THE MEDIA'S SORRY ROLE

[Collins2000]

Unfortunately the fact that Ali was a member of the Nation of Islam nor the fact that he went too far in his verbal attacks on Frazier mean jack when discussing him as one of the greatest heavyweights to ever lace on a pair of gloves, which he was.

Yeah, but if the haters can't successfully trash him as a fighter they have to resort to trying to trash him as a man.

[hhaehre]

Unfortunately the fact that Ali was a member of the Nation of Islam nor the fact that he went too far in his verbal attacks on Frazier mean jack when discussing him as one of the greatest heavyweights to ever lace on a pair of gloves, which he was.

Yeah, but if the haters can't successfully trash him as a fighter they have to resort to trying to trash him as a man.

Do you think his treatment of Frazier was the mark of a great man? It must be ok to also discuss the dark side of Ali or is that off limits?

[Collins2000]

Unfortunately the fact that Ali was a member of the Nation of Islam nor the fact that he went too far in his verbal attacks on Frazier mean jack when discussing him as one of the greatest heavyweights to ever lace on a pair of gloves, which he was.

Yeah, but if the haters can't successfully trash him as a fighter they have to resort to trying to trash him as a man.

Do you think his treatment of Frazier was the mark of a great man? It must be ok to also discuss the dark side of Ali or is that off limits?

Joe seems to have got over it, mate. After 40 years don't you think you fellows can too? Or is it required to justify the hate?

[dempseyfire]

What does 'great heavyweight' have to do with being a 'great' man? Too completly different things. Ali was an extremely charismatic guy with major flaws like the rest of the human population. His greatness as a fighter has nothing to do with how he was outside the ring.

I personally think he was basically an overall good person who made some mistakes, some serious, when he was younger but some people as collins said can't seem to stop beating a dead horse.

[dempseyfire]

No, the NOI was based on the premise of blacks helping their own situations, seperately from whites, created in an era when it seemed like the promise of the Civil Rights movement would never come to fruition. It's roots go all the way back to the followers of Marcus Garvey.

Elijah Mohammad like most people who consider themselves living 'prophets' was an inherently corrupt fellow but there were good people who considered themselves black muslims, and the Nation did successfully reform many people who otherwise would've led lives of crime. It's completly understandable why such a reactionary black movement would gain some popularity in an era where blacks were getting attacked by police dogs and a black man could get beaten or worse by just looking at a white woman.

Unfortunately, the truth is always shades of grey and not the black and white people love to pidgeonhole things in.

[yancey]

Unfortunately the fact that Ali was a member of the Nation of Islam nor the fact that he went too far in his verbal attacks on Frazier mean jack when discussing him as one of the greatest heavyweights to ever lace on a pair of gloves, which he was.

Yeah, but if the haters can't successfully trash him as a fighter they have to resort to trying to trash him as a man.

Do you think his treatment of Frazier was the mark of a great man? It must be ok to also discuss the dark side of Ali or is that off limits?

Very interesting that those willing to discuss the dark side of Ali are automatically labeled as "haters" in some quarters.

It is a pretty small minded tactic, imo.

[Collins2000]

Very interesting that those willing to discuss the dark side of Ali are automatically labeled as "haters" in some quarters.

It is a pretty small minded tactic, imo.

Hahahahaha

Let's hear you say some good things about Ali, yancey.

[yancey]

Very interesting that those willing to discuss the dark side of Ali are automatically labeled as "haters" in some quarters.

It is a pretty small minded tactic, imo.

Hahahahaha

Let's hear you say some good things about Ali, yancey.

Don't wish to fight with you Collins, but I got to call it as I see it.

Throwing out the label "hater" on someone willing to discuss the dark side of Ali is a chickenshit move. You should be better than that.

I don't hate Ali.

He is certainly not one of my favorites, but he was a great fighter with a long career.

[Collins2000]

Very interesting that those willing to discuss the dark side of Ali are automatically labeled as "haters" in some quarters.

It is a pretty small minded tactic, imo.

Hahahahaha

Let's hear you say some good things about Ali, yancey.

Don't wish to fight with you Collins, but I got to call it as I see it.

Throwing out the label "hater" on someone willing to discuss the dark side of Ali is a chickenshit move. You should be better than that.

I don't hate Ali.

He is certainly not one of my favorites, but he was a great fighter with a long career.

"Hater", "Small-minded", "chickenshit", "poisonous racist", "fraud", "greatest" are all just labels, mate.

You stop using them and I'll be happy to follow suit.

[Ezzard]

NOI believed that wh1te people were created in a laboratory. You've got to love that idea!

They used Ali to help promote their rubbish. Ali was used and manipulated by them. I'm sure he regrets it.

On the racism angle it's very interesting that Ali kept his most spiteful jibes and actions to black opponents (Frazier, Terrell, Paterson). He never crossed the line with a wh1te opponent.

Also, despite the NOI and their teachings he maintained a relationship with Dundee throughout his career. The NOI did not like a Jewish guy looking after their number one asset, but Ali would not sack him. That has to tell you something about the man.

I agree that Ali did use the media to his advantage. And you do have to wade through some cr@p to get to the fighter. But there's plenty to support his ability that the media aren't able to over-hype.

[ThatOne]

NOI believed that wh1te people were created in a laboratory. You've got to love that idea!

They used Ali to help promote their rubbish. Ali was used and manipulated by them. I'm sure he regrets it.

On the racism angle it's very interesting that Ali kept his most spiteful jibes and actions to black opponents (Frazier, Terrell, Paterson). He never crossed the line with a wh1te opponent.

Also, despite the NOI and their teachings he maintained a relationship with Dundee throughout his career. The NOI did not like a Jewish guy looking after their number one asset, but Ali would not sack him. That has to tell you something about the man.

I agree that Ali did use the media to his advantage. And you do have to wade through some cr@p to get to the fighter. But there's plenty to support his ability that the media aren't able to over-hype.

Angee was Italian.

[ThatOne]

This thread deserves balance:

Muhammad Ali himself recalls an encounter with Jimmy, a young boy suffering from leukemia, who wanted to meet him before his epic fight with George Foreman in 1974. Before the boy left, Ali had a photograph taken of himself and Jimmy which he enlarged later and sent to the kid, with the inscription: “You’re going to beat cancer. I’m going to beat George. Love, Your friend, Muhammad Ali.”[10] Two weeks later Ali learned that Jimmy was in a hospital and not expected to live. Within three hours Ali was at the boy’s bedside.

When I walked in he was lying in his bed and I saw that his skin was as white as his sheets were.

Jimmy looked up with bright eyes and called out, “Muhammad, I knew you would come!”

I walked over to his bedside and said, “Jimmy, remember what I told you? I’m going to beat George Foreman and you’re going to beat cancer.”

Jimmy looked up at me and whispered, “No, Muhammad. I’m going to meet God, and I’m going to tell him that you are my friend.”

The room was silent and we were in tears. I hugged Jimmy good-bye and later that night when we returned to my training camp, none of us spoke much.[11]

A week later the boy died, and the father invited Ali to the funeral. Unable to attend, he sent Gene, his assistant. “When Gene returned from the funeral, he told [Ali] that there had been an open casket and that the autographed picture was beside Jimmy’s head.”[12]


http://www.americansc.org.uk/Online/Ali.htm

[ThatOne]

Even Ali’s opponents were positively influenced by him. Several years after his losses to Ali, Ken Norton suffered a serious automobile accident and had to be hospitalized, and doctors thought he might never walk again. One of the first persons to visit him was Ali. Norton remembered looking up,

…and there was this crazy man standing by my bed. It was Ali, and he was doing magic tricks for me. He made a handkerchief disappear; he levitated. And I said to myself, if he does one more awful trick, I’m going to get well just so I can kill him. But Ali was there, and his being there helped me. So I don’t want to be remembered as the man who broke Ali’s jaw. I just want to be remembered as a man who fought three close competitive fights with Ali, and became his friend when the fighting was over.[39]

Ernie Shavers, once a serious contender for the heavyweight title and later a preacher, testifies also to Ali’s significant influence on his life. Because he fought Ali, people he said, opened their hearts to him. “And that’s why I say, most of what I am today I owe to God, but I also owe a lot to Ali. I’ll never forget his kindness to me. The man has such a big heart. He just wants to help everybody. And seeing how he is today, his health, it kind of hurts me. But wherever I go, wherever I speak, I ask people to pray for Ali.”[40]


http://www.americansc.org.uk/Online/Ali.htm

[ThatOne]

It is important to note that although Muhammad Ali was a Muslim, he did not exclude any group from his humanitarian efforts. Given the longstanding conflict between Muslims and Jews in the United States and abroad, many would assume that Muhammad Ali would not consider contributing to any Jewish causes. However, many sources have documented his contribution to the Self Help Community Services Hillside Aged Program of Washington Heights, New York City. According to these reports, Ali discovered that the center, which provided recreational facilities for 54 aged and handicapped members, needed $100,000 or it would soon be forced to shut its doors.[50] Ferdie Pacheco remembers the occasion:




b]My mind flashes back to a hotel room in New York City before the first Frazier fight. Ali was watching the news. A story came on about ancient inhabitants of a Jewish nursing home who were being evicted because they couldn’t come up with $100,000. It was cold in New York, and the thought of those old people on the street got to Ali. Without any discussion, he reached for the phone and called the TV station. He would donate the $100,000 provided his name not be used. Ali did not want trouble from the Muslims or from certain members of the Ali Circus who were chronically “in need.” Money was given, it arrived in time, old people were saved, the curtain comes down, go to black and a happy ending[/b].

Not quite.

Someone leaked it to the New York newspapers, and Ali was on the front page.[51]

Later, when Ali was asked about this gesture, he said: “These poor crippled people came to this place to eat and talk with each other and draw a little and color, and that kept them alive. And no one else came up with the money. Didn’t matter they were white or Jewish. Somebody’s got to make a stand. Ain’t nobody helping nobody in this country. It’s dog eat dog. The dollar, the dollar, that’s all they worry about.”[52] In this simple yet profound statement, Ali reveals that his desire to aid others, particularly those who have fallen by the wayside, serves as an impetus in his life. Ali has continued his efforts to preserve the dignity and freedom of all peoples, regardless of race or creed to this very day, a fact recognized by the Givat Haviva Educational Foundation, which held a ceremony in 1998 honoring Ali for his humanitarian work.[53]



http://www.americansc.org.uk/Online/Ali.htm

[ThatOne]

My mind flashes back to a hotel room in New York City before the first Frazier fight. Ali was watching the news. A story came on about ancient inhabitants of a Jewish nursing home who were being evicted because they couldn’t come up with $100,000. It was cold in New York, and the thought of those old people on the street got to Ali. Without any discussion, he reached for the phone and called the TV station. He would donate the $100,000 provided his name not be used. Ali did not want trouble from the Muslims or from certain members of the Ali Circus who were chronically “in need.” Money was given, it arrived in time, old people were saved, the curtain comes down, go to black and a happy ending.

Not quite.

Someone leaked it to the New York newspapers, and Ali was on the front page.[51]

Later, when Ali was asked about this gesture, he said: “These poor crippled people came to this place to eat and talk with each other and draw a little and color, and that kept them alive. And no one else came up with the money. Didn’t matter they were white or Jewish. Somebody’s got to make a stand. Ain’t nobody helping nobody in this country. It’s dog eat dog. The dollar, the dollar, that’s all they worry about.”[52] In this simple yet profound statement, Ali reveals that his desire to aid others, particularly those who have fallen by the wayside, serves as an impetus in his life. Ali has continued his efforts to preserve the dignity and freedom of all peoples, regardless of race or creed to this very day, a fact recognized by the Givat Haviva Educational Foundation, which held a ceremony in 1998 honoring Ali for his humanitarian work.[53]



http://www.americansc.org.uk/Online/Ali.htm

[ThatOne]

Arthur Ashe, the great tennis player, supports the thesis that Ali, being more than an outstanding athlete, was a catalyst for social change, a model for positive imitation, and an exemplar for the world. As Ashe saw it, “Muhammad was a great athlete…But Ali went beyond that. He combined his athletic talent with social action during the 1960s, when both he and the black social revolution reached their peak. And the result was that he became an icon for literally millions of black Americans.”[91] He concluded referring to the 1968 Mexico City Olympics, that he really believed it was Ali’s social activism that gave John Thomas, Thomas Smith, and John Carlos the courage to raise their fists in protest. “Ali had to be on their minds. He was largely responsible for it becoming an expected part of a black athlete’s responsibility to get involved.”[92]

Sugar Ray Leonard, the great middleweight champion, also concluded that Ali was more than a boxer, while he was just a fighter. “I’m just a fighter. That’s all. If you want to know about greatness, watch Muhammad Ali. Watch people around Ali. If you put him in a hall of people with Castro and Gorbachev…everybody’d flock to Ali. That’s greatness.”[93]




http://www.americansc.org.uk/Online/Ali.htm

[ThatOne]

In the Sixties there was a phrase among Black people: “Tell it like it is.” Very few people are willing to speak of life in these terms, but there were two persons, possibly because of their association with Ali, who told it like it was. One of them was Ferdie Pacheco, known as boxing’s “fight doctor.” He was in a position to observe Ali’s effect on the populations surrounding him, and on the communities that he visited during his boxing career. Pacheco reminds us that Ali singlehandedly defused the idea that Black was ugly, and points out that prior to Ali:

Blacks were considered subhuman – hard word for me to say, but that’s what they were. In the South especially. That’s where Ali’s from, in the South. He comes along and by dint of his athletic ability, his graciousness, his funniness, his personality, and this incredibly good-looking body and face, he says to the camera, ‘Black is beautiful. Look at me. I’m prettier than anybody in Hollywood…and I’m black.’…By the time he got through, he had defused the idea that black was ugly. ‘You don’t have to worry about being black. Black is beautiful.’ And in that context alone, if you didn’t look at anything else, he was just as big as Martin Luther King, or anybody else, ‘cause he got black people thinking that they were good, nay, that they were better.”[45]

[Ezzard]

NOI believed that wh1te people were created in a laboratory. You've got to love that idea!

They used Ali to help promote their rubbish. Ali was used and manipulated by them. I'm sure he regrets it.

On the racism angle it's very interesting that Ali kept his most spiteful jibes and actions to black opponents (Frazier, Terrell, Paterson). He never crossed the line with a wh1te opponent.

Also, despite the NOI and their teachings he maintained a relationship with Dundee throughout his career. The NOI did not like a Jewish guy looking after their number one asset, but Ali would not sack him. That has to tell you something about the man.

I agree that Ali did use the media to his advantage. And you do have to wade through some cr@p to get to the fighter. But there's plenty to support his ability that the media aren't able to over-hype.

Angee was Italian.

If you're right I stand corrected but I've read from more than one source that he was Jewish. Anyone else know?

[ThatOne]

List of Italian Americans in sports

BOXERS

Lou Ambers (1913-1995), born Luigi d'Ambrosio, boxer.
Sammy Angott (born 1915 as Samuel Engotti
Carmen Basilio
Battling Battalino
Tony Canzoneri (1908-1959) boxer[1]
Primo Carnera, heavyweight boxing champion during the 1930s and later pro-wrestling champion.
Cus D'Amato (1908-1985) boxing manager and trainer[2]
Angelo Dundee (born 1923 as Angelo Merena), boxing trainer.
Lou Duva (born 1922), boxing trainer.
Arturo Gatti
Tony Galento
Frankie Genaro
Joey Giardello (born 1930 as Carmine Orlando Tilelli), boxing star during the 1950s and 1960s.
Rocky Graziano
Pete Herman (1896-1973), born Peter Gulotta, one of the all time great bantamweight boxer world champions.
Harry Jeffra (born 1914 as Ignazio Guiffo)
Rocky Kansas (1895-1954), born Rocco Tozzo, boxer.
Fidel La Barba
Jake LaMotta, (born 1921), boxer.
Vinny Maddalone
Paulie Malignaggi
Ray Mancini
Rocky Marciano (1924-1969), boxer, only heavyweight champion to retire undefeated.
Joey Maxim (1922-2001), born Giuseppe Antonio Berardinelli, boxer, world light heavyweight champion.
Willie Pastrano
Vinny Paz (born 1962), multiple world champion, born as Vinny Pazienza.
Willie Pep (brn 1922 as Gugliemo Papaleo)
Mike Rossman (Italian father)
Johnny Wilson (1893-1985), born Giovanni Panica, boxer.
Young Corbett III, born Raffaele Capabianca Giordano (1905 - 1993), world welterweight boxing champion.
Frankie Doyle,born Frank Dolcmascolo 1920, (1938-41)Diamond Gloves Bantamweight Champion one of 5 brothers known as the Fightin' Doyle brothers of Garfield, NJ
Alex Doyle, born Alexander Dolcemascolo 1921, (1938-1948) top ten ranked Jr. Welterweight. NJ State champion, NJ Boxing Hallof Fame
Midget Doyle, born Michaeli Dolcemascolo, 1917, (1935-1945)top ten ranked Bantamweight, NJ State Champion, NJ Boxing Hall of Fame.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_It ... _in_sports

[BoxBuzz]

It is possible for one to be both.

[granberry]

The Left mobilized to do to Joe Frazier the man what Muhammad Ali the boxer could not do in the ring: destroy him as a man. Shameless idiots like Bryant Gumbel wrote that "Joe Frazier is the white man's champion," while Cosell made a career out of serving as Ali's journalism pimp and jester.

By the time the two would meet in Manila for their ultimate confrontation in 1975, Ali was king of the media. His racist attacks reached new lows while the press corps giggled along.

"The language of racial superiority shaped Ali’s attacks on Joe Frazier, and in Manila, his relentless use of the word gorilla took on a sinister tone," Schreiber says.

It began at a press conference when Ali began his familiar rhyming sessions. "It will be a thrilla when I get the gorilla in Manila," he boasts, then whips out a rubber gorilla that he called "the soul of Joe Frazier" and began beating on it. But it was more than just words, it became a full-fledged theme that spread out to T-shirts, dolls and even men in costumes sparring in Ali’s ring.

"Ali portrayed Joe Frazier as inferior, not only as a boxer but as a human being," the film offers, showing clips of Ali using such terms as "Flat nose, ugly pug, can’t dance, ignorant" and the ubiquitous, "gorilla."

http://97.74.65.51/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=34721

[ThatOne]

The Left mobilized to do to Joe Frazier the man what Muhammad Ali the boxer could not do in the ring: destroy him as a man. Shameless idiots like Bryant Gumbel wrote that "Joe Frazier is the white man's champion," while Cosell made a career out of serving as Ali's journalism pimp and jester.

By the time the two would meet in Manila for their ultimate confrontation in 1975, Ali was king of the media. His racist attacks reached new lows while the press corps giggled along.

"The language of racial superiority shaped Ali’s attacks on Joe Frazier, and in Manila, his relentless use of the word gorilla took on a sinister tone," Schreiber says.

It began at a press conference when Ali began his familiar rhyming sessions. "It will be a thrilla when I get the gorilla in Manila," he boasts, then whips out a rubber gorilla that he called "the soul of Joe Frazier" and began beating on it. But it was more than just words, it became a full-fledged theme that spread out to T-shirts, dolls and even men in costumes sparring in Ali’s ring.

"Ali portrayed Joe Frazier as inferior, not only as a boxer but as a human being," the film offers, showing clips of Ali using such terms as "Flat nose, ugly pug, can’t dance, ignorant" and the ubiquitous, "gorilla."

http://97.74.65.51/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=34721

My mind flashes back to a hotel room in New York City before the first Frazier fight. Ali was watching the news. A story came on about ancient inhabitants of a Jewish nursing home who were being evicted because they couldn’t come up with $100,000. It was cold in New York, and the thought of those old people on the street got to Ali. Without any discussion, he reached for the phone and called the TV station. He would donate the $100,000 provided his name not be used. Ali did not want trouble from the Muslims or from certain members of the Ali Circus who were chronically “in need.” Money was given, it arrived in time, old people were saved, the curtain comes down, go to black and a happy ending.

Not quite.

Someone leaked it to the New York newspapers, and Ali was on the front page.[51]

Later, when Ali was asked about this gesture, he said: “These poor crippled people came to this place to eat and talk with each other and draw a little and color, and that kept them alive. And no one else came up with the money. Didn’t matter they were white or Jewish. Somebody’s got to make a stand. Ain’t nobody helping nobody in this country. It’s dog eat dog. The dollar, the dollar, that’s all they worry about.”[52] In this simple yet profound statement, Ali reveals that his desire to aid others, particularly those who have fallen by the wayside, serves as an impetus in his life. Ali has continued his efforts to preserve the dignity and freedom of all peoples, regardless of race or creed to this very day, a fact recognized by the Givat Haviva Educational Foundation, which held a ceremony in 1998 honoring Ali for his humanitarian work.[53]



http://www.americansc.org.uk/Online/Ali.htm

[Ezzard]

It is possible for one to be both.

That's what I thought...

"And when Ali went from Cassius Clay to Cassius X to Muhammad Ali, Angelo, a Philly Jew, stuck by the Muslim."

http://www.thecnj.com/review/2008/09040 ... 08_01.html

Chris Dundee spent his last years at a Jewish nursing home in Miami. I just took it they were a Jewish family.

[ThatOne]

It is possible for one to be both.

That's what I thought...

"And when Ali went from Cassius Clay to Cassius X to Muhammad Ali, Angelo, a Philly Jew, stuck by the Muslim."

http://www.thecnj.com/review/2008/09040 ... 08_01.html

Chris Dundee spent his last years at a Jewish nursing home in Miami. I just took it they were a Jewish family.

Indeed one can be Italian and Jewish but Italian- Catholic is the more likely combination. But I heard Angelo Dundee says he's a Catholic in discussing Ali's Muslim faith. Angee said he never go into Muhammad's "personal life."

[granberry]

Here is a youtube video of Ali doing his vile racist depicting of his opponent Joe Frazier as a gorilla.

And you can hear his audience laughing with delight.

What kind of mentality would find such poison amusing?

Watch from 1:55 on

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ37lyT6u8Y

And another disgusting video of Ali depicting Frazier as a "gorilla."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOeyxA3JOwo