Rear heel down vs rear heel up.

[Robinson]

I have noticed that there are two distinct camps when it comes
to how you should have your rear heel when in fighting stance.
I have also noticed that some fighters have it up while others,
the majority, have it down.

What fighters from either camp have you noticed this to be
the case with
and what are your general thoughts on how it should be taught.

These observations have been raised by a guru that lurks at
this forum that I have the pleasure of chatting with. I have
really started to notice it over the past year or so.

In SA I have noticed that a few local boxing gyms advocate the
heels up method, whereas I have also come across some that think
this is quite daft.

Thanks again lads..

Notable Rear Heel Up fighters are.

Jerry Quarry.
Doug Jones
Floyd Patterson (noticable in earlier fights check the Henry cooper bout)
I believe I noticed Eddie Machen with his heel up in some fights.


Those are some examples I could think of at this time.

[Robinson]

Johnny Famechon and Ambrose Palmer trained fighters seemed to have
the heel up as well I have noticed. I think this may be why some Aussie
coaches advocate this method, because alot of them draw from the
Palmer method of fighting.

In his book 'Boxing' Edwin L Haislet advocates the heel up method as well.
"The right heel should be inverted and raised two inches from the floor."

Though in their instructional books, Floyd Patterson and Henry Cooper have
a flat right heel to drive off.

Only having the rear heel raised when throwing the right cross, or uppercut.




NOw for MMA< the flat foot at the rear is much better for setting up take downs,
take down defence etc. Though in Muay Thai-Kickboxing they generally advocate
the right heel up also. Not that this has anything to do with the boxing topic of
'proper' way. But it can illustrate other disciplines approaches.

[dberry]

Good question Robinson.

I have always been taught heel up, and have fallen into the heel down mode when I have been overweight and unfit. I believe the heel up method allows better foot work and more rotational movement of the body, heel down does have the advantage of allowing one to 'sit back' on the punch and really drive it from a planted position but I'm not convinced this delivers any significant power advantage.

I think heel down can lead to bad habits such as bad foot placement. It also reflects on the trainer and I reckon indicates too much bag work and not enough pads and drills. Porky Lovett fights flat footed and has to plant himself before he can throw and struggles with any one that moves a lot.

I used to train with a kickboxing trainer many years ago that used to make me sticky tape a drawing pin, pointy side to skin, to my heel before shadow sparing and pad work

[Robinson]

Though scores of accomplished fighters fight with the heel down.
Toney, Mayweather, Delahoya, Holmes, Archie Moore, etc etc

It seems that there are more actual fighters who have the heel
down than up in the prize ring.

I know a lot of lads that have been taught heel up. though I tend
to prefer heel down. I do do alot of sparring-bag work and seldom
if at all any pad work.

[Counter-puncher]

Good question Robinson.

I have always been taught heel up, and have fallen into the heel down mode when I have been overweight and unfit. I believe the heel up method allows better foot work and more rotational movement of the body, heel down does have the advantage of allowing one to 'sit back' on the punch and really drive it from a planted position but I'm not convinced this delivers any significant power advantage.

I think heel down can lead to bad habits such as bad foot placement. It also reflects on the trainer and I reckon indicates too much bag work and not enough pads and drills. Porky Lovett fights flat footed and has to plant himself before he can throw and struggles with any one that moves a lot.

I used to train with a kickboxing trainer many years ago that used to make me sticky tape a drawing pin, pointy side to skin, to my heel before shadow sparing and pad work

good points especially the middle one. i'll notice my heel going down but it only happens when I'm tired or out of shape.

[raylawpc]

I was taught heel up.

[dempseyfire]

I think it depends on styles and whether you are the aggressor or not. There's no "one" correct way . . .if you are coming in and about to explode with combinations, the heel up will better suit your quickness at getting in and out. If you are standing back and counterpunching, heel down will be fine as well.

I always prefered heel up b/c I always wanted to change angles as my legs and quickness were my strong suits.

[Panzerfaust]

I was taught and believe heel up to be better ,but its all personal preference i guess.

[dberry]

Jorge Castro during the Paul Briggs fight fought heel down, I agree that there is no right way, and some trainers actually teach that method of foot work. As my grandfather used to say, "there's more than one way to skin a cat".

[Robinson]

Very true Dberry.
However I have come across some good trainers that advocate both.
But I have found upon observing when sparring-fighting that the
majority of good fighters at a top level are heel down. Always exceptions
etc. But for the most part you see them heel down when the shots are
being thrown for keeps.

[BoxBuzz]

sort of surprise gran hasn't offered up his thoughts on this one.

[kikibalt]

Heel should be up, half inch to an inch...

[Collins2000]

Heel up for me, but I'll wait unti Francis rocks up and gives the definitive answer.

[dberry]

Very true Dberry.
However I have come across some good trainers that advocate both.
But I have found upon observing when sparring-fighting that the
majority of good fighters at a top level are heel down. Always exceptions
etc. But for the most part you see them heel down when the shots are
being thrown for keeps.

Interesting point Robinson, sometimes, in the middle of trading or when I have my opponent backed up onto the ropes or am on the ropes myself, I'll plant my heal and even widen my stance a bit, it's good to get a good grip on the real estate when things get a bit rough and tumble. But I find it much easier to move around and spear out strait rights with my heal up and feet pointing forward. That's just me and I guess you've got to adapt to what ever is taught and what ever works for you.

I think the old heel down, back foot behind and at 90 degrees to the front defiantly limits mobility and for some one like yourself who has to let kicks go as well it would definitely limit your legs.

[allworld80]

I'm fairly certain Winky Wright is a heel down guy too.

[Robinson]

I think when you watch MOST guys fight they are heel down sorts.
For most their mobility and 'power' fighting. Even when you watch
them shadow box. YET alot of people teach and are taught heel
up.

I find it interesting.

I prefer heel down. BUt I dont box and my sport has a lot of other
variables to it. BUT when I spar in boxing and shadow box I have
my heel down for most the time. And have had conversations with
others on this. THOUGH... it seems I am the only one here that
advocates the heel down as such, atleast in the thread.

[Robinson]

Freddie Roach seems to be a Heel Down sort in this video, though
the lass he is working with has hers up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3yQ2oUx3Sw

[Panzerfaust]

SRR and Ezzard Charles had the heel up

[dberry]

Freddie Roach seems to be a Heel Down sort in this video, though
the lass he is working with has hers up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3yQ2oUx3Sw

Interesting footage thanks Robo (what can Icall you for short?), when Freddie roach is stagnant, he's clearly comfortable with his back heel planted. He points out foot placement and addresses one of the problematic bad habits that seams to come from 'heel down' all the time, although he doesn't say in so many words.

Notice that when he is dancing about how fleet footed he is and where his back heel is and where his rear toes are pointing.

Great thread mate, by the way.

[Robinson]

Dberry

Feel free to call me Kym. Its a nice and short name ;)

I find one can stay mobile with the heel down. But Roach
does slighlty raise it when mobile. However most people who
are heel up, are also heel up when they are stationary as
well.

PF,
I have noticed Ezzard Charles to be up and down with his
heels depending on the fight.

[dberry]

I think the thing here Kym, is to be open to both ways, to do this, I've found, one must constantly be aware of what the rear foot is doing. How do find launching roundhouse kicks of the rear leg from the heel down position? I've seen the pics. you've posted and your round house body kick looks text book.

[Robinson]

For MMA, to set up the kick, to shoot or to sprawl
you would be wisest to have the heel down position.
This gives you more stability and balance and strength
especially in take down defence.
This is where a lot of strikers fail in take down defence because
they are up right and on their toes.

I think it is interesting in watching boxers during the fights,
and see how their heels are as opposed to how people
are often taught. I find it is more stable to have the
heel down, but i dont box.

[skelp]

In Dan Inosanto's book "The Three and One Inch Punch" as taught by Bruce Lee, he states that it is best for large guys to keep the heel on the ground to maximise the punch impact, and small guys to lift the heel for better leverage to increase the power.

[Robinson]

I think in observing great fighters their are most that have
the heel raised slightly, and then they keep it flat for a
good part of the fight...no doubt for power, stability and
because it is less fatiguing.

Then you have those that have the heel raised quite a bit
say for example Jerry Quarry.

And others that have it nearly always flat (except when throwing
a right cross or when actually moving).

Thanks again for all the feed back gents.

[dberry]

Good thread Kym. Great to discuss technique and learn from other peoples knowledge as well as questioning, therefore understanding, my own.