 'knockout' as with Liston, the Wepner fight showed both fighters' real abilities in a completely legitimate fight.

[ThatOne]

Wepner served time in prison almost fifteen years sfter his fight with Ali but never let the facts get in the way of a good argument. And if you know anything about the Mob and the Fruit Of Islam or the Nation Of Islam everybody was scared of the Fruit. However, I find the notion that the Fruit Of Islam was willynilly intimidating Ali's opponents fanciful. Surely with a conspiracy of this size someone would talk.

[granberry]

Wepner served time in prison almost fifteen years sfter his fight with Ali but never let the facts get in the way of a good argument. And if you know anything about the Mob and the Fruit Of Islam or the Nation Of Islam everybody was scared of the Fruit. However, I find the notion that the Fruit Of Islam was willynilly intimidating Ali's opponents fanciful. Surely with a conspiracy of this size someone would talk.

The Nation of Islam visited Liston. That is well documented. The boys from the main mosque in Chicago visited Liston.

They slaughtered other blacks like flies. They killed a number of women and children at the Hanafi muslim house in Washington DC.
Basketball star Abdul Jabbar bankrolled the Hanafi muslim house where the slaughter took place. He has never spoken publicly about the slaughter there by the Nation of Islam muslims, the same ones who ran Ali.

The Nation of Islam killed Malcolm X shortly before the 2nd Liston-Ali fake.

All these facts are well known to anyone except someone who pretends they don't exist.

The Nation of Islam wouldn't dare fool with real mob people.
That is why they wouldn't dare try to intimidate Wepner with his New Jersey mob connections.

That is why Wepner fought at his usual mediocre level and lasted 15 rounds against the Nation of Islam's "greatest of all time."

[Brutu]

In the documentary FACING ALI,
George Chuvalo claims that the some members of the Nation of Islam
had beaten Ernie Terrell's manager,
Bernie Glickman
to an inch of his life.
Reportly Glickman had ties to the mob.
What was that about?

[granberry]

In the documentary FACING ALI,
George Chuvalo claims that the some members of the Nation of Islam
had beaten Ernie Terrell's manager,
Bernie Glickman
to an inch of his life.
Reportly Glickman had ties to the mob.
What was that about?

This news article says Glickman was beaten and choked by Felix (Milwaukee Phil) Alderisio,

because he interfered with the mob's wishes to have the Clay-Terrell fight in New York:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 90,5848177

[Brutu]

Yeah,it was the new satellites that were launched in the 1960's that made them a lot of their money,for the closed-circuit bouts.

[BoxBuzz]

Wepner served time in prison almost fifteen years sfter his fight with Ali but never let the facts get in the way of a good argument. And if you know anything about the Mob and the Fruit Of Islam or the Nation Of Islam everybody was scared of the Fruit. However, I find the notion that the Fruit Of Islam was willynilly intimidating Ali's opponents fanciful. Surely with a conspiracy of this size someone would talk.

The Nation of Islam visited Liston. That is well documented. The boys from the main mosque in Chicago visited Liston.

They slaughtered other blacks like flies. They killed a number of women and children at the Hanafi muslim house in Washington DC.
Basketball star Abdul Jabbar bankrolled the Hanafi muslim house where the slaughter took place. He has never spoken publicly about the slaughter there by the Nation of Islam muslims, the same ones who ran Ali.

The Nation of Islam killed Malcolm X shortly before the 2nd Liston-Ali fake.

All these facts are well known to anyone except someone who pretends they don't exist.

The Nation of Islam wouldn't dare fool with real mob people.
That is why they wouldn't dare try to intimidate Wepner with his New Jersey mob connections.

That is why Wepner fought at his usual mediocre level and lasted 15 rounds against the Nation of Islam's "greatest of all time."

....IMHO this is the stuff of a delicious and intriguing fantasy ,a nearly magnetic mix of truth and conjecture, it makes for an interesting glance, and at the end of the day can be distilled down to balderdash with a nice thick side of sliced bologna

Now mind you, this is only my opinion, granberry has a right to his as well. And I have to say I enjoy reading it. I am often drawn to compelling fiction similar to Oliver Stone's best works.

But it does not hold up well when properly reviewed. Except of course to those "in the know on the east coast".

What is once again being vigilantly insinuated here, as is often the case when granberry get's his ya ya's out, is that Ali had little if any skill, and simply could not honestly compete with the top ten legit competition of the time without the "fix" being in.

This simply does not and will never hold up for those who view his work in the ring with any degree of neutrality and ability to assess boxing skill level. I have to believe very sincerely that even granberry knows better than this. However for some fantasy enthusisasts it is no more effort to tell a whopper than it is to simply "stretch" the truth a bit. And gran has gone for the "big fish" once again in this case.

I simply and assertively disagree with such nonsense. Sewing in intriguing tittilating facts does not give "yarn" such as this more tensile strength.

[raylawpc]

In the documentary FACING ALI,
George Chuvalo claims that the some members of the Nation of Islam
had beaten Ernie Terrell's manager,
Bernie Glickman
to an inch of his life.
Reportly Glickman had ties to the mob.
What was that about?

I don't recall that it was the Nation of Islam that assaulted Glickman. As I recall, Glickman was quoted in the newspapers as saying he had been assaulted by a New York mob member, but there was no evidence of that other than Glickman's testimony.

Supposedly, the mob was angered at Glickman because, due to Glickman's involvement with Terrell's management, the NYSAC nixed the Ali-Terrell bout for MSG, where the mob could have controlled the gambling.

All according to Glickman. Whether it was true or not, who knows?

[Collins2000]

Wepner served time in prison almost fifteen years sfter his fight with Ali but never let the facts get in the way of a good argument. And if you know anything about the Mob and the Fruit Of Islam or the Nation Of Islam everybody was scared of the Fruit. However, I find the notion that the Fruit Of Islam was willynilly intimidating Ali's opponents fanciful. Surely with a conspiracy of this size someone would talk.

The Nation of Islam visited Liston. That is well documented. The boys from the main mosque in Chicago visited Liston.

They slaughtered other blacks like flies. They killed a number of women and children at the Hanafi muslim house in Washington DC.
Basketball star Abdul Jabbar bankrolled the Hanafi muslim house where the slaughter took place. He has never spoken publicly about the slaughter there by the Nation of Islam muslims, the same ones who ran Ali.

The Nation of Islam killed Malcolm X shortly before the 2nd Liston-Ali fake.

All these facts are well known to anyone except someone who pretends they don't exist.

The Nation of Islam wouldn't dare fool with real mob people.
That is why they wouldn't dare try to intimidate Wepner with his New Jersey mob connections.

That is why Wepner fought at his usual mediocre level and lasted 15 rounds against the Nation of Islam's "greatest of all time."

....IMHO this is the stuff of a delicious and intriguing fantasy ,a nearly magnetic mix of truth and conjecture, it makes for an interesting glance, and at the end of the day can be distilled down to balderdash with a nice thick side of sliced bologna

Now mind you, this is only my opinion, granberry has a right to his as well. And I have to say I enjoy reading it. I am often drawn to compelling fiction similar to Oliver Stone's best works.

But it does not hold up well when properly reviewed. Except of course to those "in the know on the east coast".

What is once again being vigilantly insinuated here, as is often the case when granberry get's his ya ya's out, is that Ali had little if any skill, and simply could not honestly compete with the top ten legit competition of the time without the "fix" being in.

This simply does not and will never hold up for those who view his work in the ring with any degree of neutrality and ability to assess boxing skill level. I have to believe very sincerely that even granberry knows better than this. However for some fantasy enthusisasts it is no more effort to tell a whopper than it is to simply "stretch" the truth a bit. And gran has gone for the "big fish" once again in this case.

I simply and assertively disagree with such nonsense. Sewing in intriguing tittilating facts does not give "yarn" such as this more tensile strength.

It's a pretty good story. Totally bereft of anything resembling facts, but they should never be looked for in a work of fiction. And he put up a variation on the "orange juice" story a couple of days back. Pure comedic gold.

(PS, when Frantic Francis goes absolutely ballistic at your questioning of his "facts", just remember when you are sending around your ridiculous "Board Warning" PMs to send one to yourself too. You wouldn't want to be thought of as a hypocrite as well as a jackass would you?)

[BoxBuzz]

Collie, take a lesson, disagree in civil and respectful fashion and always pursue excellence, and good fortune will always follow in your wake.

However if you digress to unfilial antics, then good fortune will abandon you..... for greener pastures.

[Crease]

Alot of people get on Chuck Wepner as being one of the worst title challengers in HW history, that he had no chance, no business, being in the same ring with Ali, but I was re-thinking the "Bayonne Bleeder", and wanted to really break his career down and see where Wepner truly does rank not only among the 1970's list of contenders, but maybe even of all time as well.

It seems to me, that Wepner's "prime" was around 1972-1975, even though throughout 1969-1971 he faced the likes of Foreman and Liston and Bugner. From 1972-1975 he racked up 10-1-0 record, his only loss being to Ali. In between that time he defeated Neumann twice, got the gift against Terrell, and stopped contender Terry Hinke as well as Charlie Polite.

After Ali from 1976-1978 he went 3-4-0, losing to Bobick, Schutte and Frank. He had no significant wins in that time period, though, it must be stated that the win for Bobick made him a catalyst for being a top contender, until Ken Norton derailed his title hopes, so by the time he lost to Bobick, Wepner was still considered at least a gate way opponent to defeat.

The only men ahead of him would have been Terrell, Patterson, Chuvalo, Bonavena, Quarry, etc.
Wepner, was far from being one of the worst title challengers in HW history.

I seems to me, that you have included facts in this article to gain some crediblity.
But you are backing it up with mere opinions.

The greatest performances of Wepner's career were losses.

[Crease]

You can slice and dice Wepners career anyway you want but the bottom line will always be that he was no more than a journeyman

I think that you have put it more eloquently than what I ever could.

Wepner will be remebered for his bold performance against Muhammad Ali, and that, is really the best that the man could hope for.

And you may rhyme off all the titles and trinkets that Wepner won, it doesn't matter significantly...
He was a journeyman.

(In much the same way that Sinan Samil Sam is, a boxer whoI have a soft-spot for).

[Brutu]

Maybe Glickman was beaten up again later by Nation of Islam?
Anyway Bernie Glickman at one time briefly was the manager of Sonny Liston in 1958 .
Before Frankie Carbo took control of him.

[Collins2000]

[Controversial]

Wasn't Wepner the fighter that Stallone loosely based the Rocky movies on?

[ThatOne]

Wepner served time in prison almost fifteen years sfter his fight with Ali but never let the facts get in the way of a good argument. And if you know anything about the Mob and the Fruit Of Islam or the Nation Of Islam everybody was scared of the Fruit. However, I find the notion that the Fruit Of Islam was willynilly intimidating Ali's opponents fanciful. Surely with a conspiracy of this size someone would talk.

The Nation of Islam visited Liston. That is well documented. The boys from the main mosque in Chicago visited Liston.

They slaughtered other blacks like flies. They killed a number of women and children at the Hanafi muslim house in Washington DC.
Basketball star Abdul Jabbar bankrolled the Hanafi muslim house where the slaughter took place. He has never spoken publicly about the slaughter there by the Nation of Islam muslims, the same ones who ran Ali.

The Nation of Islam killed Malcolm X shortly before the 2nd Liston-Ali fake.

All these facts are well known to anyone except someone who pretends they don't exist.

The Nation of Islam wouldn't dare fool with real mob people.
That is why they wouldn't dare try to intimidate Wepner with his New Jersey mob connections.

That is why Wepner fought at his usual mediocre level and lasted 15 rounds against the Nation of Islam's "greatest of all time."

How come the Fruit Of Islam didn't get to Larry Holmes, Leon Spinks, Trevor Berbick, Ken Norton, and Joe Frazier?

[Brutu]

I sent the dvd Facing Ali back to netflix weeks ago.
But maybe someone can double check,but im sure thats what Chuvalo said.
I also think he said that after the beating Glickman died in a saniterium it was so bad.


In his documentery THE LONGEST ROUND,Also Chuvalo said that before his own fight with Terrell, that the either Glickman or mob threatened the ref to give Terrell
the deciding vote.

[Brutu]

In his autobiography Larry Holmes said Don King threathened to have his legs broken if he didnt resign with him.
He also said he(King) started to get really weird and start to cry before he said that to him.

[dempseyfire]

Wepner served time in prison almost fifteen years sfter his fight with Ali but never let the facts get in the way of a good argument. And if you know anything about the Mob and the Fruit Of Islam or the Nation Of Islam everybody was scared of the Fruit. However, I find the notion that the Fruit Of Islam was willynilly intimidating Ali's opponents fanciful. Surely with a conspiracy of this size someone would talk.

The Nation of Islam visited Liston. That is well documented. The boys from the main mosque in Chicago visited Liston.

They slaughtered other blacks like flies. They killed a number of women and children at the Hanafi muslim house in Washington DC.
Basketball star Abdul Jabbar bankrolled the Hanafi muslim house where the slaughter took place. He has never spoken publicly about the slaughter there by the Nation of Islam muslims, the same ones who ran Ali.

The Nation of Islam killed Malcolm X shortly before the 2nd Liston-Ali fake.

All these facts are well known to anyone except someone who pretends they don't exist.

The Nation of Islam wouldn't dare fool with real mob people.
That is why they wouldn't dare try to intimidate Wepner with his New Jersey mob connections.

That is why Wepner fought at his usual mediocre level and lasted 15 rounds against the Nation of Islam's "greatest of all time."

How come the Fruit Of Islam didn't get to Larry Holmes, Leon Spinks, Trevor Berbick, Ken Norton, and Joe Frazier?

Bingo . . . .and I know Norton who was just beyond California premilinaries did not have big-time mafia goons protecting him.

[granberry]

How come the Nation of Islam didn't get to Jimmy Young?

Because they underestimated his ability and didn't use their usual tactics.

Once Young made an ass of Ali for 15 embarrassing rounds

they sure did go after Young.

Immediately after the fight in his dressing room Young had absolute contempt for Ali and said he would certainly stop Ali the next time since he had paced himself since it was his first 15 round fight.

A few weeks later I ran into Young in the doorway of Frazier's gym

and asked him when he was going to get his rematch with Ali.

It was obvious the muslims had been at work on Young since the fight,

because he now said, unable to look me in the eye,

"Ali was a great fighter, he should retire, he shouldn't fight any more."

When I acted surprised at his switch from what he said just after the fight,

he stuck to his mantra, repeated the same words in a lifeless, unconvincing voice and hurried away.

He was obviously afraid of something.

They underestimated Leon Spinks and let him alone before the first fight where the 7-professional fight novice beat Ali.

For the 2nd fight they were actually IN Spinks' training camp, supplying him with girls and drugs.

Norton was not a ghetto black, he was intelligent, even though he was not a very good fighter

and he had a white manager, Bob Byron, who the muslims felt they couldn't fool with.

The muslims only fool with other blacks--not with whites.

That why mob-connected Wepner, a totally mediocre nothing as a fighter who was stopped by DUANE BOBICK stayed 15 rounds with the 'greatest of all time.'

[granberry]

Larry Holmes was very intimidated in his fight with Ali.

The soundtrack of the fight consists of Holmes' cornermen screaming and screaming at him to throw punches, to do something.

A championship heavyweight should have stopped Ali in a couple rounds there.

When Holmes finally threw a group of punches at the end of the 10th round, Ali actually turned his back away like someone who had never had a fight.
Then he quit in corner and collected his million dollars for throwing 5 punches in 10 rounds.

Not exactly in the tradition of the long history of the heavyweight division

as compared to Jim Jeffries, Joe Louis etc fighting to the end in their last fight.

[ThatOne]

How come the Nation of Islam didn't get to Jimmy Young?

Because they underestimated his ability and didn't use their usual tactics.

Once Young made an ass of Ali for 15 embarrassing rounds

they sure did go after Young.

Immediately after the fight in his dressing room Young had absolute contempt for Ali and said he would certainly stop Ali the next time since he had paced himself since it was his first 15 round fight.

A few weeks later I ran into Young in the doorway of Frazier's gym

and asked him when he was going to get his rematch with Ali.

It was obvious the muslims had been at work on Young since the fight,

because he now said, unable to look me in the eye,

"Ali was a great fighter, he should retire, he shouldn't fight any more."

When I acted surprised at his switch from what he said just after the fight,

he stuck to his mantra, repeated the same words in a lifeless, unconvincing voice and hurried away.

He was obviously afraid of something.

They underestimated Leon Spinks and let him alone before the first fight where the 7-professional fight novice beat Ali.

For the 2nd fight they were actually IN Spinks' training camp, supplying him with girls and drugs.

Norton was not a ghetto black, he was intelligent, even though he was not a very good fighter

and he had a white manager, Bob Byron, who the muslims felt they couldn't fool with.

The muslims only fool with other blacks--not with whites.That why mob-connected Wepner, a totally mediocre nothing as a fighter who was stopped by DUANE BOBICK stayed 15 rounds with the 'greatest of all time.'

Sonny Liston's manager for the Ali fights were white.

[ThatOne]

Feather fisted couldn't knock out Muhammad Ali if his life depended on it.

[Collins2000]

Sonny Liston's manager for the Ali fights were white.

Let's not bring facts into this.