Was Frazier a shot fighter after he fought Foreman?

[Controversial]

As we all know Joe Frazier was undefeated before fighting Foreman (29-0 with 25kos). After Foreman destroyed him Frazier only fought 7 more times going 3-3-1 (he was stopped in two of these)

Some say Frazier struggled to beat Bugner who he fought in his next fight after losing to Foreman the first time.
Do you think the beating he took from Foreman took something away from Frazier? Do you think the two wins Ali had over Frazier are slightly tarnished or was Frazier still the man he was before the Foreman fight?

[MEISINGER]

frazier was a tough as nails type if guy
but the beatings he took from foreman took quite a bit
out of the guy
i would not say shot but definately not peak

[Goodnight, Irene]

As we all know Joe Frazier was undefeated before fighting Foreman (29-0 with 25kos). After Foreman destroyed him Frazier only fought 7 more times going 3-3-1 (he was stopped in two of these)

Some say Frazier struggled to beat Bugner who he fought in his next fight after losing to Foreman the first time.
Do you think the beating he took from Foreman took something away from Frazier? Do you think the two wins Ali had over Frazier are slightly tarnished or was Frazier still the man he was before the Foreman fight?

Shot is a term I consider for fighters who are really at the end of their tether --- more severe than simply over-the-hill. After the first fight with Foreman, no, I don't consider Frazier, "shot."

Absolutely, it took something away from him, though, & I don't consider Ali's victories over Frazier tarnished, because he, too, was past-it for those fights. Not shot, but certainly post-prime.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

His eye sight was terrible by that point. Fighting with one eye is a recipe for being "shot". Joe's style was made for a shorter career anyway.

Ali's wins most certainly weren't tarnished. Frazier wasn't the same fighter as he was in 1971, but he was still Top3 in the world.

[ThatOne]

As we all know Joe Frazier was undefeated before fighting Foreman (29-0 with 25kos). After Foreman destroyed him Frazier only fought 7 more times going 3-3-1 (he was stopped in two of these)

Some say Frazier struggled to beat Bugner who he fought in his next fight after losing to Foreman the first time.
Do you think the beating he took from Foreman took something away from Frazier? Do you think the two wins Ali had over Frazier are slightly tarnished or was Frazier still the man he was before the Foreman fight?

The argument can be made and was made at the time that Frazier was never the same fighter after his first fight with Ali because it took so much out of him.

[Ezzard]

Psychological as well. Joe reached his zenith beating Ali. He beat him and still didn't get the credit he deserved from many.

Agree with Saad. He was still a major force in the division he just wasn't quite what he was.

[Controversial]

Psychological as well. Joe reached his zenith beating Ali. He beat him and still didn't get the credit he deserved from many.

Agree with Saad. He was still a major force in the division he just wasn't quite what he was.

Was he still a major force?

He struggled to beat Bugner, lost twice to Ali and was stopped by Foreman in their rematch. His best win was over Quarry however Jerry was only two fights away from retiring for the first time. Ellis who was on a losing streak and way past his best and he retired one fight after being beaten by Frazier.

Frazier's record doesn't look too great after the Foreman defeat. Maybe the Ali fights were deceiving in that they gave the impression Frazier was still a top level fighter, when in fact he had lost his edge and was on the decline.

[ThatOne]

Psychological as well. Joe reached his zenith beating Ali. He beat him and still didn't get the credit he deserved from many.

Agree with Saad. He was still a major force in the division he just wasn't quite what he was.

Was he still a major force?

He struggled to beat Bugner, lost twice to Ali and was stopped by Foreman in their rematch. His best win was over Quarry however Jerry was only two fights away from retiring for the first time. Ellis who was on a losing streak and way past his best and he retired one fight after being beaten by Frazier.

Frazier's record doesn't look too great after the Foreman defeat. Maybe the Ali fights were deceiving in that they gave the impression Frazier was still a top level fighter, when in fact he had lost his edge and was on the decline.

He was never the same after the first Ali fight. He absorbed a hell of a beating. He was hospitalized for a month after the fight with kidney/hypertension problems. It wasn't because of bodyshots because Ali was a notorious head hunter but from the severe dehydration and the beating he took in that fignt.

[Flump]

Psychological as well. Joe reached his zenith beating Ali. He beat him and still didn't get the credit he deserved from many.

Agree with Saad. He was still a major force in the division he just wasn't quite what he was.

Agreed. A shot fighter wouldn't have been able to put up the showing he did in Manila or batter Quarry, who came into the rematch on a roll. He looked like a shot fighter against Cummings, as well as out of practice, but still had the heart to get through 10 tough rounds.

He was scheduled to fight Kallie Knoetze in about 1978, how would you guys see that one going?

[granberry]

Psychological as well. Joe reached his zenith beating Ali. He beat him and still didn't get the credit he deserved from many.

Agree with Saad. He was still a major force in the division he just wasn't quite what he was.

Was he still a major force?

He struggled to beat Bugner, lost twice to Ali and was stopped by Foreman in their rematch. His best win was over Quarry however Jerry was only two fights away from retiring for the first time. Ellis who was on a losing streak and way past his best and he retired one fight after being beaten by Frazier.

Frazier's record doesn't look too great after the Foreman defeat. Maybe the Ali fights were deceiving in that they gave the impression Frazier was still a top level fighter, when in fact he had lost his edge and was on the decline.

He was never the same after the first Ali fight. He absorbed a hell of a beating. He was hospitalized for a month after the fight with kidney/hypertension problems. It wasn't because of bodyshots because Ali was a notorious head hunter but from the severe dehydration and the beating he took in that fignt.

The Hauserites are never let in on the most basic info on the first Frazier-Ali fight:

TWO commission doctors refused to approve Frazier before the fight because he had a kidney infection.

Finally they got a third doctor who agreed to pass him.

As soon as he beat Ali and knocked Ali flat on his back in the final round, he went into the hospital to be treated for his severe kidney infection.

Ali took a horrible beating in that fight.
He is not known as "the human punching bag" for nothing.

Frazier could PUNCH, and he had Ali hurt in most of the rounds of that fight.

The beating Ali took on the ropes at the end of the tenth round was horrible.
And that was followed by what even longtime Ali salesman Ferdie Pacheco termed the "terrible eleventh"--the round where Ali went down on both knees from a Frazier left hook near the beginning of the round, and then staggered like a drunk around the ring for much of the rest of the round to the point where some refs may have stopped it.

The head beating Ali took from Frazier in that bout was not healthy.

[Controversial]

Was he still a major force?

He struggled to beat Bugner, lost twice to Ali and was stopped by Foreman in their rematch. His best win was over Quarry however Jerry was only two fights away from retiring for the first time. Ellis who was on a losing streak and way past his best and he retired one fight after being beaten by Frazier.

Frazier's record doesn't look too great after the Foreman defeat. Maybe the Ali fights were deceiving in that they gave the impression Frazier was still a top level fighter, when in fact he had lost his edge and was on the decline.

He was never the same after the first Ali fight. He absorbed a hell of a beating. He was hospitalized for a month after the fight with kidney/hypertension problems. It wasn't because of bodyshots because Ali was a notorious head hunter but from the severe dehydration and the beating he took in that fignt.

The Hauserites are never let in on the most basic info on the first Frazier-Ali fight:

TWO commission doctors refused to approve Frazier before the fight because he had a kidney infection.

Finally they got a third doctor who agreed to pass him.

As soon as he beat Ali and knocked Ali flat on his back in the final round, he went into the hospital to be treated for his severe kidney infection.

Ali took a horrible beating in that fight.
He is not known as "the human punching bag" for nothing.

Frazier could PUNCH, and he had Ali hurt in most of the rounds of that fight.

The beating Ali took on the ropes at the end of the tenth round was horrible.
And that was followed by what even longtime Ali salesman Ferdie Pacheco termed the "terrible eleventh"--the round where Ali went down on both knees from a Frazier left hook near the beginning of the round, and then staggered like a drunk around the ring for much of the rest of the round to the point where some refs may have stopped it.

The head beating Ali took from Frazier in that bout was not healthy.

Back to the topic, do you think Frazier was on the decline after the beating Foreman gave him?

[ThatOne]

Was he still a major force?

He struggled to beat Bugner, lost twice to Ali and was stopped by Foreman in their rematch. His best win was over Quarry however Jerry was only two fights away from retiring for the first time. Ellis who was on a losing streak and way past his best and he retired one fight after being beaten by Frazier.

Frazier's record doesn't look too great after the Foreman defeat. Maybe the Ali fights were deceiving in that they gave the impression Frazier was still a top level fighter, when in fact he had lost his edge and was on the decline.

He was never the same after the first Ali fight. He absorbed a hell of a beating. He was hospitalized for a month after the fight with kidney/hypertension problems. It wasn't because of bodyshots because Ali was a notorious head hunter but from the severe dehydration and the beating he took in that fignt.

The Hauserites are never let in on the most basic info on the first Frazier-Ali fight:

TWO commission doctors refused to approve Frazier before the fight because he had a kidney infection.

Finally they got a third doctor who agreed to pass him.

As soon as he beat Ali and knocked Ali flat on his back in the final round, he went into the hospital to be treated for his severe kidney infection.

Ali took a horrible beating in that fight.
He is not known as "the human punching bag" for nothing.

Frazier could PUNCH, and he had Ali hurt in most of the rounds of that fight.

The beating Ali took on the ropes at the end of the tenth round was horrible.
And that was followed by what even longtime Ali salesman Ferdie Pacheco termed the "terrible eleventh"--the round where Ali went down on both knees from a Frazier left hook near the beginning of the round, and then staggered like a drunk around the ring for much of the rest of the round to the point where some refs may have stopped it.

The head beating Ali took from Frazier in that bout was not healthy.

[ThatOne]

Frazier was damaged goods after the first Ali fight as witnessed by his lackluster performanes after it.

Ali, on the other hand went on to win the fights that defined his career; the defeat of George Foreman-the anihilator of Joe Frazier and Ken Norton,and his epic battles with Joe Frazier.

[granberry]

The last two Frazier-Ali fights are only "epic battles"

in the minds of the Thomas Hauserites.

In reality they were mediocre heavyweight fights.

The 2nd --a sorry exhibition if there ever was one--was where stooge 'referee' Tony Perez gave Ali over 100 'warnings' for pulling Frazier's head down, without ever taking a single point away from Ali.

The 3rd was a fight between two shot fighters:

Frazier llooked like Archie Moore in his old age, with his legs locked at the knee so he could hardly move

and Ali couln't get out of the way of Frazier's left hook.

The first Ali-Frazier fight was the defining fight of Ali's career.

The two got into the ring as undefeated fighters.

Ali left the ring as a beaten fighter.

The walking army of Hauserites try to direct attention away from that by claiming the later two fights were significant--which they definitely were not.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

And here we go, another thread bites the dust. Awesome

[granberry]

The walking army of Thomas Hauserites demand a ONE-WAY communication.

The real world doesn't work that way.

[BoxBuzz]

Tony balanced the ledger though, when Joe got in over his head, the ref jumped right in to give him a bit of a needed breather.

[granberry]

Tony balanced the ledger though, when Joe got in over his head, the ref jumped right in to give him a bit of a needed breather.

Stooge 'referee' Perez' actions in giving Ali over ONE HUNDRED warnings for the same infraction WITHOUT EVER TAKING A SINGLE POINT AWAY FROM HIM made a farce out of that 'fight.'

A fight only a Thomas Hauserite could love.

[BoxBuzz]

ya think?

[raylawpc]

Joe Frazier is my favorite heavyweight. I would have named my oldest son after him if my wife would have let me.

That said:

"Shot?" No, far from it.

"An elite fighter beginning to show diminishing skills?" I'd say, at that point, yes.

[Counter-puncher]

As we all know Joe Frazier was undefeated before fighting Foreman (29-0 with 25kos). After Foreman destroyed him Frazier only fought 7 more times going 3-3-1 (he was stopped in two of these)

Some say Frazier struggled to beat Bugner who he fought in his next fight after losing to Foreman the first time.
Do you think the beating he took from Foreman took something away from Frazier? Do you think the two wins Ali had over Frazier are slightly tarnished or was Frazier still the man he was before the Foreman fight?

The argument can be made and was made at the time that Frazier was never the same fighter after his first fight with Ali because it took so much out of him.

surely the first Ali-Frazier fight took more out of Ali though?>

[ThatOne]

As we all know Joe Frazier was undefeated before fighting Foreman (29-0 with 25kos). After Foreman destroyed him Frazier only fought 7 more times going 3-3-1 (he was stopped in two of these)

Some say Frazier struggled to beat Bugner who he fought in his next fight after losing to Foreman the first time.
Do you think the beating he took from Foreman took something away from Frazier? Do you think the two wins Ali had over Frazier are slightly tarnished or was Frazier still the man he was before the Foreman fight?

The argument can be made and was made at the time that Frazier was never the same fighter after his first fight with Ali because it took so much out of him.

surely the first Ali-Frazier fight took more out of Ali though?>

Is that why he went on to stop George Foreman, the only boxer to do so in Foreman's eighty one fights?

As well as beat Joe Frazier the next time they fought and the time after that?

[ThatOne]

Frazier llooked like Archie Moore in his old age, with his legs locked at the knee so he could hardly move"


-Granberry

He was the ripe old age of thirty one for their rubber match, two years younger than Ali.



And you're the one that implied Ali was in his prime when he was 34 for the Young fight and 36 for the Spinks fight.


"Hypocrisy: a lie in action - the legacy of indecency”

[Counter-puncher]

i asked the question my dear man because Frazier won the first fight. so saying it took more out of him than Ali sounds a bit odd. wouldn't you say?

and bearing in mind Ali was the one whose brain ended up resembling cabbage soup, and not Frazier's, regardless of their results afterwards, i think we can say Ali despite winning 2/3, took more overal damage- bear in mind Frazier's punches were clearly heavier.

anyway- there's a logical error i think you make. just because Ali went to beat Foreman does not necessarily mean he came out of the first Frazier fight better than Frazier did. because, circular logic doesn't work blah blah blah.

now all we need, by the way, is granberry's favourite photo of Ali on the canvas and some sort of 'this is Ali suffering less from the first Frazier fight' comment. you know?

anyways if you're talking shot, i believe Ali's internal organs- bleeding in his kidneys or godnowswhatelse- were shot from the early-mid 70s. testaments, i believe, to the beating his body received at the hands of Frazier

[ThatOne]

1) If you include the amateurs and sparring , Ali boxed 20,000 rounds. To attribute his condition to this fight or that fight is not supported by the facts.

2) Ali's brain is not cabbage. He is not non compes mentes. He suffers from a debilitating neurological disorder which affects his motor skills but his thinking is largely intact. There is a poster here whose father suffered from that terrible disease. I think he will support what I am saying.

3) If Ali's kidneys were shot in the late 70's it unfathomable he is alive today unless he had a kidney transplant. You don't live 30 , 40 years with shot kidneys.

4) Ali's best years were taken away from him by the U.S. governement. Every one of his opponents he faced after the exile including Joe Frazier were beneficiaries of that action.