Comparing Pac and Duran careers

[big train express]

Pacquiao and Duran on an equal basis? first let me say that duran is levels above pacquiao. pacquiao's opponents like morales, barrera and marquez while hall of famers are also not on the same levels of duran's opponents. too many people make a big deal about pacquiao beating those three but pacquiao fought neither one of them when they were young and on their way up. all three were older and on their way down when he fought them. especially morales, morales was only about 70% of what he was in his prime when he beat pacquiao. what would a 100% prime morales do to pacquiao? and we know marquez beat pacquiao both times and he was much older than pacquiao. the first barrera fight was the only great win for pacquiao against this three.

and let's not even think today's welterweights can even compare to the welter's duran fought. you say "but pacquiao" started at 106? well, so what, duran started at 119 and fought all the way up to 174 and still beat his opponent at 46 years old. and every one of duran's opponents at welterweight and above was much younger than the 5'7" duran. in his prime, duran beat hall of famers, carlos palomino, pipino cuevas, sugar ray leonard and lost to close narrow decision to middleweight marvin hagler. he also lost to the great wilfred benitez and thomas hearns who were much superior to any welterweights of today with the exception of mosley and mayweather jr. which pacquiao has managed to duck.

sure, what pacquiao has done is great, he started out at 106 and has fought as heavy as 145? that's 39 Lbs.. on the other hand, duran started out at 119 and fought as heavy as 174...that's 57 Lbs. and beat his opponent at 46 years old. the heaviest duran fought in his career (while losing) was at 176 and lost to a 20-1 argentine fighter by close decision at 48 yo. oh, and guess what, duran never cherrypicked his opposition like pacquiao has. he never rematched fighters he beat before. he had a trilogy with esteban dejesus to settle their close deadlock. he rematched leonard to settle their deadlock. he never had a rematch with someone he easily beat like pacquiao ha with morales.

i know we are living in the moment but come on, either most of you are too ignorant to realize the superiority of duran or are too drunk with the pacquiao kool-aid.

you really got something against the man dont you? no one said they were on equal basis as you assumed. to compare fighters is not saying they are equal, rather comparing the similarities of their careers.

i agree pac had his fair share of cherry picks like diaz, but to say he cherry picked his whole career is ludicrous. i hope you dont consider fighting top 5 welterweights such as cotto and clottey cherry picking. also, while morales was on a bit of a slide their first fight, he was still damn good. he was coming off a split decision loss to MAB who pacquiao dominated. yes his fights with JMM were controversial, but those fights are far from decisive. it could have gone either way, but the difference is in both fights JMM went down. those fights are as controversial as ken norton vs muhammad ali. many people thought norton beat ali twice, but its never brought up when discussing alis resume because regardless of the close decisions, he took the W's and had a great career.

Barrera, morales, JMM, ODLH(weight drained and way past prime), hatton, cotto, clottey

you may argue hatton and cotto werent the same fighters, but they werent far from it. they were still dangerous, live opponents. its not easy going up and defeating fighters like hatton and cotto especially since he fought below 130 most his career.

[big train express]

btw please dont reply with "pactardo" or "nuthugger" or whatever. what he has accomplished is amazing and many boxing experts agree.

[milmascaras1]

big train express,

i will agree with you 100% that what pacquiao has done is amazing but he is not the only fighter this decade to accomplish amazing things. and why do you keep saying i hate pacquiao? just because i despise his "pactardo" fans does not mean i hate the guy. the guy is a very decent, humble and down to earth human being. one would be crazy to "hate" him. i do admire him if you can believe that but what i dislike about him are his overly enthusiastic fans who think he's the best thing since swiss cheese. listen, he has accomplished alot and good for him but to put him in the same category as roberto duran is really ludicrous and nuthuggery at it's finest. his opponents come no where near the opponents duran faced. are you willing to suggest that a prime pacquiao would have beaten a prime duran? if you do then i will understand considering how much pacquiao kool-aid is being drunk at this site. truth be told, today's welters are but a fraction talent wise of what duran had to face and i don't you or anybody else can dispute that.

[dberry]

To me Pacquiao is better than swiss cheese.......I'm lactose intolerant

[milmascaras1]

well that just proves my theory that because of the mass media, internet, etc...pacquiao has become this kind of cult figure who has tens of millions of mostly young boxing fans doing cartwheels everytime he fights.

[big train express]

big train express,

i will agree with you 100% that what pacquiao has done is amazing but he is not the only fighter this decade to accomplish amazing things. and why do you keep saying i hate pacquiao? just because i despise his "pactardo" fans does not mean i hate the guy. the guy is a very decent, humble and down to earth human being. one would be crazy to "hate" him. i do admire him if you can believe that but what i dislike about him are his overly enthusiastic fans who think he's the best thing since swiss cheese. listen, he has accomplished alot and good for him but to put him in the same category as roberto duran is really ludicrous and nuthuggery at it's finest. his opponents come no where near the opponents duran faced. are you willing to suggest that a prime pacquiao would have beaten a prime duran? if you do then i will understand considering how much pacquiao kool-aid is being drunk at this site. truth be told, today's welters are but a fraction talent wise of what duran had to face and i don't you or anybody else can dispute that.

bro i agree with you about the crazy fans, but this forum does not really have those blind, balls in your face type of fans. this forum has the most knowledgeable and less biased posters in all sites ive posted on.

and no way are we implying that a prime pac would beat duran. imo it would be entertaining while it lasts, but duran would definitely come through with a decisive W. the TS is simply comparing their accomplishments. what pac has accomplished is amazing but its not touching what duran has done. pac will never fight leonard, hagler, hearns caliber fighters, but what he can do is fight the top guys in the division. that and moving up in weights give us the right to compare their careers.

with that said if he doesnt get the winner of mosley/mayweather and goes on to fight margarito. . .

[milmascaras1]

big train express,

you make great sense bro. well done!

[elmersalsa]

Pacquiao and Duran on an equal basis? first let me say that duran is levels above pacquiao. pacquiao's opponents like morales, barrera and marquez while hall of famers are also not on the same levels of duran's opponents. too many people make a big deal about pacquiao beating those three but pacquiao fought neither one of them when they were young and on their way up. all three were older and on their way down when he fought them. especially morales, morales was only about 70% of what he was in his prime when he beat pacquiao. what would a 100% prime morales do to pacquiao? and we know marquez beat pacquiao both times and he was much older than pacquiao. the first barrera fight was the only great win for pacquiao against this three.

and let's not even think today's welterweights can even compare to the welter's duran fought. you say "but pacquiao" started at 106? well, so what, duran started at 119 and fought all the way up to 174 and still beat his opponent at 46 years old. and every one of duran's opponents at welterweight and above was much younger than the 5'7" duran. in his prime, duran beat hall of famers, carlos palomino, pipino cuevas, sugar ray leonard and lost to close narrow decision to middleweight marvin hagler. he also lost to the great wilfred benitez and thomas hearns who were much superior to any welterweights of today with the exception of mosley and mayweather jr. which pacquiao has managed to duck.

sure, what pacquiao has done is great, he started out at 106 and has fought as heavy as 145? that's 39 Lbs.. on the other hand, duran started out at 119 and fought as heavy as 174...that's 57 Lbs. and beat his opponent at 46 years old. the heaviest duran fought in his career (while losing) was at 176 and lost to a 20-1 argentine fighter by close decision at 48 yo. oh, and guess what, duran never cherrypicked his opposition like pacquiao has. he never rematched fighters he beat before. he had a trilogy with esteban dejesus to settle their close deadlock. he rematched leonard to settle their deadlock. he never had a rematch with someone he easily beat like pacquiao ha with morales.

i know we are living in the moment but come on, either most of you are too ignorant to realize the superiority of duran or are too drunk with the pacquiao kool-aid.

GREAT POINTS...And also, Duran NEVER fought a former champion who was out his prime either. Almost all Duran's opponents were either in their primes, and younger and bigger than he.

Duran lost to Benitez and Hearns at 154lbs. A weight class that Duran was not even accostumed nor was neither dominant, nor was in his prime. I would have wish those fights would have been at least at welterweight and in Duran's prime. Would have been a different story? Probably yes, probably not.

[hitman09]

Hearns beats Duran any weight, any time. Much too big.

[hurlock]

pacquio & duran are from the same pod :!: although i dont think durans natural tenacity can be matched by any man,fighter,tiger even DD
had duran trained & approached his training like manny this thread would be pointless, but fighters haveto be rated on achievments etc. & you have to rate manny above even though my fav of all time is duran.

[Diamond WEAPON]

Clottey absolutely WAS a cherry pick, period. The guy had already lost to Margarito, barely beat Judah, and lost to the same guy (Cotto) that Pacquiao had just beaten. Arum totally fed both Cotto and Clottery to Pacquiao just like he did Diaz. With Cotto of course there was more risk involved but Arum knew he could get a loss to Miguel excused by way of size, even though truthfully Pacquiao probably wasn't outweighed by any more than 5 lbs. And Cotto has been seen as vulnerable by all who watched him post-Margarito.

Honestly, there's just too much damn cherry-picking in Pacquiao's career post-Morales I for me to put him near Duran yet. If he happened to beat Floyd though he'd definitely get close because he's definitely no cherry-pick. I also don't like much of the weight comparisons and such. Pacquiao has always been a major weight drainer until he got to De La Hoya, while Floyd has never been a huge drainer. The two are practically the same weight at their optimal fighting shape so there should be ZERO excuses if either man loses.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Clottey absolutely WAS a cherry pick, period. The guy had already lost to Margarito, barely beat Judah, and lost to the same guy (Cotto) that Pacquiao had just beaten. Arum totally fed both Cotto and Clottery to Pacquiao just like he did Diaz. With Cotto of course there was more risk involved but Arum knew he could get a loss to Miguel excused by way of size, even though truthfully Pacquiao probably wasn't outweighed by any more than 5 lbs. And Cotto has been seen as vulnerable by all who watched him post-Margarito.

Honestly, there's just too much damn cherry-picking in Pacquiao's career post-Morales I for me to put him near Duran yet. If he happened to beat Floyd though he'd definitely get close because he's definitely no cherry-pick. I also don't like much of the weight comparisons and such. Pacquiao has always been a major weight drainer until he got to De La Hoya, while Floyd has never been a huge drainer. The two are practically the same weight at their optimal fighting shape so there should be ZERO excuses if either man loses.

I can sort of see what you're saying with Clottey --- it was probably well set-up --- but I don't agree, ultimately. Clottey is a very tough test for any Welter out there, & Pacquiao continues to plow through opposition at 147. How quickly we've become accustomed to what was only recently thought of as completely impossible.

For beating Clottey, & for doing so as convincingly as he did, I give Pacquiao points.

[dempseyfire]

Clottey absolutely WAS a cherry pick, period. The guy had already lost to Margarito, barely beat Judah, and lost to the same guy (Cotto) that Pacquiao had just beaten. Arum totally fed both Cotto and Clottery to Pacquiao just like he did Diaz. With Cotto of course there was more risk involved but Arum knew he could get a loss to Miguel excused by way of size, even though truthfully Pacquiao probably wasn't outweighed by any more than 5 lbs. And Cotto has been seen as vulnerable by all who watched him post-Margarito.

Honestly, there's just too much damn cherry-picking in Pacquiao's career post-Morales I for me to put him near Duran yet. If he happened to beat Floyd though he'd definitely get close because he's definitely no cherry-pick. I also don't like much of the weight comparisons and such. Pacquiao has always been a major weight drainer until he got to De La Hoya, while Floyd has never been a huge drainer. The two are practically the same weight at their optimal fighting shape so there should be ZERO excuses if either man loses.

Ridiculous. Many at ringside had him drawing with Marg (and this was Antonio with the plaster), he beat Cotto with his foot on the gas in the last round or not and was robbed, he beat Judah up. He hadn't been cleanly beaten his entire career, his clearest loss being a 7-5 decision to Margarito on the top of his game and who knows what in his gloves.

Clottey is extremely dangerous for ANY welterweight out there, including Floyd.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

LOL, Clottey was a solid win. But that build up is madness. Nobody who can score thought the margarito fight was a draw, the Cotto fight certainly could have went either way & he edged Judah.

I didn't criticize Josh as a fairly short notice opponent, but I knew he had zero chance of being competitive. Same goes for Cotto. Cherry picking is as extreme as your defense. But Pac hasn't had any of his better career moments since moving up from 30. No matter how astounded people may be.

Edit: Actually the Hatton destruction was awesome.

[milmascaras1]

just goes to show the sad state of the welterweight division with the exception of mayweather jr. and mosley, who by the way, pacquiao has continued to avoid like the plague. roberto duran had much, much tougher competition than the cherrypicking pacquiao. if duran were in his prime today, he would dominate all the welters including mosley, mayweather jr. and pacquiao. in fact, the welterweight of duran's era, wilfred benitez, thomas hearns and sugar ray leonard would have beaten every welterweight alive today. even pipino cuevas and carlos palomino would have beaten every welterweight with the exceptions of floyd jr. and mosley.

[Goodnight, Irene]

just goes to show the sad state of the welterweight division with the exception of mayweather jr. and mosley, who by the way, pacquiao has continued to avoid like the plague. roberto duran had much, much tougher competition than the cherrypicking pacquiao. if duran were in his prime today, he would dominate all the welters including mosley, mayweather jr. and pacquiao. in fact, the welterweight of duran's era, wilfred benitez, thomas hearns and sugar ray leonard would have beaten every welterweight alive today. even pipino cuevas and carlos palomino would have beaten every welterweight with the exceptions of floyd jr. and mosley.

Oh, this again?

Now I remember why I put you on Ignore.

[milmascaras1]

little irenie,

what's the matter little boy, can't take that your ladyboy pacquiao can never measure up to duran's success? and yeah, go ahead and ignore me panochudo!

[Diamond WEAPON]

Mayweather would outbox Clottey like he did Baldomir, Clottey is way too slow and spurty. And yes, Clottey was beaten clearly by Baldomir himself, Carlos was rocking him in that fight and Clottey fouled his way to a DQ instead of risking being stopped.

[dempseyfire]

Mayweather would outbox Clottey like he did Baldomir, Clottey is way too slow and spurty. And yes, Clottey was beaten clearly by Baldomir himself, Carlos was rocking him in that fight and Clottey fouled his way to a DQ instead of risking being stopped.

Why then was Clottey ahead on the cards?

I'm not saying Clottey is some overlooked great but he's a level above Baldomir and was a clear top 5 Welter.

[Ezzard]

Clottey absolutely WAS a cherry pick, period. The guy had already lost to Margarito, barely beat Judah, and lost to the same guy (Cotto) that Pacquiao had just beaten. Arum totally fed both Cotto and Clottery to Pacquiao just like he did Diaz. With Cotto of course there was more risk involved but Arum knew he could get a loss to Miguel excused by way of size, even though truthfully Pacquiao probably wasn't outweighed by any more than 5 lbs. And Cotto has been seen as vulnerable by all who watched him post-Margarito.

Honestly, there's just too much damn cherry-picking in Pacquiao's career post-Morales I for me to put him near Duran yet. If he happened to beat Floyd though he'd definitely get close because he's definitely no cherry-pick. I also don't like much of the weight comparisons and such. Pacquiao has always been a major weight drainer until he got to De La Hoya, while Floyd has never been a huge drainer. The two are practically the same weight at their optimal fighting shape so there should be ZERO excuses if either man loses.

There's soemthing to what you say but I don't agree with the last line at all. Floyd is so obviously a bigger man with all of the natural advantages.

The Moseley fight will be far easier in the ring for Floyd than it looks on paper. I think Mayweather-Pac happens this year with a late stoppage or points win for Floyd.

[Idisagree]

Mayweather would outbox Clottey like he did Baldomir, Clottey is way too slow and spurty. And yes, Clottey was beaten clearly by Baldomir himself, Carlos was rocking him in that fight and Clottey fouled his way to a DQ instead of risking being stopped.

Why then was Clottey ahead on the cards?

I'm not saying Clottey is some overlooked great but he's a level above Baldomir and was a clear top 5 Welter.

I agree 100% with dempsey here. To be honest I'm not sure if Diamond saw that fight, because the fight I saw Clottey was beating the shit out Baldomir. Clottey has the tendency sometimes to lead with his head and this fight was not the exception, but despite all of that Clottey was completely out-boxing Baldomir.

Clottey absolutely WAS a cherry pick, period. The guy had already lost to Margarito, barely beat Judah, and lost to the same guy (Cotto) that Pacquiao had just beaten. Arum totally fed both Cotto and Clottery to Pacquiao just like he did Diaz. With Cotto of course there was more risk involved but Arum knew he could get a loss to Miguel excused by way of size, even though truthfully Pacquiao probably wasn't outweighed by any more than 5 lbs. And Cotto has been seen as vulnerable by all who watched him post-Margarito.

Honestly, there's just too much damn cherry-picking in Pacquiao's career post-Morales I for me to put him near Duran yet. If he happened to beat Floyd though he'd definitely get close because he's definitely no cherry-pick. I also don't like much of the weight comparisons and such. Pacquiao has always been a major weight drainer until he got to De La Hoya, while Floyd has never been a huge drainer. The two are practically the same weight at their optimal fighting shape so there should be ZERO excuses if either man loses.

As for Pac sherry picking that is completely BS. He fought all of the best fighters out there. I'm sure Pac haters would've been saying that Pac was ducking Clottey if he did not fight him. Now because he fought him and dominated him in such a fashion he is sherry picking. That is completely BS. Clottey was beating the cheater Margarito and if it wasn't because he hurts his hand on the fight he would've defeated Margarito. He beat Judah quite convincingly, and many people saw him winning aginst Cotto. I gave the fight to Cotto based on the knock-down, 6 rounds a piece and the knock-down making the difference. The fight was that close in my opinion. Clottey is no push over and he can fight, and to say otherwise is nonsense.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Margarito was the one with injuries in that fight. Clottey bruised his knuckles and whined that he broke his hands. Amazing how much steam that nonsense has gotten over the years.

He was slamming those broken mitts off of Corrales dome a few months later.

[Idisagree]

Margarito was the one with injuries in that fight. Clottey bruised his knuckles and whined that he broke his hands. Amazing how much steam that nonsense has gotten over the years.

He was slamming those broken mitts off of Corrales dome a few months later.

From: http://www.eastsideboxing.com/boxing-ne ... lottey.php

In the opening bout on the telecast, Tijuana, Mexico’s Margarito predicted a war in his bout with the tough and game African challenger. Clottey, of Bronx, N.Y., via Accra, Ghana, was 10-0 with one no-contest in his last 11 fights, and he showed why early on. Ripping short left hooks and jabs with tremendous hand speed, Clottey won the second, third and fourth rounds on two of three scorecards. In the third, he stunned Margarito with a right hand to the head and repeatedly landed four- and five-punch combinations.

But Margarito, traditionally a slow starter, took control in the fifth round. With Clottey covering up and hardly throwing any punches, Margarito began to punish Clottey with a barrage of powerful punches to the body and the head.

After the fourth, Clottey came to his corner complaining of pain in his left hand. From that point, his work rate slowed and he absorbed tremendous punishment for the remainder of the match.
“I hurt my hand in training about two weeks ago,” said Clottey after the bout. “But I wanted to take the fight because I am a warrior. I felt it hurting with my jab. I have a very strong jab. I didn’t want to quit. That is not my style. But once I broke my hand, I could not fight anymore.”

“He showed true grit and heart against a murderous puncher in this fight,” said SHOWTIME analyst Al Bernstein of Clottey, who drops to 30-2, 1 NC, 20 KOs. “It would be right for this young man to get another world title shot in the near future.”

From: http://www.BS.com/?m=show&id=15290

Clottey lost a unanimous decision to Margarito in 2006. He was easily outboxing Margarito to win the early rounds before suffering a hand injury at which point Margarito took over the contest and threw a record number of punches over the twelve-round contest.


From: http://hubpages.com/hub/Antonio-Margari ... ster-wraps

See Clottey was actually winning this fight up to around the 5th round when he complained that his hand was injured and I think the decision could have went either way as Clottey still made a valiant effort. But it was obvious that even though he kept throwing with the injured hand it wasn't as often or with the same bad intentions as in the early rounds. Margarito went on to win the fight by decision but Clottey was not hurt or damaged in any form as some of Margarito's other opponents.

But I point to the fact that Margarito was still throwing lots of punches but Clottey was taking most of the punches on the gloves and arms. And considering that when Margarito blocked punches if his wraps were hard Clottey was hitting the hardened wraps with full force. Which is why I think Clottey was not beat up in the face but suffered damage to his hands. It just makes since to me if Clottey didn't fight the style he does he would have probably been pummeled or TKO'd in this fight.

From: http://www.eastsideboxing.com/news.php?p=16855&more=1

Clottey vs. Margarito II is The Right Fight For Boxing; Miller on Kings Hall Bill

By Mike Cassell -The Philadelphia Boxing Report - It wasn’t long ago that welterweight Antonio Margarito 37 – 5 (27 KO’s) was the most dodged boxer in the game. Well, he is going to have to move over, because the dodged will be doing some pretty nifty foot work of his own. With all the big money out there for the heir apparent to the Mayweather dynasty, Joshua “HITTER” Clottey 35 -2 (20 KO’s) will have to get in line and do all the things Margarito had to do to get his day in the sun. Although it was close for a while, and it ended because of an accidental head butt, it was only a matter of time before Ghanaian fighter Joshua Clottey would have knocked out Zab Judah..

Clottey is a stalking brawler who will fracture his knuckles, trying to break his opponent down, without ever thinking twice. That very thing happened back in 2006 when he faced Antonio Margarito in Atlantic City New Jersey. Although the Cotto knockout of Quintana got all the press, the fight between Margarito and Clottey was a spectacular battle. Clottey gave Margarito all he could eat, out punching Margarito for the first half of the fight.

A fractured right knuckle slowed Clottey down just enough to allow Margarito to win a 12 round decision. This was before Margarito lost to Paul Williams and he had that air of invincibility around him. He was the guy that no one wanted to fight. He was the underground welterweight that Floyd Mayweather and Oscar De La Hoya were dodging, and it would be a cold day before he was holding all the cards. Well it must be snowing in Tijuana, because Margarito is shuffling a full deck, and the big names are making their way to the table. After beating Miguel Cotto into submission, he has further increased his reputation as the baddest man on the planet. Most will agree, but if you ask Joshua Clottey, he will just smile, and wait his turn. You see, Clottey knows Margarito very well. And while future opponents are being thrown about, Clottey’s name is mysteriously missing from the short list, and the long list. The IBF welterweight champion of the world isn’t even a consideration right now, and that’s not good for the welterweight division and it certainly isn’t good for boxing.




I know the media should not be taken as gospel. However, I have to take it as more reliable than just your opinion. It was reported in more than one website that Clottey did hurt his hand during the fight. To me that is consistent with what I saw on that fight. For instance, Clottey was beating Margarito to the punch quite often and was totally dominating Margarito during the first rounds of the fight. Then after he started complaining about pain in his hand his work rate did drop considerably. Why will he stop fighting in fight that he was clearly dominating? To me either the fight was fixed or he did hurt his hands. I’ll go for the second choice.

I’ll give you that it looks highly suspicious that four months later he was beating Corrales without any problems.

[hitman09]

3 years ago, if I was told Pacquiao would go up to 147 and beat DLH, Hatton, Cotto and Clottey I'd have said you were out of your fvcking mind. If I had then been told he would be accused of cherry picking opposition afterwards, I'd have been seriously worried about your mental health.

[big train express]

i guess fighting two fighters in the top 5 welterweights and the number 1 jr welterweight is cherry picking especially for a fighter whos been fighting under 135 the majority of his career. he got completely outboxed by marquez in the first fight. if he was a cherry picker, do you think he would have taken that fight knowing that marquez outboxed him previously in their first fight?

and i dont get why people say he ducked raheem. he lost to MORALES and wanted vengeance. he didnt lose to raheem.