Bubis Heavyweight Ranking February 2005

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 02 Mar 2005, 11:08

As I said, he couldn't make weight. You've got to remember that Toney played American football in college and weighed in excess of 200 lbs back when he a teenager.

He killed himself to make SM, and as he's got older he's gotten bigger.

You can see that Toney isn't unfit, look at his fight at Cruiser against Jirov, he fought a good pace the entire fight.

However, at heavyweight, he's added too much muscle mass, despite looking flabby, most of it is muscle from weight training, and that's what is causing the injuries.

His best weight would surely be around 190-195.

BubiScholz · Post by **BubiScholz** » 02 Mar 2005, 11:14

jamesmcdonnell wrote:As I said, he couldn't make weight. You've got to remember that Toney played American football in college and weighed in excess of 200 lbs back when he a teenager.

He killed himself to make SM, and as he's got older he's gotten bigger.

You can see that Toney isn't unfit, look at his fight at Cruiser against Jirov, he fought a good pace the entire fight.

However, at heavyweight, he's added too much muscle mass, despite looking flabby, most of it is muscle from weight training, and that's what is causing the injuries.

His best weight would surely be around 190-195.

he is looking for the big money he never earned. he won´t do it in heavy. i even doubt he steps in the same ring with the Wrestler.

d1mak · Post by **d1mak** » 02 Mar 2005, 11:14

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Agree with all of that except Toney. His only flaw is size and injury. Skills wise he doesn't have any. He has a great chin, great defence, superior offensive skills and is an all around great fighter, but the guess is that he is just too small for the best in the division. Byrd would probably beat him too on speed. Good fight that though.

But this is the a big flaw. He is tends to be injured, because his body can't handle so much "muscles". I would say he got best skills in HW, but almost everybody there are natural born HW's and it isn't one of those "mythical matchups" like Toney vs DLH or KTszyu.
So we don't how how JT is going to hold against them.
I would make him favorite against Brewster only, just because Brewster haven't won a single fight against worthy opponent except win of WK, which says more about WK than Brewster.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 02 Mar 2005, 11:21

Toney v DLH?!!!

Err at what weight exactly?

BubiScholz · Post by **BubiScholz** » 02 Mar 2005, 11:28

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Toney v DLH?!!!

Err at what weight exactly?

K-1 freestyle

d1mak · Post by **d1mak** » 02 Mar 2005, 11:28

jamesmcdonnell wrote:As I said, he couldn't make weight. You've got to remember that Toney played American football in college and weighed in excess of 200 lbs back when he a teenager.

He killed himself to make SM, and as he's got older he's gotten bigger.

You can see that Toney isn't unfit, look at his fight at Cruiser against Jirov, he fought a good pace the entire fight.

However, at heavyweight, he's added too much muscle mass, despite looking flabby, most of it is muscle from weight training, and that's what is causing the injuries.

His best weight would surely be around 190-195.

He is definitly not unfit, but 190-195 isn't enough weght to fight in heavy.
VK, Ruiz, Byrd, Golota, Barrett, Rahman are not 4 round fighter and know how to pace themselves, plus they hit the way Toney was never hit.

He is the man of incredible talant (as big as his fu.. mouth)but sometimes it's just not enough to be a champ. Again with a big help of fortune (but since he isn't with Don King, it'll never going to happen) he could be a titleholder, but he would never be a ?(dominian, dominant)? force in HW and would loose this title in the next fight

BubiScholz · Post by **BubiScholz** » 02 Mar 2005, 11:38

d1mak wrote:
jamesmcdonnell wrote:As I said, he couldn't make weight. You've got to remember that Toney played American football in college and weighed in excess of 200 lbs back when he a teenager.

He killed himself to make SM, and as he's got older he's gotten bigger.

You can see that Toney isn't unfit, look at his fight at Cruiser against Jirov, he fought a good pace the entire fight.

However, at heavyweight, he's added too much muscle mass, despite looking flabby, most of it is muscle from weight training, and that's what is causing the injuries.

His best weight would surely be around 190-195.
He is definitly not unfit, but 190-195 isn't enough weght to fight in heavy.
VK, Ruiz, Byrd, Golota, Barrett, Rahman are not 4 round fighter and know how to pace themselves, plus they hit the way Toney was never hit.

He is the man of incredible talant (as big as his fu.. mouth)but sometimes it's just not enough to be a champ. Again with a big help of fortune (but since he isn't with Don King, it'll never going to happen) he could be a titleholder, but he would never be a ?(dominian, dominant)? force in HW and would loose this title in the next fight

Toney is just no heavy. he needs just the money he doesn´t earn in cruiser.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 02 Mar 2005, 11:39

It's unfortunate for Toney that there's never really been any interest in the cruiserweight division. He would have been a killer there for a number of years if he'd been fired up enough, I don't think anyone could have beaten him except for maybe Johnny Nelson, who was probably slick enough to stick and move his way to a win.

I think Toney is good enough on a given night to be able to beat a titleholder, and I give him a good shot at Ruiz, so long as the referee actually stops Ruiz mauling the whole fight. I think Toney's body punching is enough to hurt Ruiz, after all, Jones (not as hard a puncher as Toney at the higher weights), was able to stun Ruiz briefly with a hook.

If Toney beats Ruiz he won't hold a title for long, and if he fights Byrd he will probably lose as he's not good at chasing people down these days and Byrd has a good enough chin to survive any scares.

BubiScholz · Post by **BubiScholz** » 02 Mar 2005, 11:49

i just looked at his record. the difference between his lowest and highest weight is 70 pounds!!!!! that´s not healthy.

BTW he held the IBF middle belt 7 times, the IBF super middle belt 4 times and the IBF cruiser belt once. sorry James but he won´t go into history as one of the most succesful fighters. you overrate him a litle bit, James.

d1mak · Post by **d1mak** » 02 Mar 2005, 11:50

jamesmcdonnell wrote:It's unfortunate for Toney that there's never really been any interest in the cruiserweight division. He would have been a killer there for a number of years if he'd been fired up enough, I don't think anyone could have beaten him except for maybe Johnny Nelson, who was probably slick enough to stick and move his way to a win.

I think Toney is good enough on a given night to be able to beat a titleholder, and I give him a good shot at Ruiz, so long as the referee actually stops Ruiz mauling the whole fight. I think Toney's body punching is enough to hurt Ruiz, after all, Jones (not as hard a puncher as Toney at the higher weights), was able to stun Ruiz briefly with a hook.

If Toney beats Ruiz he won't hold a title for long, and if he fights Byrd he will probably lose as he's not good at chasing people down these days and Byrd has a good enough chin to survive any scares.

Well you can't take hugging away from Ruiz, it his tactic and it works(either you like it or not). It's like taking a bicycle away from DLH, or telling Hopkins that he has to stop running and let other people hit him.
Ruiz is THE threat in the HW and legitimate titleholder and would bet on him to win the fight versus Toney just because he is more proven in the HW than Toney

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 02 Mar 2005, 11:52

Where exactly did I saw he would go down as one of the most successful fighters ever?

I never said he would go down in history as one of the most successful ever. Seeing as he eat away half his career that's hardly surprising.

However, Toney along with Hopkins, is probably the best all around fighter still active, he has skills that few fighters use these days.

BubiScholz · Post by **BubiScholz** » 02 Mar 2005, 11:57

d1mak wrote:
jamesmcdonnell wrote:It's unfortunate for Toney that there's never really been any interest in the cruiserweight division. He would have been a killer there for a number of years if he'd been fired up enough, I don't think anyone could have beaten him except for maybe Johnny Nelson, who was probably slick enough to stick and move his way to a win.

I think Toney is good enough on a given night to be able to beat a titleholder, and I give him a good shot at Ruiz, so long as the referee actually stops Ruiz mauling the whole fight. I think Toney's body punching is enough to hurt Ruiz, after all, Jones (not as hard a puncher as Toney at the higher weights), was able to stun Ruiz briefly with a hook.

If Toney beats Ruiz he won't hold a title for long, and if he fights Byrd he will probably lose as he's not good at chasing people down these days and Byrd has a good enough chin to survive any scares.
Well you can't take hugging away from Ruiz, it his tactic and it works(either you like it or not). It's like taking a bicycle away from DLH, or telling Hopkins that he has to stop running and let other people hit him.
Ruiz is THE threat in the HW and legitimate titleholder and would bet on him to win the fight versus Toney just because he is more proven in the HW than Toney

I think Ruiz would wrestle Toney out. he would run out of gas or get knocked by the Wrestler. The Wrestler will only find his master in Valuev.

BubiScholz · Post by **BubiScholz** » 02 Mar 2005, 11:59

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Where exactly did I saw he would go down as one of the most successful fighters ever?

I never said he would go down in history as one of the most successful ever. Seeing as he eat away half his career that's hardly surprising.

However, Toney along with Hopkins, is probably the best all around fighter still active, he has skills that few fighters use these days.

you just rate him too high IMO. but that´s your opinion.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 02 Mar 2005, 12:07

fornicate me you've got a nerve . You rate a fat blob of shit like Sam as if he's the next coming of Sonny Liston, and yet I overrate Toney for saying he has excellent all around skills?

I really do wonder just how many fights you've seen aside from your lovers in the Sauerland stable. My guess is that you just watch European boxing and are convinced from that that they must be the best, because if you cannot see that Toney has superlative defensive skills, then I'm afraid you really cannot know a lot about boxing.

J · Post by J » 02 Mar 2005, 12:11

jamesmcdonnell wrote:fornicate me you've got a nerve . You rate a fat blob of shit like Sam as if he's the next coming of Sonny Liston, and yet I overrate Toney for saying he has excellent all around skills?

I really do wonder just how many fights you've seen aside from your lovers in the Sauerland stable. My guess is that you just watch European boxing and are convinced from that that they must be the best, because if you cannot see that Toney has superlative defensive skills, then I'm afraid you really cannot know a lot about boxing.

fornicate going to hatton in June im just gona give you two some 6 oz gloves and watch you go at it in my lounge (thats box not anything lude)

BubiScholz · Post by **BubiScholz** » 02 Mar 2005, 12:12

J wrote:
jamesmcdonnell wrote:fornicate me you've got a nerve . You rate a fat blob of shit like Sam as if he's the next coming of Sonny Liston, and yet I overrate Toney for saying he has excellent all around skills?

I really do wonder just how many fights you've seen aside from your lovers in the Sauerland stable. My guess is that you just watch European boxing and are convinced from that that they must be the best, because if you cannot see that Toney has superlative defensive skills, then I'm afraid you really cannot know a lot about boxing.
fornicate going to hatton in June im just gona give you two some 6 oz gloves and watch you go at it in my lounge (thats box not anything lude)

we just like us that much

BubiScholz · Post by **BubiScholz** » 02 Mar 2005, 12:16

jamesmcdonnell wrote:fornicate me you've got a nerve . You rate a fat blob of shit like Sam as if he's the next coming of Sonny Liston, and yet I overrate Toney for saying he has excellent all around skills?

I really do wonder just how many fights you've seen aside from your lovers in the Sauerland stable. My guess is that you just watch European boxing and are convinced from that that they must be the best, because if you cannot see that Toney has superlative defensive skills, then I'm afraid you really cannot know a lot about boxing.

i am just talking about heavy. For me Sam is the better Heavy boxer. Toney might have better skils but he will get killed in heavy when the first real and good heavy boxes him. Toney made some good fights in lower classes but that doesn´t make him a good heavyweight or a contender in heavy. he has of course a good name in the scene. that´s the reason why he is good ranked.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 02 Mar 2005, 12:30

Again, I never said that Toney was going to be the main man at heavym, merely that he has the skills to be competitive. Despite the size issue, his skills are good enough I think for him to make a better fight against Vitali than say, Sanders or Williams. I think Vitali will get hit against Toney, and that he might even get backed up momentarily, even though I see him winning.

You know Bubi, these protracted arguments would be much shorter if you actually listened to what I said. Just a suggestion. First you imply I said Toney would be rated as one of the all time greats, which I didn't (bet he makes hall of fame though), then you say I'm claiming he's a great heavyweight, which I'm not.

BubiScholz · Post by **BubiScholz** » 02 Mar 2005, 12:41

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Again, I never said that Toney was going to be the main man at heavym, merely that he has the skills to be competitive. Despite the size issue, his skills are good enough I think for him to make a better fight against Vitali than say, Sanders or Williams. I think Vitali will get hit against Toney, and that he might even get backed up momentarily, even though I see him winning.

You know Bubi, these protracted arguments would be much shorter if you actually listened to what I said. Just a suggestion. First you imply I said Toney would be rated as one of the all time greats, which I didn't (bet he makes hall of fame though), then you say I'm claiming he's a great heavyweight, which I'm not.

you never pretended he is an alltime great. i just rate Sam or Valuev higher. Toney has to prove in heavy. if he had i will rate him higher.

barry · Post by **barry** » 02 Mar 2005, 12:52

How about Valuev and Sam proving themselves! Just curious Bubi, who do you think is the greatest middleweight of all-time?

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 02 Mar 2005, 12:55

Probably Hugo Corro, or perhaps Felix Sturm?

BubiScholz · Post by **BubiScholz** » 02 Mar 2005, 13:07

James Toney