Was Frazier a shot fighter after he fought Foreman?

[Robinson]

Its a hard one, I do not think that the boxing commison had any
right in stripping Ali of his title. At the same time I do not think
Ali is any hero for not being inducted. BUT that is besides the
point...

I personally think had Ali and Frazier fought say around 1969-70
should Ali have been still the active champion, I think the outcome
would have been much the same, though who can say ?

In any case Frazier did nothing wrong, he picked up where 'Ali
left off' and became an excellent and exciting champ, he did
everything he could to get Ali back into boxing...and then he
gave Ali the time he needed to get ready for the superfight..
and we all know what happened.

So no excuses need to be made for either man, both gave us
a great fight and made the best with what they had and believed
and prepared as though they were going to win.

Post 1971, Frazier seemed to load up a little more with his shots
and in some ways fell in love with his left hook and his own power.
The active tenacity he displayed earlier seemed to shift towards
a more of a power puncher...just ever so slightly but enough to
change things a tad.

Also the active, constant aggressive style is something that is
hard for a fighter to sustain over some years, youth gives way
to experience and conservation of the energy..for better and
worse. Frazier always had his power and post Foreman '73 he
lost only to two men... Foreman and Ali. Though he never looked
as 'great' he still was formidable. You can't knock him for beating
two of the greats of the ring, whether he was prime or not.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Nice post, I don't think any version of Ali beats Frazier in the Garden that night. He just wasn't going to be denied. Muhammad fought a good fight. I don't know if a pre layoff Ali would have been able to last the distance against that onslaught.

[Robinson]

I do not think that the younger pre exile Ali was as
durable as his older self. He had the traits of youth,
those talented leg, a sharper jab and all that speed..
sure he had tremendous powers of recovery..

BUt.. I think the 'older' Ali had more pride and the
ability to take punishment that comes with that
stubborness.

I doubt too many men would have beaten that near
perfect mechanism of destruction, that was Frazier
on that night.

[raylawpc]

1) If you include the amateurs and sparring , Ali boxed 20,000 rounds. To attribute his condition to this fight or that fight is not supported by the facts.

2) Ali's brain is not cabbage. He is not non compes mentes. He suffers from a debilitating neurological disorder which affects his motor skills but his thinking is largely intact. There is a poster here whose father suffered from that terrible disease. I think he will support what I am saying.

3) If Ali's kidneys were shot in the late 70's it unfathomable he is alive today unless he had a kidney transplant. You don't live 30 , 40 years with shot kidneys.

4) Ali's best years were taken away from him by the U.S. governement. Every one of his opponents he faced after the exile including Joe Frazier were beneficiaries of that action.

I suppose I am that poster. Regarding point number 2, Ali's cognitive abilities may be okay now, but eventually the Parkinson's will cause him to loose his mental awareness, in a manner similar to Alzeheimer's. Sadly, if he dies from Parkinson's related complications, he will die a miserable death.

I saw what you posted on another thread about how you would rather be Ali than Frazier, even given the latter's Parkinson's. My Dad died on February 17th from Parkinson's related complications, and I can assure you, based on my personal experience with my Dad, that I would not be Muhammad Ali today for a billion dollars.

[ThatOne]

1) If you include the amateurs and sparring , Ali boxed 20,000 rounds. To attribute his condition to this fight or that fight is not supported by the facts.

2) Ali's brain is not cabbage. He is not non compes mentes. He suffers from a debilitating neurological disorder which affects his motor skills but his thinking is largely intact. There is a poster here whose father suffered from that terrible disease. I think he will support what I am saying.

3) If Ali's kidneys were shot in the late 70's it unfathomable he is alive today unless he had a kidney transplant. You don't live 30 , 40 years with shot kidneys.

4) Ali's best years were taken away from him by the U.S. governement. Every one of his opponents he faced after the exile including Joe Frazier were beneficiaries of that action.

I suppose I am that poster. Regarding point number 2, Ali's cognitive abilities may be okay now, but eventually the Parkinson's will cause him to loose those his mental awareness, in a manner similar to Alzeheimer's. Sadly, if he dies from Parkinson's related complications, he will die a miserable death.

I saw what you posted on another thread about how you would rather be Ali than Frazier, even given the latter's Parkinson's. My Dad died on February 17th from Parkinson's related complications, and I can assure you, based on my personal experience with my Dad, that I would not be Muhammad Ali today for a billion dollars.

So sorry about your dad.

[granberry]

Ali's years were taken away from by him his own actions.

Actions dictated by the Nation of Islam of which he was a puppet.

[Robinson]

ray, sorry to hear about your Dad mate. Its not a fate
wished onto anyone.

[raylawpc]

Thanks ThatOne and Robinson. I appreciate your kind words.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Best wishes on that, I'm looking out for my pop now. He is healthy but slipping a bit mentally. Parkinson's is real bad stuff, I hope he didn't suffer too long.

[ThatOne]

Ali's years were taken away from by him his own actions.

Actions dictated by the Nation of Islam of which he was a puppet.

111th CONGRESS
1st Session


H. R. 2648



To authorize the President to award a gold medal on behalf of Congress to Muhammad Ali in recognition of his contributions to the Nation.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

June 2, 2009


Mr. Carson of Indiana (for himself, Mr. Pascrell, Mr. Conyers, Mr. Cummings, Mr. Meeks of New York, Ms. Norton, Mr. Davis of Illinois, Mr. Payne, Ms. Fudge, Mrs. Christensen, Mr. Fattah, Mr. Al Green of Texas, Mr. Jackson of Illinois, Ms. Jackson-Lee of Texas, Mr. Johnson of Georgia, Mr. Lewis of Georgia, Mr. Scott of Virginia, Ms. Watson, Mr. Towns, Mr. Butterfield, Mr. Serrano, Mr. Davis of Alabama, Mr. Honda, Mr. Moran of Virginia, Mr. Baca, Ms. Corrine Brown of Florida, Mr. McGovern, and Ms. Kilpatrick of Michigan) introduced the following bill; which was referred to the Committee on Financial Services




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


A BILL

To authorize the President to award a gold medal on behalf of Congress to Muhammad Ali in recognition of his contributions to the Nation.


Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,


SECTION 1. Findings.


Congress finds the following:


(1) Born Cassius Marcellus Clay, Jr., on January 17, 1942, in Louisville, Kentucky, Muhammad Ali was the first child of Cassius, Sr. and Odessa Clay.

(2) Muhammad Ali is one of the most celebrated athletes of the 20th century. He has produced some of America’s greatest sports memories, from winning a gold medal at the 1960 Summer Olympics to lighting the Olympic torch at the 1996 Summer Olympics.

(3) After an impressive amateur career, during which he recorded 131 wins and only 7 losses and won 2 National AAU light heavyweight titles, Muhammad Ali became the first professional boxer in history to capture the heavyweight title 3 separate times.

(4) Muhammad Ali defeated every challenger he faced in the ring. But on April 28, 1967, he was stripped of his boxing title and barred from competing for being a conscientious objector to the war in Vietnam on religious and moral grounds. However, following a unanimous United States Supreme Court decision in 1971, Muhammad Ali’s conscientious objector status was confirmed, his boxing license was reinstated, and he was cleared of any wrong doing.

(5) As an African-American and a Muslim living in an era that continued to question his civil rights, Muhammad Ali battled issues of race and religion, and has received recognition as one of the champions of the Civil Rights Movement in the United States.

(6) Muhammad Ali is the recipient of many awards for his sporting prowess and his support of racial harmony, including the Dr. Martin Luther King Memorial Award, the Spirit of America Award, the Amnesty International Lifetime Achievement Award, the Arthur Ashe Award for Courage, the Essence Living Legend Award, the Rainbow Coalition Lifetime Achievement Award, the XNBA Human Spirit Award, the Presidential Citizens Medal, and the Presidential Medal of Freedom.

(7) Muhammad Ali has been acknowledged by many organizations for his achievements both inside and outside the boxing ring, including being crowned “Sportsman of the Century” by Sports Illustrated, being named “Athlete of the Century” by GQ magazine, being named “Sports Personality of the Century” by the British Broadcasting Corporation, being named “Kentucky Athlete of the Century” by the Kentucky Athletic Hall of Fame, being named “Kentuckian of the Century” by the State of Kentucky, being named “Louisvillian of the Century” by the Advertising Club of Louisville, being named “Boxer of the Century” by the World Sports Awards of the Century, being recognized by the International Boxing Hall of Fame, and receiving honorary doctorate degrees from Muhlenberg College and Western Kentucky University, as well as an honorary doctorate of humanities at Princeton University’s 260th graduation ceremony.

(8) Muhammad Ali received the prestigious “Otto Hahn Peace Medal in Gold” from the United Nations Association of Germany for his work with the United Nations and the Civil Rights Movement in the United States.

(9) Muhammad Ali was selected by the California Bicentennial Foundation for the U.S. Constitution to personify the vitality of the Bill of Rights in various high-profile activities.

(10) Despite having been diagnosed with Parkinson’s Syndrome in the early 1980s, Muhammad Ali has dedicated his life to the cause of universal human rights and freedom. His commitment to equal justice and peace has touched the lives of hundreds of thousands of people worldwide.

(11) President Jimmy Carter asked Muhammad Ali to meet with African leaders in Tanzania, Kenya, Nigeria, Liberia, and Senegal as part of President Carter’s diplomatic efforts on behalf of human rights in the 1980s.

(12) In 1990, Muhammad Ali traveled to the Middle East to seek the release of American and British hostages that were being held as human shields in the first Gulf War. As a result of his intervention, 15 United States hostages were freed on December 2nd.

(13) Muhammad Ali was chosen as the “U.N. Messenger of Peace” in 1998.

(14) Several Presidents of the United States have recognized Muhammad Ali, including President George W. Bush who, on November 17, 2002, called him “a man of peace” and stated that “across the world, billions of people know Muhammad Ali as a brave, compassionate, and charming man, and the American people are proud to call Muhammad Ali one of our own”, President Bill Clinton who stated that Muhammad Ali “captured the world’s imagination and its heart. Outside the ring, Muhammad Ali has dedicated his life to working for children, feeding the hungry, supporting his faith, and standing up for racial equality. He has always fought for a just and more humane world, breaking down barriers here in America and around the world. There are no telling how many tens of millions of people had their hearts swell with pride and their eyes swell with tears in 1996 when Muhammad Ali lit the Olympic torch, because we know, now and forever, he is the greatest”, President Jimmy Carter who cited Muhammad Ali as “Mr. International Friendship”, and President Barack Obama who, as a Senator, had a framed picture of Muhammad Ali hanging in his office, and before announcing his intentions to run for President, Obama visited with Muhammad Ali at the Ali Center in Louisville, Kentucky.

(15) Muhammad Ali continues to encourage humanity through his perseverance and the support of thousands of people. He has helped such organizations as the Chicago-based adoption agency, The Cradle; the Make-A-Wish Foundation; the Special Olympics’ organization, Best Buddies; and Herbert E. Birch Services, an organization that runs a school for handicapped children and young adults, in addition to a summer camp for children infected with AIDS.

(16) Muhammad Ali and his wife Lonnie are founding directors of the Muhammad Ali Parkinson Center in Phoenix, Arizona, and have helped raise over $50 million for Parkinson’s research. The Center’s mission is to provide excellence in treatment, research, and education for patients and families affected by Parkinson’s disease and other movement disorders, regardless of ability to pay.

(17) Muhammad Ali is an inspiration to countless individuals with Parkinson’s disease, including members of the Rock Steady Boxing Foundation in Indianapolis, Indiana, which was founded to give people with Parkinson’s disease hope by improving their quality of life using boxing for fitness.

(18) Muhammad Ali is one of the founding members of Athletes for Hope, an organization created by a few very successful athletes of exemplary character who have a deep commitment to charitable and community causes.

(19) Muhammad Ali also established the Muhammad Ali Center in his hometown of Louisville, Kentucky, which promotes respect, hope, and understanding, and inspires people everywhere to be as great as they can be. A visitor of the Muhammad Ali Center experiences the “hows” of Ali’s life: how he found the courage, the dedication, and the discipline to become who he is today; how he found the conviction to stand up for what he believed; and how he turned his passion for excellence in the ring to a passion for peace on the world stage.

(20) Like Muhammad Ali himself, the Muhammad Ali Center focuses on what brings individuals together, not what sets them apart, and is a “global gathering place” to which people can come, both online and in person, to learn, share, and celebrate our commonalities as human beings and to formulate ways of advancing humanity.

(21) Muhammad Ali has helped to provide more than 22,000,000 aid packets to assist people in need, and until recently traveled, on average, more than 200 days per year for humanitarian causes.

(22) Muhammad Ali, known simply as “the greatest”, has transcended the glamour and glory of being a sports champion to become not only one of the greatest sports figures, but one of the greatest role models of our time.


SEC. 2. Congressional gold medal.


(a) Presentation authorized.—The Speaker of the House of Representatives and the President Pro Tempore of the Senate shall make appropriate arrangements for the presentation, on behalf of Congress, of a gold medal of appropriate design, to Muhammad Ali in recognition of his contributions to the Nation.

(b) Design and striking.—For the purpose of the presentation referred to in subsection (a), the Secretary of the Treasury (hereinafter in this Act referred to as the “Secretary”) shall strike a gold medal with suitable emblems, devices, and inscriptions to be determined by the Secretary.


SEC. 3. Duplicate medals.


Under such regulations as the Secretary may prescribe, the Secretary may strike and sell duplicates in bronze of the gold medal struck pursuant to section 2 at a price sufficient to cover the cost of the bronze medals (including labor, materials, dies, use of machinery, and overhead expenses) and the cost of the gold medal.



SEC. 4. National medals.


The medals struck under this Act are national medals for purposes of chapter 51 of title 31, United States Code.



SEC. 5. Authority to use fund amounts; proceeds of sale.


(a) Authorization To use fund amounts.—There is authorized to be charged against the United States Mint Public Enterprise Fund, such amounts as may be necessary to pay for the cost of the medals struck pursuant to this Act.

(b) Proceeds of sale.—Amounts received from the sale of duplicate bronze medals under section 3 shall be deposited in the United States Mint Public Enterprise Fund.

[ThatOne]

Ali's years were taken away from by him his own actions.

Actions dictated by the Nation of Islam of which he was a puppet.

(4) Muhammad Ali defeated every challenger he faced in the ring. But on April 28, 1967, he was stripped of his boxing title and barred from competing for being a conscientious objector to the war in Vietnam on religious and moral grounds. However, following a unanimous United States Supreme Court decision in 1971, Muhammad Ali’s conscientious objector status was confirmed, his boxing license was reinstated, and he was cleared of any wrong doing.


http://www.thomas.gov/home/gpoxmlc111/h2648_ih.xml


GRANBERRY LOSES ANOTHER ARGUMENT.

[raylawpc]

Ali's years were taken away from by him his own actions.

Actions dictated by the Nation of Islam of which he was a puppet.

(4) Muhammad Ali defeated every challenger he faced in the ring. But on April 28, 1967, he was stripped of his boxing title and barred from competing for being a conscientious objector to the war in Vietnam on religious and moral grounds. However, following a unanimous United States Supreme Court decision in 1971, Muhammad Ali’s conscientious objector status was confirmed, his boxing license was reinstated, and he was cleared of any wrong doing.


http://www.thomas.gov/home/gpoxmlc111/h2648_ih.xml


GRANBERRY LOSES ANOTHER ARGUMENT.

Technically speaking, the resolution is incorrect. It is incorrect to say "Ali’s conscientious objector status was confirmed . . . and he was cleared of any wrong doing." The Supreme Court reversed because the Appeals Board made a procedural error in failing to state the grounds upon which it denied Ali's application for conscientious objector status. Only Justice Douglas would have reversed because Ali met the definition of a "conscientious objector." The Surpeme Court (and, indeed, no court) ever said that Ali meet the definition of a "concientious objector" under existing law.

Here is the fulll text of the Supreme Court's opinion: http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/g ... 3/698.html

[raylawpc]

Best wishes on that, I'm looking out for my pop now. He is healthy but slipping a bit mentally. Parkinson's is real bad stuff, I hope he didn't suffer too long.

Saad, it depends on how you define "suffering." My Dad was diagnosed with Parkinson's about 18 years ago. It got progressively worse. The last two years were bad; the final six months were horrible.

[yancey]

As we all know Joe Frazier was undefeated before fighting Foreman (29-0 with 25kos). After Foreman destroyed him Frazier only fought 7 more times going 3-3-1 (he was stopped in two of these)

Some say Frazier struggled to beat Bugner who he fought in his next fight after losing to Foreman the first time.
Do you think the beating he took from Foreman took something away from Frazier? Do you think the two wins Ali had over Frazier are slightly tarnished or was Frazier still the man he was before the Foreman fight?

The argument can be made and was made at the time that Frazier was never the same fighter after his first fight with Ali because it took so much out of him.

That argument would be entirely correct.

Foreman got a diminished Frazier in Jamaica. (sorry GI, but it is true and not sour grapes on my part)

Frazier summoned himself for a great effort in Manila, but he was never the same after the FOTC.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Diminished? Yes, he was.

Washed-up, shot, done-for, etc, as some here have posited, is what I call sour-grapes.

Joe Frazier in Kingston = Realtively near-prime. End of story from this corner.

[yancey]

Diminished? Yes, he was.

Washed-up, shot, done-for, etc, as some here have posited, is what I call sour-grapes.

Joe Frazier in Kingston = Realtively near-prime. End of story from this corner.

I have never claimed Frazier was a shot fighter in the first Foreman fight. "Shot" to me means absolutely done.

He was, of course, an absolutely shot fighter in the second Foreman fight. So much so that I've watch that fight once and never care to see it again. Frazier should have quit after the FOTC and absolutely should have quit after Manila.

Good to see that you acknowledge Frazier was a diminished fighter in Jamaica. He was never the same after the FOTC.

For a fighter like Joe, losing 10-15% was much more consequential than a great talent like Ali losing the same.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I didn't accuse you of saying anything. I agree with pretty much everything you said in the above post.

Only thing we'd quibble on is how much Frazier had lost by Kingston. Everything else in your post is bang-on, as far as I'm concerned.

[BoxBuzz]

yancey, just curious, was Frazier winding down after the FOTC because of that fight? Or simply because his career and style had asked so much of him on an accumulative level? In your opinion was he past his prime or AT his prime at the time of that fight? (Either way I think we all have to agree that this was his best performance no?)

[ThatOne]

Frazier was 27 for the FOTC, 29 for his showdown with Big George, and 30 and 31 for his rematch and rubber match with Ali.

[yancey]

yancey, just curious, was Frazier winding down after the FOTC because of that fight? Or simply because his career and style had asked so much of him on an accumulative level? In your opinion was he past his prime or AT his prime at the time of that fight? (Either way I think we all have to agree that this was his best performance no?)

BoxBuzz,

I was a pretty serious observer of boxing back in that era and my honest opinion is that Frazier was slightly off his best for the FOTC. There were some health issues for Frazier prior to that fight and I really think that he was at his absolute peak sometime prior to the FOTC. Granted, this is a pretty fine line, but as pointed out by others a swarmer like Frazier is going to have a short time at the top. I thought Frazier had a bit more quickness and bobbing-weaving movement around '69-'70.

As far as the FOTC goes, yes, Frazier fought great but I think a fact that is under appreciated is that Ali fought a hell of a fight that night just to survive. Not only surviving as it turned out, but inflicting some real damage on Joe. I honestly think Ali gave a great performance that night, one of his very best. He faced a relentless foe who forced him to fight for 3 minutes a round and handled it well, imo.

Going into the FOTC, my gut intuition was that Frazier would take Ali out sometime after the 10th. I was a little surprised (and disappointed) that Ali went the distance with Frazier that night. The decision was undeniably correct for Joe that night, but I was expecting a more emphatic victory for Frazier. Frazier had a couple of moments in the FOTC where one good followup punch would have really put Ali in serious jeopardy but it didn't happen. I'm thinking mainly the 11th with Ali cornered, clearly hurt and hands down. A left hook on the button right there and Ali would have been in real trouble. Dunphy saw the same thing. Instead, Frazier held up a bit, thinking Ali was going to fall, a habit Joe had. Frazier had another great opportunity after the knockdown in the 15th, but was probably too exhausted at that point to finish Ali.

As far as why Frazier was clearly beginning the downslide after the FOTC, there could be several reasons. Yes, his style meant that he had taken considerable punishment in earlier fights, but I tend to think the FOTC was the physical culprit, combined with those ongoing health issues. Ali took something out of Joe that night.

Frazier accomplished his career goal by beating Ali and that mental edge a less physically gifted fighter like him would need was lost as he explored a possible music career and other ventures. Boxing became less a joy for Frazier after he beat Ali and more of a business. That is why I've said it was probably time for him to lose the title when he met Foreman.

[yancey]

Frazier was 27 for the FOTC, 29 for his showdown with Big George, and 30 and 31 for his rematch and rubber match with Ali.

Those ages don't mean much to me.

3 years in a swarmer's career might equal 6 or more years in a boxer's career.

[BoxBuzz]

For Ali, those years away did bring some ring rust, it also allowed Ali's body a rest from being beat on. Those years off are a wash IMHO. Seems to me as boxing fans yancey and I both followed those years closely. And we were unimaginably fortunate to live in an era where two of the greatest fighters lived and fought, I was more in the camp of those disappointed that night. A night where my second favorite HW of all time beat my Favorite. But my disappointment was not very serious balanced out by my sincere satisfaction of Joe reaching his goal. We can make the argument that neither were at their absolute best. But maybe that's a good thing, I wouldn't want a fatality on either side. I met Joe at a time where he was very distracted by music (Just post the FOTC) and it was a great pleasure to have music and boxing conversations with this great champion. I can you tell that being in this man's presence was inspiring, talk about a good and decent guy, I couldn't say enough good about how well he treated his band, and the audience.

FACT: Without Joe, Ali's legacy is cut by half. It is his loss to Joe that defined him. While Joe found other interests, Ali became more singularly focused. They were both the better for the presence of the other. I sometimes find it a bit troubling that few seem to truly get the depth of that truth.

Whether Joe was a shot fighter after the Foreman fight is debatable I suppose, but the fact that he focused on more than just boxing after the FOTC is not up for debate, his interest in music was sincere, and when you are operating at that level you really need to keep your life down to one love affair only.

[granberry]

My comments in bold:

I thought Frazier had a bit more quickness and bobbing-weaving movement around '69-'70.

Definitely. He also punched more with two hands.

By the time he fought Ali he was a one-armed fighter.

Frazier had a couple of moments in the FOTC where one good followup punch would have really put Ali in serious jeopardy but it didn't happen. I'm thinking mainly the 11th with Ali cornered, clearly hurt and hands down. A left hook on the button right there and Ali would have been in real trouble. Dunphy saw the same thing. Instead, Frazier held up a bit, thinking Ali was going to fall, a habit Joe had. Frazier had another great opportunity after the knockdown in the 15th, but was probably too exhausted at that point to finish Ali.

A Louis or Dempsey would have finished Ali there. They had two hands.
Frazier, as a one-armed fighter had to wind up again for another left hook.

If he missed that, the opponent had more time to recover.

You didn't get time to recover against Dempsey and Louis at their best.

Frazier accomplished his career goal by beating Ali and that mental edge a less physically gifted fighter like him would need was lost as he explored a possible music career and other ventures. Boxing became less a joy for Frazier after he beat Ali and more of a business. That is why I've said it was probably time for him to lose the title when he met Foreman.

The best examples of a fighter who went downhill because of extra-curicular money-making would be Jim Corbett, and then Terry McGovern.

Corbett and his manager made hundreds of thousands during the year after he beat Sullivan with 3 times a day stage appearances. The stage lights destroyed Corbett's eyesight to the point where he was never as good again.

McGovern was unbeatable as a teenage killer. After he got married, went on the stage, where he was successful, he was not the same fighter and lost his title.

[BoxBuzz]

My comments in bold:

I thought Frazier had a bit more quickness and bobbing-weaving movement around '69-'70.

Definitely. He also punched more with two hands.

By the time he fought Ali he was a one-armed fighter.

Frazier had a couple of moments in the FOTC where one good followup punch would have really put Ali in serious jeopardy but it didn't happen. I'm thinking mainly the 11th with Ali cornered, clearly hurt and hands down. A left hook on the button right there and Ali would have been in real trouble. Dunphy saw the same thing. Instead, Frazier held up a bit, thinking Ali was going to fall, a habit Joe had. Frazier had another great opportunity after the knockdown in the 15th, but was probably too exhausted at that point to finish Ali.

A Louis or Dempsey would have finished Ali there. They had two hands.
Frazier, as a one-armed fighter had to wind up again for another left hook.

If he missed that, the opponent had more time to recover.

You didn't get time to recover against Dempsey and Louis at their best.

Frazier accomplished his career goal by beating Ali and that mental edge a less physically gifted fighter like him would need was lost as he explored a possible music career and other ventures. Boxing became less a joy for Frazier after he beat Ali and more of a business. That is why I've said it was probably time for him to lose the title when he met Foreman.

The best examples of a fighter who went downhill because of extra-curicular money-making would be Jim Corbett, and then Terry McGovern.

Corbett and his manager made hundreds of thousands during the year after he beat Sullivan with 3 times a day stage appearances. The stage lights destroyed Corbett's eyesight to the point where he was never as good again.

McGovern was unbeatable as a teenage killer. After he got married, went on the stage, where he was successful, he was not the same fighter and lost his title.

Stage lights would not affect anyone's eyesight in the way you imagine. Staring at the sun might, but not stage lights. Have to call you on that one. Though his eyesight may well have been failing, just not due to that.

[elmersalsa]

The last two Frazier-Ali fights are only "epic battles"

in the minds of the Thomas Hauserites.

In reality they were mediocre heavyweight fights.

The 2nd --a sorry exhibition if there ever was one--was where stooge 'referee' Tony Perez gave Ali over 100 'warnings' for pulling Frazier's head down, without ever taking a single point away from Ali.

The 3rd was a fight between two shot fighters:

Frazier llooked like Archie Moore in his old age, with his legs locked at the knee so he could hardly move

and Ali couln't get out of the way of Frazier's left hook.

The first Ali-Frazier fight was the defining fight of Ali's career.

The two got into the ring as undefeated fighters.

Ali left the ring as a beaten fighter.

The walking army of Hauserites try to direct attention away from that by claiming the later two fights were significant--which they definitely were not.

I AGREE 100% with you granberry. Welcome back my friend