Analyze: Chuck Wepner

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Re: Analyze: Chuck Wepner

Post by ThatOne »

Collins2000 wrote:
ThatOne wrote:

Sonny Liston's manager for the Ali fights were white.

Let's not bring facts into this.

How come the Fruit was able to get to Sonny's white manager but not to Ken's white manager?

And why was the Fruit unable get to Joe's black manager in the first fight but able to get to him in the second and third fight?

But it makes sense. Larry Holmes had a white manager (Larry Giachetti) and that's why he beat Ali.
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Re: Analyze: Chuck Wepner

Post by Collins2000 »

ThatOne wrote:
Collins2000 wrote:
ThatOne wrote:

Sonny Liston's manager for the Ali fights were white.

Let's not bring facts into this.

How come the Fruit was able to get to Sonny's white manager but not to Ken's white manager?

And why was the Fruit unable get to Joe's black manager in the first fight but able to get to him in the second and third fight?

But it makes sense. Larry Holmes had a white manager (Larry Giachetti) and that's why he beat Ali.

Good questions. And ones which Francis will either ignore or distort.

It all makes complete sense to him though. And that's the frightening bit.

:D
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Re: Analyze: Chuck Wepner

Post by granberry »

ThatOne wrote:
granberry wrote:How come the Nation of Islam didn't get to Jimmy Young?

Because they underestimated his ability and didn't use their usual tactics.

Once Young made an ass of Ali for 15 embarrassing rounds

they sure did go after Young.

Immediately after the fight in his dressing room Young had absolute contempt for Ali and said he would certainly stop Ali the next time since he had paced himself since it was his first 15 round fight.

A few weeks later I ran into Young in the doorway of Frazier's gym

and asked him when he was going to get his rematch with Ali.

It was obvious the muslims had been at work on Young since the fight,

because he now said, unable to look me in the eye,

"Ali was a great fighter, he should retire, he shouldn't fight any more."

When I acted surprised at his switch from what he said just after the fight,

he stuck to his mantra, repeated the same words in a lifeless, unconvincing voice and hurried away.

He was obviously afraid of something.

They underestimated Leon Spinks and let him alone before the first fight where the 7-professional fight novice beat Ali.

For the 2nd fight they were actually IN Spinks' training camp, supplying him with girls and drugs.

Norton was not a ghetto black, he was intelligent, even though he was not a very good fighter

and he had a white manager, Bob Byron, who the muslims felt they couldn't fool with.

The muslims only fool with other blacks--not with whites.That why mob-connected Wepner, a totally mediocre nothing as a fighter who was stopped by DUANE BOBICK stayed 15 rounds with the 'greatest of all time.'


Sonny Liston's manager for the Ali fights were white.
Liston was run by the Sam Giancana Chicago mob who ordered Liston to lose the "fights."

The word was out on the street 5 days before the 2nd "fight" to bet on Liston to lose in the first round.
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Re: Analyze: Chuck Wepner

Post by ThatOne »

granberry wrote:
ThatOne wrote:
granberry wrote:How come the Nation of Islam didn't get to Jimmy Young?

Because they underestimated his ability and didn't use their usual tactics.

Once Young made an ass of Ali for 15 embarrassing rounds

they sure did go after Young.

Immediately after the fight in his dressing room Young had absolute contempt for Ali and said he would certainly stop Ali the next time since he had paced himself since it was his first 15 round fight.

A few weeks later I ran into Young in the doorway of Frazier's gym

and asked him when he was going to get his rematch with Ali.

It was obvious the muslims had been at work on Young since the fight,

because he now said, unable to look me in the eye,

"Ali was a great fighter, he should retire, he shouldn't fight any more."

When I acted surprised at his switch from what he said just after the fight,

he stuck to his mantra, repeated the same words in a lifeless, unconvincing voice and hurried away.

He was obviously afraid of something.

They underestimated Leon Spinks and let him alone before the first fight where the 7-professional fight novice beat Ali.

For the 2nd fight they were actually IN Spinks' training camp, supplying him with girls and drugs.

Norton was not a ghetto black, he was intelligent, even though he was not a very good fighter

and he had a white manager, Bob Byron, who the muslims felt they couldn't fool with.

The muslims only fool with other blacks--not with whites.That why mob-connected Wepner, a totally mediocre nothing as a fighter who was stopped by DUANE BOBICK stayed 15 rounds with the 'greatest of all time.'


Sonny Liston's manager for the Ali fights were white.
Liston was run by the Sam Giancana Chicago mob who ordered Liston to lose the "fights."

The word was out on the street 5 days before the 2nd "fight" to bet on Liston to lose in the first round.

Why didn't the Fruit not order Frazier to lose the first fight with Ali but not the second and third?
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Re: Analyze: Chuck Wepner

Post by granberry »

ThatOne wrote:
Collins2000 wrote:
ThatOne wrote:

Sonny Liston's manager for the Ali fights were white.

Let's not bring facts into this.

How come the Fruit was able to get to Sonny's white manager but not to Ken's white manager?

And why was the Fruit unable get to Joe's black manager in the first fight but able to get to him in the second and third fight?

But it makes sense. Larry Holmes had a white manager (Larry Giachetti) and that's why he beat Ali.
RICHIE Giachetti was a stooge for Don King by the time Holmes held the title.

Before the Young-Ali fight, after a workout at the community center Ray Leonard came out of (Before I saw Young and then Holmes work out that day, Leonard and Derrick Holmes put on a scam 'sparring exhibition' where they grinned and skipped around the ring not trying to hit each other)

Giachetti was running on to me about how his fighter Holmes "was the most feared heavyweight' etc.

Holmes talked to me after his workout in front of the building. He was waiting for a ride. He said he was trying to get a fight on the card and he might fight Roy Williams, the "heavyweight champion of Pennsylvania."

Holmes said he had a problem with his weight--that he didn't weigh enough and that he wasn't getting any results by trying eating certain things.
I told him not to worry about it, that more weight would come naturally when it did.
In talking about that I asked him how tall he was and he said "6' 5" " and that he barely weighed 200 lb.
He was very tall as I stood next to him.

It's tough for the clueless to comprehend that everything is not simple black and white.

And it is obviously impossible for Religion of Ali members to admit that Ali was connected with a vile, murderous phony 'religious' group that slaughtered other blacks like flies. And bragged about it.
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Re: Analyze: Chuck Wepner

Post by granberry »

ThatOne wrote:
Why didn't the Fruit not order Frazier to lose the first fight with Ali but not the second and third?
The Nation of Islam couldn't make any headway with Yank Durham, even if he was black.

So they sent Ali out to smear and smear Frazier in the black community so that his he had to hire 24-hour bodyguards for himself and his family and pull his kids out of public school.

The repulsive Bryant Gumbel even wrote an article titled “Is Joe Frazier a White Champion in a Black Skin?”
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Re: Analyze: Chuck Wepner

Post by ThatOne »

granberry wrote:
ThatOne wrote:
Why didn't the Fruit not order Frazier to lose the first fight with Ali but not the second and third?
The Nation of Islam couldn't make any headway with Yank Durham, even if he was black.

So they sent Ali out to smear and smear Frazier in the black community so that his he had to hire 24-hour bodyguards for himself and his family and pull his kids out of public school.

The repulsive Bryant Gumbel even wrote an article titled “Is Joe Frazier a White Champion in a Black Skin?”

So you are conceding thaty Ali beat Frazier fair and square and they gave each other Hell in three fights.

He can't be that bad a fighter.
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Re: Analyze: Chuck Wepner

Post by ThatOne »

granberry wrote:
ThatOne wrote:
Collins2000 wrote:
Let's not bring facts into this.

How come the Fruit was able to get to Sonny's white manager but not to Ken's white manager?

And why was the Fruit unable get to Joe's black manager in the first fight but able to get to him in the second and third fight?

But it makes sense. Larry Holmes had a white manager (Larry Giachetti) and that's why he beat Ali.
RICHIE Giachetti was a stooge for Don King by the time Holmes held the title.

Before the Young-Ali fight, after a workout at the community center Ray Leonard came out of (Before I saw Young and then Holmes work out that day, Leonard and Derrick Holmes put on a scam 'sparring exhibition' where they grinned and skipped around the ring not trying to hit each other)

Giachetti was running on to me about how his fighter Holmes "was the most feared heavyweight' etc.

Holmes talked to me after his workout in front of the building. He was waiting for a ride. He said he was trying to get a fight on the card and he might fight Roy Williams, the "heavyweight champion of Pennsylvania."

Holmes said he had a problem with his weight--that he didn't weigh enough and that he wasn't getting any results by trying eating certain things.
I told him not to worry about it, that more weight would come naturally when it did.
In talking about that I asked him how tall he was and he said "6' 5" " and that he barely weighed 200 lb.
He was very tall as I stood next to him.

It's tough for the clueless to comprehend that everything is not simple black and white.

And it is obviously impossible for Religion of Ali members to admit that Ali was connected with a vile, murderous phony 'religious' group that slaughtered other blacks like flies. And bragged about it.


Ali left the Nation Of Islam thirty years ago.
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Re: Analyze: Chuck Wepner

Post by Brutu »

Reportly just before the first Clay-Liston fight,Bernie Glickman called up his son who was planning to bet big on Liston and told him
"dont bet".
Last edited by Brutu on 06 Mar 2010, 16:23, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Analyze: Chuck Wepner

Post by Collins2000 »

Brutu wrote:Reportly just before the first Clay-Liston fight,Bernie Glickman called up his son who was planning to bet on Liston and told him
"dont bet".
Source?

:D
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Re: Analyze: Chuck Wepner

Post by Brutu »

Source Joel Glickman(Bernie Glickman's son) in
Sonny Boy aka The Phantom Punch by Rob Steen.
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Re: Analyze: Chuck Wepner

Post by ThatOne »

Brutu wrote:Reportly just before the first Clay-Liston fight,Bernie Glickman called up his son who was planning to bet big on Liston and told him
"dont bet".

"Was it a fix? Liston never admitted to it. His widow, Geraldine, says to this day that if it was a fix, it was a secret that Sonny took to the grave with him. And if it was a fix, Geraldine says, there was never any kind of financial payoff."


http://www.eastsideboxing.com/boxing-news/dunn0507.php


What's so special about Sonny Liston?

Ali was younger, faster, and just as strong and durable.
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Re: Analyze: Chuck Wepner

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Ali famously made the Fight of the Century more than just a simple boxing match; he relentlessly condemned Frazier as an Uncle Tom, "the enemy," and made audiences take sides based on racial politics.

Thanks to the media’s lapdog approach to Ali, the audiences picked their side for every reason except boxing: As narrator Liev Schreiber states: "If you were rooting for Muhammed Ali, you were black, liberal or young, against the Vietnam War and supported the civil rights movement. If you backed Joe Frazier you represented white, conservative America."

As one of the brightest talking heads in the film, Sunni Khalid of WYPR notes, "We were all convinced that Joe had to be an Uncle Tom. Why? Because Ali said so."

This was ironic on levels both personal and political. For the media to let Ali get away with this was troubling enough. Ali was a member of a violent, racist, segregationist group, not an outwardly integrationist movement as the NAACP.

The Nation formed Ali’s entourage and his public image. According to Khalid, "Elijah Muhammed was in charge, they ran a hierarchical organization, nobody said or did anything unless it was approved from headquarters,"

Over footage of Ali cheering a racist rant from the Nation's leader, Khalid reports, "They even fed him the famous lines about ‘No Vietcong ever called me person.’" This charge is smugly confirmed on camera by Nation spokesman Abdul Rahaman. who takes personal credit for the line—and now sports Ali’s championship ring on his finger.

"It was the ultimate manipulation of anyone I’ve ever seen," declares Freddie Pacheco, whose arrogant presence in the film personifies Ali’s corner but who also is bracingly candid at times.

The film replays an interview Ali gave to a British television reporter, in which Ali declares, "You are fighting a spiritual holy war when you face me now!"

"What about when you’re fighting Joe Frazier," the bemused reporter asks, "Is that fighting a holy war?"

"Yes, sir! Because he’s the Uncle Tom!" Ali shouts.


"Oh, he’s not an Uncle Tom," the reporter chides, vainly trying to introduce reason to the discussion.

Ali will have none of it.

But as one of Frazier’s camp, Dave Wolfe, points out, "Joe was the working-class black person Ali claimed to be speaking for, Ali never worked a day in his life except at being himself."

It was Frazier who lived and trained (and still does) in the neighborhood called "The Badlands" in Philadelphia. It was Frazier who grew up tilling the fields in a segregated South Carolina county where the local bank would later not even cash a small check for him when he returned home as the heavyweight champion of the world.

All of this was known to the media, but the reporters nevertheless played along, eager to get the next Big Quote from Ali, or, like spotlight pimp Howard Cosell, seeking to accrue fame and glory by approximation. They allowed, as Schreiber notes, Ali to "consistently" use "the politics of race to demean Joe Frazier."

According to son Marvis Frazier, this led to bomb threats against their home and constant police protection. "Everybody and their sister used to beat me up because I was Joe Frazier’s son."

But the betrayal is even deeper and more shocking than a casual observer might gather. During Ali’s three-year suspension from boxing for his refusal to be drafted, Frazier, who had become champ during that time, lobbied to get Ali's boxing license back and had even gave him money. Frazier was even generous about Ali’s draft dodging, Wolfe says, adding, "Joe once said to me, ‘If Baptists were not allowed to fight, I would not fight."

Frazier wanted Ali back in the ring so he could prove himself a worthy champion. He even cooperated with Ali in staging some of their raucous confrontations just to build up the public's interest and put pressure on the boxing commissions. But as soon as the Supreme Court overturned Ali’s ban from boxing, the incidents turned serious and ugly, as "Ali restorted to racial abuse."

And so the stage for their first fight was set. Ali -- hero of the antiwar crowd and icon of the black power movement - would make his triumphant return and become king of the sports world, advancing his causes would be advanced immeasurably.

But the deposed champ was up against a man whose beginnings were so humble he made Ali look like a child of privilege and who never demanded handouts to keep him in kingly style. Frazier -- a humble champion who was good to his investors and cognizant of boxing's traditions -- got in the way of the historically inevitable storyline and won the greatest fight of modern times.

So the Left mobilized to do to Joe Frazier the man what Muhammad Ali the boxer could not do in the ring: destroy him as a man. Shameless idiots like Bryant Gumbel wrote that "Joe Frazier is the white man's champion," while Cosell made a career out of serving as Ali's journalism pimp and jester.

By the time the two would meet in Manila for their ultimate confrontation in 1975, Ali was king of the media. His racist attacks reached new lows while the press corps giggled along.

"The language of racial superiority shaped Ali’s attacks on Joe Frazier, and in Manila, his relentless use of the word gorilla took on a sinister tone" Schreiber says.

It began at a press conference when Ali began his familiar rhyming sessions. "It will be a thrilla when I get the gorilla in Manila," he boasts, then whips out a rubber gorilla that he called "the soul of Joe Frazier" and began beating on it. But it was more than just words, it became a full-fledged theme that spread out to T-shirts, dolls and even men in costumes sparring in Ali’s ring.

"Ali portrayed Joe Frazier as inferior, not only as a boxer but as a human being," the film offers, showing clips of Ali using such terms as "Flat nose, ugly pug, can’t dance, ignorant" and the ubiquitous, "gorilla."


But Thrilla in Manila is not just a social document -- it's a terrific sports film as well. Viewing the Manila fight with Frazier as he watches the footage for the first time is a riveting experience.

A little-discussed aspect of the fight will surprise many boxing fans. Thrilla raises significant doubt whether Ali could have come out for the 15th round if Joe Frazier’s corner not stopped the fight.

Interviewees from both corners and the footage itself seem to confirm this controversial assertion. But the reason the fight ended this way is even more relevant than the fact that it did, and it highlights the differences between the Ali and Frazier camps.

While Frazier argued vehemently with his corner that he wanted to go out for Round 15, the people who cared about Joe Frazier as a person — particularly his trainer, Eddie Futch, who had seen eight men die in the ring — threw in the towel.

When he finished the 14th round, Thomas Hauser, Ali’s official biographer tells film maker Dower, Ali told his trainer to cut his gloves off, that he was done, Pacheco says flatly that it was "the Muslims" who demanded their symbol return to the ring no matter what the cost to his person.

At the end of the film, Frazier’s continuing contempt for Ali is covered, with boxing writers and friends regretting that Joe will do such things as point to Ali in his current state and say with satisfaction, "I did that," as proof that ultimately he won the fight.

Here is where the film does not quite complete the circle of the story. The media’s sorry role is only indirectly covered.

We see Ali sitting around spouting racist garbage as reporters laugh. and rarely does anyone challenge him. Media bias even leaked into the play by play. When Frazier unloads on Ali’s jaw, the announcer exclaims, "Oh, Ali slipped!" With a chuckle, Frazier comments, "Slipped on what? Slipped on a left hook."

To this day, Frazier has to watch a man who spent years in a highly publicized racist campaign against him lionized as a hero and humanitarian.
‘ ‘ ‘
While Ali still is showered with such honors as lighting the Olympic torch, Frazier is barely acknowledged in his hometown of Philadelphia.
Although Ali may possibly have been the worst sport of any major sports champion, Sports Illustrated incredibly named him "Sportsman of the Century" (over Babe Ruth, who all but created modern professional sports). Frazier -- who, on points, has to be considered dead even with Ali in their three fights -- doesn't even make the top 100 list.
. . .
Why the accolades for Muhammed Ali? Ali was the person most responsible for ruining his sport, Don King would be nothing without him. What is he a symbol of? Bad sportsmanship? Taunting an opponent? The Nation of Islam? Anti-miscegenation? Racial hatred?

Ali is no Jackie Robinson; in fact, he was quite the opposite. Frazier is what Americans look for in their champions, so much so that Sylvester Stallone lifted elements of Frazier's humble story directly for Rocky. But as a lasting tribute to media fecklessness, in Philadelphia there stands a statue of the fictional Rocky, not of Smokin’ Joe Frazier.

But while everyone seems to describe him with the word "bitter," Frazier comes across as anything but. Joe seems completely at peace with his justified contempt for Ali as a man. In that way, Frazier is a throwback to a pre-therapeutic age of manliness when everyone didn’t have to have a group hug in order to be content with the order of things.

That’s appropriate, since Joe Frazier was also a throwback as a champion — a gracious, good sport who respected his sport and his opponent -- and who was unprepared for an age where heroes were created by a media agenda instead of by an individual’s actions.

http://97.74.65.51/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=34721
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Re: Analyze: Chuck Wepner

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"When he finished the 14th round, Thomas Hauser, Ali’s official biographer tells film maker Dower, Ali told his trainer to cut his gloves off, that he was done, Pacheco says flatly that it was "the Muslims" who demanded their symbol return to the ring no matter what the cost to his person."

-Granberry

Ali was winning the fight 9-4-1 on the cards and had won the last three rounds. After the fourteenth round the ref, Danny Padilla, had to literally lead Joe Frazier back to his corner because he couldn't see. The film doesn't lie.


“Let me tell you, the thing that they got wrong, Muhammad never said to cut the gloves off. I was there. They must have been thinking about the first Liston fight. When Muhammad got back to the corner after the 14th round, I knew we had Joe. I said ‘Loosen up kid, this is the last round, let’s get him.’ If you see, when we get in the corner, (between the 14th and 15th round) I am pumping my fist as I talk. I am really juiced, because it was amazing the way these two guys were fighting. And Muhammad has always sucked it up.”

So Muhammad never wanted to stop, I asked him.

“No, that’s baloney,” Dundee said. “Joe didn’t want to stop. Do you know what I mean? They are two warriors. No, and Muhammad never said anything about cutting the gloves off. That is nuts. That is not true. That is not real.”

Dundee thought there were more untruths in the documentary. Although he enjoyed the show, Dundee felt that those who had the strongest opinions on the program were nowhere to be seen in the Phillipines on fight night.

“Well, I am not a critic, they did the show the way they wanted to do it. But I saw a lot of faces on that show that I have never seen before. And they were the critical ones. You know, I didn’t see these people at the event. But they were the ones talking the most. It was dead wrong when they said that Muhammad wanted to cut the gloves off. And the other thing about saying that he collapsed after the fight is silly. The truth is, Muhammad laid down because those guys were jumping on him. So he just sat down and took it easy.”

Ali’s victory over a courageous Frazier in that Thrilla in Manila was the stuff fairy tales are made of. But to hear Dundee say it, it was not Hollywood movie dramatic. The HBO documentary depicted an image of Ali gasping for air, nearly fainting inside of the ring after the brutal fight against Joe Frazier. But Dundee, the closest man to Ali in proximity, saw it differently.

http://www.thesweetscience.com/boxing-a ... uaio/“That was baloney,” Dundee said. “And it has long been a misconception after the fight. Listen, he walked back to the corner by himself. He sat down by himself. He got up by himself. But you know, that is all said and done. I am so grateful for what HBO is doing for boxing. I enjoy everything that they do.”
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Re: Analyze: Chuck Wepner

Post by ThatOne »

http://97.74.65.51/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=34721

And quoting frontpage as a credible source on boxing is rich, especially coming from a person who deems any non-boxer unfit to write about boxing.


.
Last edited by ThatOne on 06 Mar 2010, 17:23, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Analyze: Chuck Wepner

Post by Collins2000 »

Brutu wrote:Source Joel Glickman(Bernie Glickman's son) in
Sonny Boy aka The Phantom Punch by Rob Steen.
Thanks.

:D
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Re: Analyze: Chuck Wepner

Post by granberry »

Yep.

Quoting Angelo Dundee, the ultimate shill for Ali,

and of course you get the gospel truth.
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Re: Analyze: Chuck Wepner

Post by granberry »

ThatOne wrote:http://97.74.65.51/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=34721

And quoting frontpage as a credible source on boxing is rich, especially coming from a person who deems any non-boxer unfit to write about boxing.


.
Learn how to read.

The quotes are from Thomas Hauser and Ferdie Pacheco:


When he finished the 14th round, Thomas Hauser, Ali’s official biographer tells film maker Dower, Ali told his trainer to cut his gloves off, that he was done, Pacheco says flatly that it was "the Muslims" who demanded their symbol return to the ring no matter what the cost to his person.
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Re: Analyze: Chuck Wepner

Post by ThatOne »

granberry wrote:Yep.

Quoting Angelo Dundee, the ultimate shill for Ali,

and of course you get the gospel truth.

Why would Ali quit in a fight where he was ahead 9-4-1 and had won the last three rounds convincingly?

Here's the card:


referee: Carlos Padilla 66-60 | judge: Larry Nadayag 66-62 | judge: Alfredo Quiazon 67-62 ~


http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=180&cat=boxer


And you are the one that said Hauser and Pacheco weren't credible sources.

How did they, all of a sudden, become credible sources?
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Re: Analyze: Chuck Wepner

Post by granberry »

The AGONY of the devout Religion of Ali member on display here.
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Re: Analyze: Chuck Wepner

Post by ThatOne »

granberry wrote:The AGONY of the devout Religion of Ali member on display here.

Is that the best you can do when I refuted all the opinions you futilely tried to pass off as facts?

A gentleman would just say "uncle".


The record showed that Ali and Frazier fought three times with Ali winning two of those bouts and the rubber match by a stoppage. Nothing you and the revisionists can do to change the events that happened that day some thirty five years ago in Quezon City no matter how much your passions and prejudices might dictate otherwise.
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Re: Analyze: Chuck Wepner

Post by Collins2000 »

granberry wrote:The AGONY of the devout Religion of Ali member on display here.
:D

True to form.
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Re: Analyze: Chuck Wepner

Post by granberry »

ThatOne wrote:
granberry wrote:The AGONY of the devout Religion of Ali member on display here.

Is that the best you can do when I refuted all the opinions you futilely tried to pass off as facts?

A gentleman would just say "uncle".


The record showed that Ali and Frazier fought three times with Ali winning two of those bouts and the rubber match by a stoppage. Nothing you and the revisionists can do to change the events that happened that day some thirty five years ago in Quezon City no matter how much your passions and prejudices might dictate otherwise.
The record shows Ali was a poisonous racist who would stop at nothing to get back at Joe Frazier

who beat him thoroughly and knocked him flat on his back
.


Image
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Re: Analyze: Chuck Wepner

Post by ThatOne »

Granberry- Too bad Ali got back up.


The Thrilla is the only fight that ended in a stoppage!


LOL
Last edited by ThatOne on 06 Mar 2010, 18:09, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Analyze: Chuck Wepner

Post by granberry »

Image

Joe Frazier beat Ali thoroughly and knocked him flat on his back.

And there is not a thing all the Ali shills in the world can do about it.
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