James Toney vs Griffin and McCallum

[masterorder19]

First off..wut the f**k happened in the Giffin fights how did Toney lose twice to this guy..By scorecards the first fight was close and the second looked like an easy win for Griffin..I just don't understand how Griffin could compete with Toney..This shows how ordinary Toney can be..

Second can i have any input of the McCallum fights..From what i have heard McCallum should've won both fights but i haven't seen either..

[BoxBuzz]

Theory.....for Toney Shills.....Toney was in a Funk?

[dempseyfire]

Toney deserved the win in both of the Griffith fights.

[RyanPatrick]

I've only seen clips of the first Toney-Griffin fight, I seem to recall Toney had Griffin's legs doing the Zab Judah dance for a bit.

As to their 2nd fight, I only watched it once but I thought Toney got hosed. Griffin was throwing a bunch of those awkward arm punches that he does so well, but it seemed like Toney was doing the more effective work.

Now Toney-McCallum, I think you need to find yourself a copy of their first 2 fights ASAP. Very underrated scraps between a couple of hall of famers.

They really were close fights, I have no problem with the draw in the first fight, but I thought McCallum did enough to win the rematch.

Their 3rd fight is really not worth the bother, unless you want to see what turned out to be McCallum's final fight. It was fought at Cruiserweight, which Toney can carry well but on McCallum the extra weight just slowed him down that much more.

Toney won the 3rd fight fairly easily, I thought. But looking at the scorecards, he only won it 7 rounds to 5 on 2 of the cards.

[dempseyfire]

I haven't seen Toney-McCallum II in years, I think their first fight really could've gone either way.

One thing I'd add in regards to the Griffin fights is that Toney fought both of them in that frustratingly lazy way he often fought, not extending himself and getting enough solid shots in to win rounds. He clearly outboxed and outlanded Griffin, but Griffin I suppose stole rounds by throwing some flurries which in effect did nothing b/c Toney blocked or slipped all of the shots. Pretty much all of Toney's cruiser-fights were the same way except the Jirov fight; fairly boring affairs. Toney had the ability to cross that line into being a truly great fighter but missed the boat by lack-lusterness and lack of conditioning.

[Ambling Alp]

Both of the Griffin-Toney fights were close and were difficult to score. There were several rounds in each fight that could be scored either way. I really thought Griffin win the first by a close margin; the second is more debatable.

In retropsect, it shouldn't be so surprising that the fights were so competitive. Griffin was a good fighter, who was slightly underrated. Don't forget he was outfighting a lackluster Roy Jones in the first fight (though the judges weren't going to give him the decision) before the disqualification.

Toney has been overrated by many people. Even at his best (which wasn't often the case) its debateable that he was a truly great fighter.
Against Griffin, Toney was not at his best.

[I Feel Fine]

I haven't seen either of the Toney-Griffin fights. I thought the draw in the first McCallum fight was fair, but if I had to pick I would say McCallum one. I thought McCallum definitely won the second fight.

Toney also got a break against Tiberi. Toney got as many breaks at Middleweight as Jermain Taylor.

[Evander]

The first Toney v McCallum fight was close, but if pushed to pick a winner I would have chosen McCallum.
It was a very good bout.

[Ezzard]

I thought Toney was/is a great fighter but one who was inconsistent and unfocused in some fights. I was living in Japan when he fought Jones and I hadn't seen him fight since he beat Nunn. I was staggered when I saw him enter the ring. He was not the same physical specimen who had ripped the title away from Nunn.

Toney was his own worst enemy.

[Evander]

The first Toney-McCallum fight was very nip and tuck with Mike using his jab well and moving to off-set Toney's counters. A few time, though, Toney exploded shots on the chin of Mike and had him looking tired and a little hurt in the final round.

Spot on.
Even though I thought McCallum may have edged it Toney had a very good 12th.
I think even back then James Toney had weight problems.

[walshb]

Toney IMO deserved the nod V Mike and in the second bout, Mike deserved the nod. Two great fights. Mike did more in bout 1, but Toney's shots were the harder and more effective....

[bjermaine]

Both of the Griffin-Toney fights were close and were difficult to score. There were several rounds in each fight that could be scored either way. I really thought Griffin win the first by a close margin; the second is more debatable.

In retropsect, it shouldn't be so surprising that the fights were so competitive. Griffin was a good fighter, who was slightly underrated. Don't forget he was outfighting a lackluster Roy Jones in the first fight (though the judges weren't going to give him the decision) before the disqualification.

Toney has been overrated by many people. Even at his best (which wasn't often the case) its debateable that he was a truly great fighter.
Against Griffin, Toney was not at his best.

griffin was a top fighter for a while. griffin was actually up on the judges cards (barely) when roy got dq'ed. roy had 2 knockdowns in the fight if you count the one right before the end. james toney is an all time great. even a fat toney got jobbed imo in the first sam peter fight. the guy was a former middleweight champ and was in there against a big power punching monster and should have won.

[BoxBuzz]

I'm a Toney fan, but I'm convinced he would go to work in a funk at times. So I wasn't kidding when I mentioned it. I don't think James thinks he's ever been beaten.

Roy is the only man to truly have done the job IMHO. Today I think JT would beat RJJ.

[I Feel Fine]

You don't think Tiberi beat him? Rahman? Toney got a win and a draw, but I thought those fights were clear losses. Peter II couldn't have been any clearer, though Toney could have arguably won the first match. I metioned that I thought McCallum should have won their second fight, did you have Toney winning?

I think its clear that Jones wasn't the only guy to beat him, whether or not Griffin deserved the decisions (I would like to see those fights, the second fight is on youtube I'll have to check it out one day). Didn't he have another loss too in those years between Jones and Jirov, besides the losses to Griffin, did anyone see that fight?

[BoxBuzz]

You don't think Tiberi beat him? Rahman? Toney got a win and a draw, but I thought those fights were clear losses. Peter II couldn't have been any clearer, though Toney could have arguably won the first match. I metioned that I thought McCallum should have won their second fight, did you have Toney winning?

I think its clear that Jones wasn't the only guy to beat him, whether or not Griffin deserved the decisions (I would like to see those fights, the second fight is on youtube I'll have to check it out one day). Didn't he have another loss too in those years between Jones and Jirov, besides the losses to Griffin, did anyone see that fight?

Sorry for not being clear here. RJJ left no room for doubt. The others were close fights. The second Peter fight was a loss but my point is more that Toney was outscored but never really took a beating. With RJJ being the exception.

[dempseyfire]

Jusr rewatched Toney-McCallum I. Tough fight to score. I actually thought the outcome was completly fair as I scored it 6-6 a draw. Toney came off to an early lead with Mike coming through big in the middle rounds and leading after 11, but Toney winning the 12th big to secure the draw.

Been rewatching some Toney fights at 160 recently. The guy wad definitely badly drained at that weight, his fatigue after throwing flurries was incredible. I'm surprised he didn't pass out in the Tiberi fight, he was completly drained by the third round.

Definitely should've started out at 168 and then moved to 175, which I think is his most natural fighting weight.

[Seamus]

Toney deserved the L at Cruiserweight vs Terry McGroom as well.

[jrc26]

Toney deserved the L at Cruiserweight vs Terry McGroom as well.

Agreed. He is an extremely tough fighter to score in many of his fights. If the judge likes volume of punches rather than quality countering and defence then James is going to struggle with any judge. He gave away so many rounds in his career where if he would have thrown literally 5-10 more punches he would have won. It is just tough to score for a guy when he only lands 15-20 punches in a round no matter how beautiful it is to watch.

In fairness I think James has been hosed a couple of times and been on the receiving end of a few gifts as well. I don't know if it is even, but it is close.

[Ambling Alp]

Which fights did Toney get hosed? Not saying that he wasn't, I just don't recall them.

[klompton]

I thought Toney won both Griffin fights but Toney was definately a guy who had was inconsistent at all phases and weights of his career. He should have lost to Tiberi, should have lost to Reggie Johnson (IMO), was losing pretty handily to Nunn, drew with McCallum in a razor thin decision (which I have no problem with), lost to Jones (in an all time terrible no-show of a performance), lost to Griffin twice (like I said I had him winning), lost to Thadzi, on my card he would have lost to Jirov without the final knockdown, should have lost to Rahman in their first fight, and should have lost to Oquendo. Id love to know what fights some think he got the shaft on besides the Griffin fights. I though he deserved the two peter losses, and will even admit that the griffin fights come down more to what style you favor than anything.