and they wonder why we say fighters in the past were better.

[jimglen]

this is great footage and a great representation of what was EXPECTED at TOP Level and what was allowed to continue... one ATG and one not so well known top man.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeeT44STeq4

and this isn't even from boxing greatest period, yet miles ahead of what we're left with in the last 30 years - bar the odd fighter!!!

[gambler49]

So how do u think Ortiz vs Pacman would turn out?

[jimglen]

first of all, you'll note from reading my first post that I stated, "bar the odd fighter" and Manny is certainly one of them, he has proved his mettle...

I still give the edge favourably to Ortiz, and again for Harder, Tougher era's...

even in ghetto's and hard hit places, we still benifit from modern life and the 'luxuries' that come with it. Softening our durability and mental driving force, in other words "fortitude and perseverance" equaling the tolerance of what people had to live with, "just get the head down and get on with it"

that's all out the window, even among poor and ghetto existance.

anyway harder times bred harder people, and there are No More Real HARDMEN left, tough guys sure, true hardmen very, very few.

[jimglen]

Hardman or Hardmen is a British expression for right _ucken' tough guy, someone that even tough nuts (guys, another British expression) were afraid of, and had full respect for...

OFCOURSE we're talking about Skill, and in those Hardtimes the combination of the two was found by most champions and Top men!!!

[Idisagree]

first of all, you'll note from reading my first post that I stated, "bar the odd fighter" and Manny is certainly one of them, he has proved his mettle...

I still give the edge favourably to Ortiz, and again for Harder, Tougher era's...

even in ghetto's and hard hit places, we still benifit from modern life and the 'luxuries' that come with it. Softening our durability and mental driving force, in other words "fortitude and perseverance" equaling the tolerance of what people had to live with, "just get the head down and get on with it"

that's all out the window, even among poor and ghetto existance.

anyway harder times bred harder people, and there are No More Real HARDMEN left, tough guys sure, true hardmen very, very few.

That my friend I agree. I think Ortiz had what it takes to beat Pac. Ortiz is terribly under-rated by many on this forum.

[dempseyfire]

To be fair, to describe the destitute poor in the Phillipines as having 'benefitted from modern amenities' is pretty ridiculous. Pacquao came from nothing and that is partly why he's so successful, he has that inner hunger/animal in from bred from his early years fighting for chump change to feed himself.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Ortiz was brilliant. Probably one of the most under-celebrated fighters, relative to his talent, on any board on the Net --- & that says a whole lot.

[St McComas]

Carlos Ortiz is still training fighters at Gleason's Gym in Brooklyn, NY. I had a session or two with him about a month ago. It went something like this:
Me: Hey, Coach that was the bell, end of the round. Ortiz: Bells don't mean anything, keep working.

He's still a fireball with unbridled energy.

[The Great John L]

Carlos Ortiz is still training fighters at Gleason's Gym in Brooklyn, NY. I had a session or two with him about a month ago. It went something like this:
Me: Hey, Coach that was the bell, end of the round. Ortiz: Bells don't mean anything, keep working.

He's still a fireball with unbridled energy.

Great post.

[raylawpc]

Ortiz had trouble with southpaws. Kenny Lane gave him fits. Pacman is better than Kenny Lane.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Ortiz had trouble with southpaws. Kenny Lane gave him fits. Pacman is better than Kenny Lane.

...& Ortiz is better than Marquez.

[raylawpc]

Ortiz had trouble with southpaws. Kenny Lane gave him fits. Pacman is better than Kenny Lane.

...& Ortiz is better than Marquez.

Are you suggesting that Pac has trouble with boxers who fight from an orthdox stance?

[Idisagree]

[Idisagree]

Ortiz had trouble with southpaws. Kenny Lane gave him fits. Pacman is better than Kenny Lane.

What are you talking about he had trouble with Kenny Lane? He lost a close MD to him and then came back and TKO him. Yes the fight was stopped on a cut, but Ortiz was putting a hurt on him.
Maybe you should take a look at it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2LKBbp3QUU

And if Ortiz had problems with southpaws, how do you explain him dominating a very game Flash Elorde 2x? Wasn’t he a southpaw too?

[TheGreatA]

Not saying that Elorde and Pacquiao are exactly the same type of fighters, but Ortiz did look very impressive in defeating Elorde twice. Elorde was a quick southpaw with good skills. I'm not sure if Ortiz had problems with southpaws, he just had problems with Kenny Lane, that's all.

[raylawpc]

I am embarrassed to say I forgot Elorde was a southpaw. But, Idisagree, it was Ortiz himself who told me Lane gave him trouble. You'll excuse me if I accept his opinion over yours.