gime me your 3 weakest IBHOF'ers...

[slakka]

billy soose is very weak

[Ambling Alp]

Soose should not be in the Hall of Fame, but there are worse. At least he beat Ken Overlin twice and Tony Zale.

I can't believe some of the guys who have been mentioned. Ken Norton, Victor Galindez, Flash Elorde? They are more deserving than at least 50 guys who are in.

My three are:

George Godfrey
Jess Willard
Sixto Escobar

The case for Daniel Zaragoza is almost as weak.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Soose should not be in the Hall of Fame, but there are worse. At least he beat Ken Overlin twice and Tony Zale.

I can't believe some of the guys who have been mentioned. Ken Norton, Victor Galindez, Flash Elorde? They are more deserving than at least 50 guys who are in.

My three are:

George Godfrey
Jess Willard
Sixto Escobar

The case for Daniel Zaragoza is almost as weak.

I agree with most of your post, but Escobar is harsh, brojam.

[Senya13]

He wasn't knocked out by saddler it was stopped on cuts after Sandy put on one of the dirtiest displays of fouling you would ever want to see. The ref should have been brought up on criminal charges.

What was so dirty or criminal about it? The cut was created by a punch. Infighting can be dirty, but there's nothing criminal about it, it wasn't of Holyfield's caliber. Did Saddler really rub his glove against the cut in one of the rounds, when they were in a clinch? Nobody can tell.

[slakka]

[quote="Ambling Alp"]Soose should not be in the Hall of Fame, but there are worse. At least he beat Ken Overlin twice and Tony Zale.

The 2 Billy got vs Overlin were gifts!

[SaadOffTheDeck]

He wasn't knocked out by saddler it was stopped on cuts after Sandy put on one of the dirtiest displays of fouling you would ever want to see. The ref should have been brought up on criminal charges.

What was so dirty or criminal about it? The cut was created by a punch. Infighting can be dirty, but there's nothing criminal about it, it wasn't of Holyfield's caliber. Did Saddler really rub his glove against the cut in one of the rounds, when they were in a clinch? Nobody can tell.

The whole fight was dirty, even by Sandy's standards.

[Ambling Alp]

Soose should not be in the Hall of Fame, but there are worse. At least he beat Ken Overlin twice and Tony Zale.

I can't believe some of the guys who have been mentioned. Ken Norton, Victor Galindez, Flash Elorde? They are more deserving than at least 50 guys who are in.

My three are:

George Godfrey
Jess Willard
Sixto Escobar

The case for Daniel Zaragoza is almost as weak.

I agree with most of your post, but Escobar is harsh, brojam.

What case could you make for him?

[Idisagree]

He wasn't knocked out by saddler it was stopped on cuts after Sandy put on one of the dirtiest displays of fouling you would ever want to see. The ref should have been brought up on criminal charges.

What was so dirty or criminal about it? The cut was created by a punch. Infighting can be dirty, but there's nothing criminal about it, it wasn't of Holyfield's caliber. Did Saddler really rub his glove against the cut in one of the rounds, when they were in a clinch? Nobody can tell.

I think he meant on the dirty tactics used throughout the fight. Saddler was a master at that and this fight was not the exception.

[Senya13]

I can only guess he has seen a lot of Saddler's fights (far more than have been preserved on video) or has read a lot of reports to be able to claim this bout stood out, in regards to dirty fighting.
The thing is, as I already said, the cut was made by a legal punch (right hook I recall). The referee didn't deduct any points from Saddler either. You see a lot of cuts from headbutts, does that mean they are even more criminal and dirty?

[Idisagree]

Soose should not be in the Hall of Fame, but there are worse. At least he beat Ken Overlin twice and Tony Zale.

I can't believe some of the guys who have been mentioned. Ken Norton, Victor Galindez, Flash Elorde? They are more deserving than at least 50 guys who are in.

My three are:

George Godfrey
Jess Willard
Sixto Escobar

The case for Daniel Zaragoza is almost as weak.

I agree with most of your post, but Escobar is harsh, brojam.

What case could you make for him?

Escobar made it into the IBHOF for being the first Puerto Rican to win a championship. He became an instant hero to the Puerto Rican’s and a celebrity. I think he got in more based on the impact that he made on the island rather than skills. Based on that he got in, but in my opinion he was just too inconsistent to deserve induction. However, let’s not forget that he open the door for fighters like Ortiz, Gomez, Benitez, and many others great fighter that come from that little island. That is the only case you can make for him. There are others that have a weak resume and zero impact on the sport.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I can only guess he has seen a lot of Saddler's fights (far more than have been preserved on video) or has read a lot of reports to be able to claim this bout stood out, in regards to dirty fighting.
The thing is, as I already said, the cut was made by a legal punch (right hook I recall). The referee didn't deduct any points from Saddler either. You see a lot of cuts from headbutts, does that mean they are even more criminal and dirty?

If you're saying that saddler was always dirty and this didn't seem any different to you. I'd have to agree that he was one of the dirtier fighters to ever lace them up. He also fought in a time when rough stuff was more common. I have probably seen less Saddler footage than you have. Reading is still a fine way of learning about older fighters. That was my main issue with Mil, saying that Elorde got the shit beat out of him and knocked out shows that you couldn't even read a caption under the result here.

I'm not alone in saying this. I have only watched the Youtube of the fight myself, but I've read several newspaper accounts as well. Are you asking me to list the fouls that occurred? That would take hours. But I'll pull up some newspaper accounts and post them for you.

[jimglen]

Hall of Fame inductees could be simplified and recognised for the worthy recipients that most of them are, IF only catagorized correctly...

Acheivements = greatest NOT BEST!

BEST = SKILL, longeviety, acheivements, competition and general consensious among boxing people - fellow fighters, reporters, scribes and historians.

Feared & Avoided fighters = KNOWN ducking, longevity-years at the top, Skill and known general consensious among boxing people - fellow fighters, reporters, scribes and historians.

Best of a nation = self explanatory in-tow with above criteria's

Best in divisions = self explanatory in-tow with above criteria's...

such specifics would explain better fighters worth and place and account for what some people might "think" is unaccountable...
this would include a good few more fighters, because in truth THERE ARE LOTS MORE GREATS than people realize, especially from past Top Era's

[Senya13]

I agree that Saddler was pretty dirty (his height, stance and usual manner of fighting combined doing this), just I haven't read about this particular bout standing out regarding dirty fighting. Although I only saw a couple of next-day clippings about it myself.

[Idisagree]

I agree that Saddler was pretty dirty (his height, stance and usual manner of fighting combined doing this), just I haven't read about this particular bout standing out regarding dirty fighting. Although I only saw a couple of next-day clippings about it myself.

Here is some brief article about the fight Saddler vs Elorde:

1. Sandy Saddler TKO13 Flash Elorde -- San Francisco, Jan. 18, 1956

Bettmann/CorbisSandy Saddler used a variety of dirty tactics to stop Flash Elorde, facing, in their rematch.

We touched on this fight in the recent "Filipino five" article. Referee Ray Flores allowed featherweight champion Saddler to get away with numerous fouls in his title defense against Filipino Elorde. These included using his head and glove laces to worsen the terrible cut over Elorde's left eye that eventually caused the fight to be stopped. The New York Times reported: "The champion continually massaged Elorde's face with his head whenever they were in the clinches. He spun Elorde, held him, hit him on the break a couple of times and in general had the pro-Elorde crowd booing all night." Nat Fleischer, editor of "The Ring," wrote a blistering condemnation of Flores' refereeing. If ever a champion deserved to have been DQ'd, it was surely Sandy Saddler on that bloody night in San Francisco.
Graham Houston is the American editor of Boxing Monthly and writes for FightWriter.com

from: http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing ... id=3467958

[raylawpc]

In his early career, one could describe George Foreman as a dirty fighter. Two fouls that immediately come to mind: Pushing down Boone Kirkman, and hitting Jose King Roman while the latter was on the deck. Wait a minute . . . wasn't Sandy Saddler a consultant/trainer for George? Hmmm . . .

[tanibanana]

obviously somebody doesn't know anything about boxing by picking victor galindez and pipino cuevas. cuevas' overall record might not have been the best but while he was welterweight champion, he was one of the most feared punchers in his era. victor galindez was also a great lt. heavyweight who was tough as nails and fought the best. nice try!

you're thinking too much maliciously.. I picked Cuevas & Galindez for I thought they were, and not for anything else.. And I apprciate others comment on enlightening me how good Galindez & Cuevas were. I brought up the topic to further expand my knowledge in the sport of boxing. And you jumped like a starving rabid wolf. Anyways, you did'nt oppose Mcguigan, which means you have two already, McGuigan and Elorde(which I find silly). Now beside the two, who would be the remaining 1, since I was asking for three..

by the way, I started my topic w/ "dont get me wrong, for me they are all GREAT"...

[SaadOffTheDeck]

He's a retard, pay him no mind. cuevas isn't a terrible answer, he just had 10 or so defenses against some solid guys that puts him above guys like Mcguigan or Johansson that had a couple of bigger wins imo. Galindez was a damn good fighter.

Due to my obvious bias I didn't get into the Saad Muhammad response, but I found that to be a terrible answer and his resume is every bit as good as galindez.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Don't sweat Mascara. He's on..."holidays" 8)

[SaadOffTheDeck]

No idea if this will work Senya, I am to computers what Mil is to Boxing.

You may have to print or download them, but here is some stuff on Elorde/Saddler 2

Edit: Didn't work

[SaadOffTheDeck]

And here is the you tube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzlKrmXDGNw

[Senya13]

Google docs links not working for me (although I do have gmail account, but probably it's not enough).
I have the fight (1 hour 3 mins) in my collection, but I don't remember anything about it, was too long ago.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Sorry, I'll email them to you if you want to read them. You can definitely open them that way.

[Senya13]

Nah, no need when I have the video. Probably will watch it again one day.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Cool, all four of them pretty just say the same thing I did.

[Ambling Alp]

A few more that I don't believe anyone has mentioned that really have much of a case:

Edwin Rosario
Charley Mitchell
Laslo Papp