Classic American West Coast Boxing

[Randyman]

I was sorry to hear about both Lorraine Chargin and Arthur Mercante Sr. passing away. my condolences to both family. This past weekend Teddy Atlas really praised Lorraine Chargin. She must have been quite a lady.

Randy

[Randyman]

Paul . . . Max Kellerman is irritating. He should be castrated and sent on his way.

Rick!!.....

Max Kellerman doesn't know anything that he didn't read from a book...

This is true. I recall watching an interview with Philly promoter Russell Peltz, and Peltz talking about Kellerman, with Peltz saying, "Max Kellerman may know from what he read that Harry Greb got a newspaper decision off of a Gene Tunney, but what he doesn't know is that half of those old scribes were on the take." The dog must've eaten that page of the book.

Scartissue

I don't know who bugs me more, Larry Merchant or Max Kellerman.

Randy

[Randyman]

Did anyone catch the Andre Berto fight last night? I don't know about you guys but after watching that I don't see the world beater that the HBO team seems to fawn over. If Quintana had any kind of a punch I think he would have got him out of there. Maybe it was Quintana's southpaw style that befuddled him but I'm not seeing the superstar at all. I think that 1st round "slip" was a knockdown scored by Quintana, I tired of Berto's ceasless whining about rabbit punches when it was obvious he was being struck on the side not the back of the head. I think he throws a lot of "shoeshine" blows complete with audio and I don't think he's that difficult to hit. Moreover, I hate seeing the ref and the announcing team bending over backwards for one fighter, which they apparently did. A feel good story with the Haiti thing and all is one thing, but there is another fighter in there. I think the stoppage was good, but I think Berto is lucky he didn't fight Mosley.

Scartissue

Dan, I agree with you. Berto was clearly hit on the side of the head and knocked down, Kimmons just took his word for it that he was hit on the back of his head. From that moment on Berto complained incessantly about being "rabbit" punched. One of the announcers, I believe it was Jim Lampley stated that Berto was "in part to Blame" because he was turning his head. He was only half right. Berto was 100% to blame for being hit on the back of his head. Later, when Berto also delivered some rabbit punches of his own and Quintana complained, Kimmons completely ignored his complaints. Between not getting his knock down scored correctly, having a point taken away from him later in the fight, and Kimmos constantly on his case, especially when he tried to work inside, Quintana never had a chance. I don't know if Quintana would have won without all the complaining and interference but I have no doubt that it disrupted his game plan.

As for Andre Berto being overrated I agree. Manny Steward tried to be kind Saturday night when he said "maybe in a year he'll be ready" (I'm paraphrasing). I don't think he's quite ready for the best of the welterweights and a year won't make a difference.

Randy

[Randyman]

Early dinner tonight. Stuffed pork chops, roasted new potatoes, fresh organic asparagus, wheat sourdough with roasted Spanish Piquillo peppers in olive oil and balsamic vinegar.

I'm a happy camper tonight.
Randy

[Rick Farris]

Berto was clearly hit on the side of the head and knocked down, Kimmons just took his word for it that he was hit on the back of his head. From that moment on Berto complained incessantly about being "rabbit" punched. One of the announcers, I believe it was Jim Lampley stated that Berto was "in part to Blame" because he was turning his head. He was only half right. Berto was 100% to blame for being hit on the back of his head.
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Randy . . . I agree with you, Berto is 100% responsible for being hit behind the head. This happens when a guy turns his head in the opposite direction, as if to run away. It's fear. Think of the guys you see attempting to box, who don't know how. A fighter's head is set forward, where he can see what he's punching at and to avoid what might be coming his way. I see guys in the gym who always pull their heads back, which of course reveals their chin. It's like they don't want to get their heads close to where it might get hit. I used to love fighting guys who were trained in Karate. They have a way of leaning back, head high, especially when they attempts very common kicks. When you are close enough, a simple dip, feint to the body, and then come over with a hook to the chin. Works 99% of the time. To turn one's head, or to try to keep the head "out of the action" is a sign of a fearful fighter. Berto is strong, probably hits pretty good, and may be the king of third rate fighters, but this Quintana was giving him hell. We are seeing the best of Andre Berto, he is already at his best. From here on the career depends on easy fights, when truly challeneged, he'll wash out. My opinion only.


-Rick Farris

[Randyman]

Berto was clearly hit on the side of the head and knocked down, Kimmons just took his word for it that he was hit on the back of his head. From that moment on Berto complained incessantly about being "rabbit" punched. One of the announcers, I believe it was Jim Lampley stated that Berto was "in part to Blame" because he was turning his head. He was only half right. Berto was 100% to blame for being hit on the back of his head.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Randy . . . I agree with you, Berto is 100% responsible for being hit behind the head. This happens when a guy turns his head in the opposite direction, as if to run away. It's fear. Think of the guys you see attempting to box, who don't know how. A fighter's head is set forward, where he can see what he's punching at and to avoid what might be coming his way. I see guys in the gym who always pull their heads back, which of course reveals their chin. It's like they don't want to get their heads close to where it might get hit. I used to love fighting guys who were trained in Karate. They have a way of leaning back, head high, especially when they attempts very common kicks. When you are close enough, a simple dip, feint to the body, and then come over with a hook to the chin. Works 99% of the time. To turn one's head, or to try to keep the head "out of the action" is a sign of a fearful fighter. Berto is strong, probably hits pretty good, and may be the king of third rate fighters, but this Quintana was giving him hell. We are seeing the best of Andre Berto, he is already at his best. From here on the career depends on easy fights, when truly challeneged, he'll wash out. My opinion only.


-Rick Farris

It's the correct opinion Rick. Berto will do okay against mediocre talent but he better stay away from the top guys.

[Rick Farris]

This is true. I recall watching an interview with Philly promoter Russell Peltz, and Peltz talking about Kellerman, with Peltz saying, "Max Kellerman may know from what he read that Harry Greb got a newspaper decision off of a Gene Tunney, but what he doesn't know is that half of those old scribes were on the take." The dog must've eaten that page of the book.

Scartissue
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Dan . . . 90% of the info you find from IBRO members is based on the crap written by reporters on the take from managers & promoters. They were paid to write propaganda. Even Nat Flesicher wrote whatever was in the best interest of MAdison Square Garden. At least most of what's written here is based on personal experience.


-Rick Farris

[kikibalt]

Rick!!.....

Max Kellerman doesn't know anything that he didn't read from a book...

This is true. I recall watching an interview with Philly promoter Russell Peltz, and Peltz talking about Kellerman, with Peltz saying, "Max Kellerman may know from what he read that Harry Greb got a newspaper decision off of a Gene Tunney, but what he doesn't know is that half of those old scribes were on the take." The dog must've eaten that page of the book.

Scartissue

I don't know who bugs me more, Larry Merchant or Max Kellerman.

Randy

Both equally?....

[Randyman]

This is true. I recall watching an interview with Philly promoter Russell Peltz, and Peltz talking about Kellerman, with Peltz saying, "Max Kellerman may know from what he read that Harry Greb got a newspaper decision off of a Gene Tunney, but what he doesn't know is that half of those old scribes were on the take." The dog must've eaten that page of the book.

Scartissue

I don't know who bugs me more, Larry Merchant or Max Kellerman.

Randy

Both equally?....

I think we are all turning into a bunch of Mel Epsteins.

[Rick Farris]

I think we are all turning into a bunch of Mel Epsteins.
----------------------------------------------------------------

Randy, that thought occured to me.
Just this afternoon, John Bardelli made the same comment. I agreed.
Now out of the blue, you post this!
Mel is alive here.
Bardelli will get a kick out of this Mel Epstein coincidence!

-Rick

[m1kee50]

Berto was clearly hit on the side of the head and knocked down, Kimmons just took his word for it that he was hit on the back of his head. From that moment on Berto complained incessantly about being "rabbit" punched. One of the announcers, I believe it was Jim Lampley stated that Berto was "in part to Blame" because he was turning his head. He was only half right. Berto was 100% to blame for being hit on the back of his head.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Randy . . . I agree with you, Berto is 100% responsible for being hit behind the head. This happens when a guy turns his head in the opposite direction, as if to run away. It's fear. Think of the guys you see attempting to box, who don't know how. A fighter's head is set forward, where he can see what he's punching at and to avoid what might be coming his way. I see guys in the gym who always pull their heads back, which of course reveals their chin. It's like they don't want to get their heads close to where it might get hit. I used to love fighting guys who were trained in Karate. They have a way of leaning back, head high, especially when they attempts very common kicks. When you are close enough, a simple dip, feint to the body, and then come over with a hook to the chin. Works 99% of the time. To turn one's head, or to try to keep the head "out of the action" is a sign of a fearful fighter. Berto is strong, probably hits pretty good, and may be the king of third rate fighters, but this Quintana was giving him hell. We are seeing the best of Andre Berto, he is already at his best. From here on the career depends on easy fights, when truly challeneged, he'll wash out. My opinion only.


-Rick Farris

Ive always gone the Hagakure direction when it comes to having a punch-up... get stuck in, you lose, so what? Better to lose going forward than lose going back.

[Randyman]

Berto was clearly hit on the side of the head and knocked down, Kimmons just took his word for it that he was hit on the back of his head. From that moment on Berto complained incessantly about being "rabbit" punched. One of the announcers, I believe it was Jim Lampley stated that Berto was "in part to Blame" because he was turning his head. He was only half right. Berto was 100% to blame for being hit on the back of his head.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Randy . . . I agree with you, Berto is 100% responsible for being hit behind the head. This happens when a guy turns his head in the opposite direction, as if to run away. It's fear. Think of the guys you see attempting to box, who don't know how. A fighter's head is set forward, where he can see what he's punching at and to avoid what might be coming his way. I see guys in the gym who always pull their heads back, which of course reveals their chin. It's like they don't want to get their heads close to where it might get hit. I used to love fighting guys who were trained in Karate. They have a way of leaning back, head high, especially when they attempts very common kicks. When you are close enough, a simple dip, feint to the body, and then come over with a hook to the chin. Works 99% of the time. To turn one's head, or to try to keep the head "out of the action" is a sign of a fearful fighter. Berto is strong, probably hits pretty good, and may be the king of third rate fighters, but this Quintana was giving him hell. We are seeing the best of Andre Berto, he is already at his best. From here on the career depends on easy fights, when truly challeneged, he'll wash out. My opinion only.


-Rick Farris

Ive always gone the Hagakure direction when it comes to having a punch-up... get stuck in, you lose, so what? Better to lose going forward than lose going back.

Matthew, I wasn't familiar with the word Hagakure, so I looked it up. Wikipedia references it to the Bushido code. I am somewhat familiar with that since I was a martial artist years ago. I also love learning new words so I thank you for that.

I don't disagree with what you say. In fact it is how I live my life. "Win, lose or draw", so to speak. Some of my favorite fighters never won titles and lost some big fights but took their losses like men and moved on. Perhaps they said to themselves "So What". Mando Muniz and Yaqui Lopez are good examples. Others that did win titles, guys like Evander Holyfield, Danny Lopez, Bobby Chacon and Arturo Gotti had the same mindset, which is why we loved them so much. Shane Mosley is another example.

I'm not sure which fighter you are referring to in your comment, Berto or Quintana, both perhaps or maybe you were just generalizing. In this particular case I think your comments fit Quintana to a "t", Berto on the other hand, not so much. I think what turned most of us off was that he appeared to be enlisting "help" from the referee and that he was dishonest in his victory and to me honesty in a fighter is everything.

Thanks for posting on this thread.
Randy

[Expug]

Mention of The Hagakure, Samurai references in our thread. Gotta love it.
We are renneissance men here!
Of course, Im not sure how to spell renneissance.

[Randyman]

I was curious about Hagakure and decided to find out a little more about it. There is a book called Hagakure: The Book of the Samurai, I went to a local used bookstore near my house to see if I could find a copy. They didn't have one but I ordered it and it should be here in about a week, maybe less. Looking forward to reading it.

While I was there I picked up a DVD of "Body and Soul" with John Garfield. I've seen it a lot of times. It's one of the better boxing movies from Hollywood's Golden Era. The movie featured several boxing personalities, most of them uncredited. Themovie still holds up well.

[THEHAMMER321]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKxj3KbSiYk
Same song by Louis jordan

Frank'ol Pal
The songs back in the day were either about love with beautifull lyrics and singers with great voices or happy songs like this one.

Today everyone is pissed off

You're right, Rog, now days its all about gangster rap...what poop!!....

Frank there was these two guys on death row,so the warden asks the first guy do you have any wants or wishes before you are put to death,yes he replies I want to listen to rap, then the warden asks the second guy if he has any want's or wishes he says yes can I be put to death first

[kikibalt]

Frank'ol Pal
The songs back in the day were either about love with beautifull lyrics and singers with great voices or happy songs like this one.

Today everyone is pissed off

You're right, Rog, now days its all about gangster rap...what poop!!....

Frank there was these two guys on death row,so the warden asks the first guy do you have any wants or wishes before you are put to death,yes he replies I want to listen to rap, then the warden asks the second guy if he has any want's or wishes he says yes can I be put to death first

Paulino...In my house no rap music, if you can call it music, is allowed, I can handle just about any kind of music, but no feaking rap.....

[Rick Farris]

I was curious about Hagakure and decided to find out a little more about it. There is a book called Hagakure: The Book of the Samurai, I went to a local used bookstore near my house to see if I could find a copy. They didn't have one but I ordered it and it should be here in about a week, maybe less. Looking forward to reading it.

While I was there I picked up a DVD of "Body and Soul" with John Garfield. I've seen it a lot of times. It's one of the better boxing movies from Hollywood's Golden Era. The movie featured several boxing personalities, most of them uncredited. Themovie still holds up well.

This is why I love this thread and the guys who post here. "Hagakure", another dimension.

[Rick Farris]

Frank'ol Pal
The songs back in the day were either about love with beautifull lyrics and singers with great voices or happy songs like this one.

Today everyone is pissed off

You're right, Rog, now days its all about gangster rap...what poop!!....

Frank there was these two guys on death row,so the warden asks the first guy do you have any wants or wishes before you are put to death,yes he replies I want to listen to rap, then the warden asks the second guy if he has any want's or wishes he says yes can I be put to death first

A Grammy winning record producer I met commented, "Rap is crap, without the 'C'."

[Rick Farris]

I think we are all turning into a bunch of Mel Epsteins.
----------------------------------------------------------------

Randy, that thought occured to me.
Just this afternoon, John Bardelli made the same comment. I agreed.
Now out of the blue, you post this!
Mel is alive here.
Bardelli will get a kick out of this Mel Epstein coincidence!

-Rick

Big Hair . . .

I found a photo that was taken of me with my girlfriend in 1972, at the Coconut Grove.
This was on a friday, and the previous monday I'd had a pretty tough fight at the Forum.
In the photo, you can see the fresh cut over my right eye.
However, the most noticeable thing was the hair. I can see why Mel got a little upset.
However, it was no longer than you would see Danny Lopez, or the Baltazar boys wearing.
I'll scan the photo and post it. I was 20 that night, and we were at the Grove to see Sarah Vaughn and the Four Tops.
While you guys laugh at the big hair, I know Mel Epstein well be spinning in his grave.

[kikibalt]

I think we are all turning into a bunch of Mel Epsteins.
----------------------------------------------------------------

Randy, that thought occured to me.
Just this afternoon, John Bardelli made the same comment. I agreed.
Now out of the blue, you post this!
Mel is alive here.
Bardelli will get a kick out of this Mel Epstein coincidence!

-Rick

Big Hair . . .

I found a photo that was taken of me with my girlfriend in 1972, at the Coconut Grove.
This was on a friday, and the previous monday I'd had a pretty tough fight at the Forum.
In the photo, you can see the fresh cut over my right eye.
However, the most noticeable thing was the hair. I can see why Mel got a little upset.
However, it was no longer than you would see Danny Lopez, or the Baltazar boys wearing.
I'll scan the photo and post it. I was 20 that night, and we were at the Grove to see Sarah Vaughn and the Four Tops.
While you guys laugh at the big hair, I know Mel Epstein well be spinning in his grave.

Can't wait to see that pic.

One time I had to give Tony a hair cut in between rounds....

[m1kee50]

Mention of The Hagakure, Samurai references in our thread. Gotta love it.
We are renneissance men here!
Of course, Im not sure how to spell renneissance.

Renaissance (means quite literally rebirth in French).

As for the Hagakure reference, I just meant it as a general principle... how many fighters get knocked due to being safety first? Eventually they get their dues but the people who get remembered are the warriors.

"Even if it seems certain that you will lose, retaliate. Neither wisdom nor technique has a place in this. A man does not think of victory or defeat. He plunges recklessly towards an irrational death. In doing so, you will awaken from your dreams"

[Expug]

Yes, I like you're reference to The Hagakure as it applies to boxing.
The Way of the Samurai is always fascinating.
Musashis book of five rings is also enlightening.

[kikibalt]

Rick looks like a pug in this picture



Rick Farris & Karla Nelson
Coconut Grove 1972

[kikibalt]

This photo, according to Travilla's business partner and long-time friend Bill Sarris, shows Monroe and Travilla with an unidentified African-American man at the 5-4 Club in South Central Los Angeles in 1952. It has been in print only a handful of times, and has always appeared cropped, without the second man.

The story of this photo, as Travilla and Bill Sarris tell it, is that he and Marilyn spent the evening at an almost exclusively black club in Los Angeles - something that just wasn't done in 1952. The studio was outraged, especially after her nude photograph scandal in March of that year, and the fact that she had just been on the April cover of Life magazine and hailed as 'The Talk of Hollywood.' As a result of being 'caught on camera,' they fired Travilla from the film they were working on. But Marilyn - one of Travilla's closest friends - stood up and said 'If he goes, I go.' And of course, they let him stay, but they were successful in keeping this picture out of the press."

"Marilyn was ahead of her time in terms of racial equality and civil rights. Even Ella Fitzgerald credits Marilyn with getting her into some of the 'upper-crust' jazz clubs of the day. She knew how to throw her weight around and it fits that she would stand up for Travilla.

"We're searching for this mans identity," He's a part of history now that we're revealing the photograph in its entirety for the first time.

[raylawpc]

I think we are all turning into a bunch of Mel Epsteins.
----------------------------------------------------------------

Randy, that thought occured to me.
Just this afternoon, John Bardelli made the same comment. I agreed.
Now out of the blue, you post this!
Mel is alive here.
Bardelli will get a kick out of this Mel Epstein coincidence!

-Rick

"If one is under twenty-five and is not a liberal, he has no heart; if one is over 25 and not a conservative, he had no head." -- attributed to Winston Churchhill.