Top 30 Heavyweights: Name Your 22

[The Great John L]

There are tons of heavyweights who if they'd gone to jail at certain pts in their careers they could've reached mythical status too. I'm not very impressed by Ike's performance vs Tua . .he struggled to outbox Tua in a very close fight and basically had to outwork him whereas Rahman, Byrd and Lewis easily outboxed Tua (hell, Oquendo easily outboxed him before getting KTFO) and he caught a green Byrd with a great shot in a fight that was basically even (HBO's bias against Byrd was ridiculous, there is no way Ike was ahead at the time of the stoppage 3-1 . .I had it 2-1-1 Byrd )

Quarry would have toyed with Ike, Lyle and Shavers would have stomped him. Maybe Ike could have become something, but to diss guys like Quarry, Lyle and Shavers by saying Ike beats them is ridiculous.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Actually, it's more modus operandi on most boards than ridiculous. Sadly.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

It really is and perhaps it's just the same sort of mental process that renders fighters useless after one loss and unbeatable after one win. Since Ike never lost, he will forever remain unbeatable.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I never get my answer from these types, though --- just how highly must you rate Tua & Byrd to evaluate Ibeabuchi with the grossly inflated status you nutters for him do?

[SaadOffTheDeck]

All they know are records. I'm a huge Paul Williams fan and pegged him to beat Margarito long before they fought. After the Quintana fight the cries of exposed were loud and strong.

It's the same type of fan that could never understand how a great fighter like Joe Brown could possibly have so many losses and wouldn't consider Ike Williams a puncher because his ko ratio is low.

They just don't understand and they don't care to.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Including Cooper takes it up to about 512.

Bert is good for some singular mythical matchups, but he couldn't be included in a top 64 Heavyweights.

[Ambling Alp]

Maybe we could have an NIT tournament and include Bert. Bert vs Jesse Ferguson would be a dream final.

Not including the original 8 (Muhammad Ali, Joe Louis, Rocky Marciano, George Foreman,
Jack Johnson, Jack Dempsey, Joe Frazier, Mike Tyson)

Here my 24:
Holmes
Holyfield
Lewis
Liston
Jeffries
Tunney
Bowe
Langford
Wills
Jeannettee
McVey
Charles
Walcott
Patterson
Norton
Fitzsimmons
Corbett
Schmeling
Baer
Sharkey

The above were easy to pick. Then it gets hard.
I'm going with:

Ellis
Quarry
Johannson
Sullivan

[Ezzard]

Ike was obviously a very good HW but I do agree with the sentiment on stats with certain fans.

[Ezzard]

Sullivan
Corbett
Jackson
Langford
Jeanette
McVey
Wills
Jeffries
Tunney
Sharkey
Schmeling
Baer
Walcott
Charles
Patterson
Liston
Norton
Holmes
Witherspoon
Lewis
Holyfield
Bowe
Vitali
Haye (thrown in for excitement)

Alp, did you consciously excluse Jackson? Or did you just overlook him? Interested to know.

[Ambling Alp]

Jackson was one of the guys that I seriously considered but didn't pick.

[Crease]

PLEASE STOP POSTING YOUR CANDIDATES!!!

Throughout this process I quickly realised that instead of 32 boxers, 64 boxers would have been a better option...
I posted a few boxer sin my first post to inspire some of you to invovle yourself in who would be in your top 32 boxers...

I put the original 8 because they are regualrs in epracically everyones top 10....

tere are boxers that you slected...
(I had no say in the matter, because I put in the top 8)...

Very shortly, I will post a new topic with your 64 boxers elect put into fight groups...

[Crease]

There will be 16 groups of 4 boxers...

The boxers have been randomly assigned numbers...

Could the next poster please put the numbers
1 through to 64

and put 4 random numbers under the letters A through to P

for example:

A 1-2-3-4

(This means the boxers given these numbers will be in group A and will fight each other.

[hitman09]

A 1 17 33 49
B 2 18 34 50
C 3 19 35 51
D 4 20 36 52
E 5 21 37 53
F 6 22 38 54
G 7 23 39 55
H 8 24 40 56
I 9 25 41 57
J 10 26 42 58
K 11 27 43 59
L 12 28 44 60
M 13 29 45 61
N 14 30 46 62
O 15 31 47 63
P 16 32 48 64

[hitman09]

That ok?

[Crease]

Thank you Hitman.

I always knew you were good for something.

[hitman09]

Thank you Hitman.

I always knew you were good for something.

You too, when your talking about something other than football. Leave that to the experts. D

[Mr E]

Hmm. Ike Ibeabuchi was and remains a psycho criminal scumbag, no question, but you guys are kidding yourselves if you don't believe that he had unbelievable potential. He didn't fully develop but I submit that the Ibeabuchi who got thrown into the slammer would have bounced guys like Carnera and Shavers, who are getting some play here, around the ring like basketballs (for as long as they lasted).

The most over-rated nobody of all-time = Ike Ibeabuchi.

You are kidding yourself if you think he was even a fraction as good as his legions will have you believe. Achieved nothing, accomplished nothing. Boxing is literally choked at the gills with similar fighters through history who receive not one jot of attention.

It's been ten years. Let's move on.

I feel like I'm coming into a conversation mid-stream here. To my recollection, I've never discussed Ibeabuchi on a message board before this, so I don't know where the 'let's move on' comment comes from. Anyway, does Ibeabuchi have legions of fans? If so, I haven't met any of them nor am I sure exactly what you imagine 'they' would have me believe other than, I assume, he was a very good fighter with potential, though clearly unrealized, to be a great one.

But I have no ax to grind here. If you or anyone else disagree, it's okay by me. I think you're wrong but if history under-rates Ike Ibeabuchi, it is the very least he deserves.

[Mr E]

"...But to answer you question, I'd make Ibeabuchi a big underdog against Liston, pick 'em v. Quarry, a favorite over Lyle, and a big favorite over Shavers and Carnera." - E

LMAO. & the, "legend" continues. I expect Byrd & Tua must rank in your top ten or fifteen all-time HW's, given Ibeabuchi's status.

Why would you expect that? Complete and utter non-sequitur.

[Mr E]

There are tons of heavyweights who if they'd gone to jail at certain pts in their careers they could've reached mythical status too. I'm not very impressed by Ike's performance vs Tua . .he struggled to outbox Tua in a very close fight and basically had to outwork him whereas Rahman, Byrd and Lewis easily outboxed Tua (hell, Oquendo easily outboxed him before getting KTFO) and he caught a green Byrd with a great shot in a fight that was basically even (HBO's bias against Byrd was ridiculous, there is no way Ike was ahead at the time of the stoppage 3-1 . .I had it 2-1-1 Byrd )

Quarry would have toyed with Ike, Lyle and Shavers would have stomped him. Maybe Ike could have become something, but to diss guys like Quarry, Lyle and Shavers by saying Ike beats them is ridiculous.

Seriously? Fellas, I know we're all big fans of the 60s and 70s here but let's not get carried away. I'm not "dissing" (to use your word) Quarry, Lyle, and Shavers when I say that they were all excellent fighters but none of them was great. Fair to same the same thing about Ibeabuchi, I think. He was as athletic as any of them, just as fast and a lot bigger and stronger. Tua and Byrd were hardly all-time greats either but they weren't the 2nd-raters some of you have accused them of being.

It's always hard to tell when comparing eras but to suggest that Jerry Quarry would have 'toyed' with Ibeabuchi, or that Ron Lyle or especially Earnie Shavers would have 'stomped' him is, to use your word again, "ridiculous."

[Mr E]

I never get my answer from these types, though --- just how highly must you rate Tua & Byrd to evaluate Ibeabuchi with the grossly inflated status you nutters for him do?

Well, you don't really have to evaluate them all that highly if you're compiling a list of fighters based on an imagined who-would-have-beaten-whom scenario, as opposed compiling a list based on "greatness." [Secretariat would have been just as fast if he'd been racing against cows and Sugar Ray Robinson would have been just as fast if he'd been fighting 10-year-olds.]

As I've said, I think Ibeabuchi was a very good fighter with potential, admittedly unrealized, to have become a great one. Who knows if he would have made it but the fighter who was jailed was a big, athletic guy with some real ability. I squeezed him into a top 32 listing earlier in this thread but I was specifically trying to pull guys from every era, so that doesn't mean I'd put him in my top 32 all-time if I ever sat down and put together such a list. Pretty sure he'd be in the top 40 to 50, and that Byrd and Tua would both make the top 100. Byrd maybe makes the top 75...?

Where do you put them?

[Mr E]

Tua/Ike was the most overrated fight ever. I missed it live for whatever reason and then bought the DVD and was shocked at how uneventful it was. Not that it sucked, just not even close to what people make it out to be.

I hated Lennox, but he would have taken Ike to school in a big way.

Wasn't aware that Ibeabuchi-Tua was considered an especially 'great' fight by anyone, though it was a good one. At the time, they were 2 undefeated, seemingly fit and motivated kids with bright futures, so it was a compelling match-up.

I agree that Lewis would have beaten Ibeabuchi handily. I have never accused Ibeabuchi of greatness.

[Bricks]

Razor Ruddock would be in my top 30 even if he was number 30! But no one puts him on the list. Why? At his short peak 1986-early 1992 he beat 4 former world champions in Dokes, Page,Smith and Weaver.

I know people will bring up Dave jaco but razor had an asthma attack in his corner and didnt have an inhaler and nearly died!

Essentially Razor was undefeated for the first 9 years of his career till an absolutely rampaging Tyson (I dont care what anyone says I think what the Tyson of 1991 had slipped in terms of defence and combinations, he made up for with his toughness and will to avoid a loss at that stage)

As for Tyson himself i still think if he had not gone to that beauty contest we would have seen him in with 2 or 3 out of Holyfield,Lewis, Mercer, Bowe and Foreman back when it mattered! And if Tyson had beaten 3 of those he would surely be a top 5 HW no matter what else happened!

[The Great John L]

Seriously? Fellas, I know we're all big fans of the 60s and 70s here but let's not get carried away. I'm not "dissing" (to use your word) Quarry, Lyle, and Shavers when I say that they were all excellent fighters but none of them was great. Fair to same the same thing about Ibeabuchi, I think. He was as athletic as any of them, just as fast and a lot bigger and stronger.

This is boxing, not track and field. We're talking experience and accomplishments, which is what matters in boxing. Watch a prime Quarry, like the Spencer fight and tell me that Ike was as fast as Quarry.

Tua and Byrd were hardly all-time greats either but they weren't the 2nd-raters some of you have accused them of being.

I couldn't agree more. Tua and Byrd were both very good HWs, probably two of the better HWs of the late 90's, behind Lewis. Maybe if Ike had continued beating good HWs he could be mentioned as a guy that would have stood a chance against the names you throw around so cavalierly.

It's always hard to tell when comparing eras but to suggest that Jerry Quarry would have 'toyed' with Ibeabuchi, or that Ron Lyle or especially Earnie Shavers would have 'stomped' him is, to use your word again, "ridiculous."

"Especially" Shavers? I guess KOing Ellis, Young, Bugner, Norton, Smith and Williams, among others, doesn't compare well to Tua and Byrd?

Nobody is saying that Ike may not have developed into a top HW, but a close win over Tua and a stoppage of Byrd doesn't compare favorably to fighting top HWs for a decade, during what was arguably the best HW era, which is exactly what Quarry, Lyle and Shavers did.

Some of us just like to see accomplishments, rather than possibilities.

[Mr E]

I don't know why these kinds of discussions always need to become hostile on this board but c'est la vie. To respond.

This is boxing, not track and field.

Brilliant. Good thing you pointed that out.

We're talking experience and accomplishments, which is what matters in boxing.

Nonsense. We were discussing a hypothetical boxing tournament, in which what matters is who would have beaten whom. Many things "matter in boxing," depending on the context of the discussion.

Watch a prime Quarry, like the Spencer fight and tell me that Ike was as fast as Quarry.

As between Quarry and Ike, I wouldn't want to live on the difference, that's for sure. Quarry was no speed-demon, your evident wide-eyed fan worship notwithstanding. And I do think Ike was probably faster than Lyle and Shavers were.

TI couldn't agree more. Tua and Byrd were both very good HWs, probably two of the better HWs of the late 90's, behind Lewis. Maybe if Ike had continued beating good HWs he could be mentioned as a guy that would have stood a chance against the names you throw around so cavalierly.

I don't know what to say to this except that I don't believe for one minute you would bet a month's mortgage on any of these guys to beat Ike Ibeabuchi if this were more than mere fantasy and somebody gave you the opportunity to put your money where your mouth is.

"Especially" Shavers? I guess KOing Ellis, Young, Bugner, Norton, Smith and Williams, among others, doesn't compare well to Tua and Byrd?

That's an inane comment. He also lost to Ron Stander, Bob Stallings, didn't make it a single round against Quarry, collapsed against Tex Cobb and Bernardo Mercado, etc. Point is, Shavers was a thunderous puncher, with some skill, limited speed and limited durability. And, yes, I'd put a lot of money on Ibeabuchi to hand him his head. Less so with Lyle, who was better than Shavers, but I'd still make Ike the favorite.

Nobody is saying that Ike may not have developed into a top HW, but a close win over Tua and a stoppage of Byrd doesn't compare favorably to fighting top HWs for a decade, during what was arguably the best HW era, which is exactly what Quarry, Lyle and Shavers did. Some of us just like to see accomplishments, rather than possibilities.

The question is not where they rate in terms of historical significance or whatever sort of romantic notion you may have of overall 'worth.' The question is do you really think Earnie Shavers or Ron Lyle could have beaten Ike Ibeabuchi in a fight? For cryin' out loud, he was 235-240 (I forget exactly) in shape and he had some real skills. You would seriously take 210 pound Earnie Shavers, who got knocked out a dozen times in his career, to "stomp" him, as in the fight would be no contest??????

[Goodnight, Irene]

My favourite part was when John L. pointed out experience & accomplishments matter in Boxing, & Mr. E calls that, "Nonsense."