Ron Lyle

[zojo]

Over rated

Under rated

Rated just where he should be

???

[dempseyfire]

I'm not really sure where most rate him. I think he was an excellent fighter who would've been even better if he hadn't turned pro so late b/c of his prison sentence. By the time he beat Bugner he was slipping considerably as a fighter, and I think his late career wins over Ward and LeDoux could've gone the other way on the scorecards. But even with that, he has victories over Ellis, Mathis (though Buster by that time was fairly washed up), Bonavena, Shavers, Bugner, Middleton and Garcia, and gave Foreman and Ali very competitive fights- not a bad resume at all. He'd probably make my top 50 HWs of all time. Monster puncher with a good skillset, chin and under-rated speed/athleticism. Biggest negatives were a sometimes leaky defense and under-utilizing his left jab.

[Goodnight, Irene]

More or less, where he should be. At the peak of his powers, one of the better contenders of his time --- pretty decent boxing skills, a great punch, & a good finisher with plenty of heart.

He never got over lettings his hands dangle too low, & could be clumsy on the attack, leaving him open to quality counter-punchers, such as Jerry Quarry & Jimmy Young. Very difficult to top once he hurt his man, though --- a younger version would have demolished Gerry Cooney, even if he had to get off the deck (ala vs. Earnie Shavers) to do so.

A genuinely good, but less than great, fighter. A battle with the the Ron Lyle who ran George Foreman & Muhammad Ali close & the Oscar Bonavena of the late-60's would've been a great clash.

[The Great John L]

Ron is clearly under rated. He came within an eyelash of beating Foreman, and is the only fighter to ever drop George without him being exhausted. His abilities were very similar to George he just lacked George's confidence and aggressiveness. Even the results were similar for their common opponents.

It’s interesting that most have Foreman top 10, some even top 5 all time, yet Lyle is usually not even put in top 50. Of course, I expect to get hammered for this opinion, but it seems a pretty logical comparison.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Ron is clearly under rated. He came within an eyelash of beating Foreman, and is the only fighter to ever drop George without him being exhausted. His abilities were very similar to George he just lacked George's confidence and aggressiveness. Even the results were similar for their common opponents.

It’s interesting that most have Foreman top 10, some even top 5 all time, yet Lyle is usually not even put in top 50. Of course, I expect to get hammered for this opinion, but it seems a pretty logical comparison.

Yes & no. For one thing (in response to rankings between Foreman & Lyle), off-nights do happen for great boxers, & sometimes it's not really too much more than a case of that. For another --- & perhaps this is more tangibly relevant --- Foreman was both ring-rusted & mentally just not in the game. He hadn't had a competitive fight in nearly eighteen months.

I always saw something in the between-rounds footage --- before round two commences, the camera captures Foreman lean forward on his stool & grind his jaw. He's just coming off being visibly rocked in round one, & I always suspected Foreman was thinking, "I've got my work cut out for me, here," which he perhaps was not expecting.

Lyle caught Foreman at the right time, IMO. Had Lyle taken, say, Roman or Norton's place during a switched-on Foreman's brief title tenure, he still would have been competitive, but I see Foreman as a significantly more decisive winner under those circumstances.

[The Great John L]

Ron is clearly under rated. He came within an eyelash of beating Foreman, and is the only fighter to ever drop George without him being exhausted. His abilities were very similar to George he just lacked George's confidence and aggressiveness. Even the results were similar for their common opponents.

It’s interesting that most have Foreman top 10, some even top 5 all time, yet Lyle is usually not even put in top 50. Of course, I expect to get hammered for this opinion, but it seems a pretty logical comparison.

Yes & no. For one thing (in response to rankings between Foreman & Lyle), off-nights do happen for great boxers, & sometimes it's not really too much more than a case of that. For another --- & perhaps this is more tangibly relevant --- Foreman was both ring-rusted & mentally just not in the game. He hadn't had a competitive fight in nearly eighteen months.

I always saw something in the between-rounds footage --- before round two commences, the camera captures Foreman lean forward on his stool & grind his jaw. He's just coming off being visibly rocked in round one, & I always suspected Foreman was thinking, "I've got my work cut out for me, here," which he perhaps was not expecting.

Lyle caught Foreman at the right time, IMO. Had Lyle taken, say, Roman or Norton's place during a switched-on Foreman's brief title tenure, he still would have been competitive, but I see Foreman as a significantly more decisive winner under those circumstances.

Well, I didn't expect my opinion to be popular. Yes, Foreman could have been rusty, but based on the fights with their common opponents, and the massive struggle, it's more likely that they really were comporable fighters. After all, George wasn't toally inactive after Zaire. Don't forget the Toronto five.

I guess Young caught him at the right time as well.

[dempseyfire]

I think Lyle always gives Foreman hell at any stage of his career.

[Nile4000]

He may have given George some problems in his prime, but I think George gets Ron outta there quicker.

[The Great John L]

He may have given George some problems in his prime, but I think George gets Ron outta there quicker.

So when was George's prime? Was his prime even shorter than Tysons. What about Lyle? He had lost two of his previous 3 fights and his last fight prior to Foreman was an all out war with Shavers. Most likely he was damaged goods going in to the Foreman fight. Maybe a "prime" Lyle gets George out of there when he has him hurt rather than letting him off the hook a number of times like the damaged Lyle did in their fight.

[Nile4000]

He may have given George some problems in his prime, but I think George gets Ron outta there quicker.

So when was George's prime? Was his prime even shorter than Tysons. What about Lyle? He had lost two of his previous 3 fights and his last fight prior to Foreman was an all out war with Shavers. Most likely he was damaged goods going in to the Foreman fight. Maybe a "prime" Lyle gets George out of there when he has him hurt rather than letting him off the hook a number of times like the damaged Lyle did in their fight.

True, but remember that George post-Zaire had a damaged psyche,when he fought Lyle, had not really had a meaningful fight for 18 months, so he was a bit rusty.I don't think he would've been as sloppy as the 1976-1977 version.

[The Great John L]

He may have given George some problems in his prime, but I think George gets Ron outta there quicker.

So when was George's prime? Was his prime even shorter than Tysons. What about Lyle? He had lost two of his previous 3 fights and his last fight prior to Foreman was an all out war with Shavers. Most likely he was damaged goods going in to the Foreman fight. Maybe a "prime" Lyle gets George out of there when he has him hurt rather than letting him off the hook a number of times like the damaged Lyle did in their fight.

True, but remember that George post-Zaire had a damaged psyche,when he fought Lyle, had not really had a meaningful fight for 18 months, so he was a bit rusty.I don't think he would've been as sloppy as the 1976-1977 version.

Huh? As sloppy as the 76-77 version!? George was a much more patient and skilled fighter post Zaire than he was in any of his earlier fights. He spent countless hours in the gym learning how to pace himself better, throw shorter punches and control the ring. Obviously I don't think any of that applied in the Lyle fight, but the Foreman that eveolved over the subsequent few fights was basically the patience and control of the old fat George combined with youth, power and better quickness of the older George.

Damaged psyche! And Lyle didn't have a damged psyche after the controversial ending in the Ali fight, or from the beating he took against Shavers? George seems to have more apopologists on this forum than Tyson does.

George was a great fighter, but he built his reputation on beating two guys whose styles were just about perfect for him. He had a very weak resume prior to the Frazier fight, and once he was forced to fight a guy who could avoid his punches, George lost. I still don't understand why he fought Young, but my guess is that he and his management actually thought he had improved and learned enough that he could beat a guy like Young.

George squeeked by Lyle because of his single greatest asset. His will to win. If he had truly had a damaged psyche, he could have never won that fight, he would have simply remained on the canvas.

[Mr E]

Over rated

Under rated

Rated just where he should be

???

I think most people have a pretty healthy respect for Lyle. I've always wondered how far he could have gotten had he not spent so much of his prime in the slammer. By the time he had the experience under his belt to really become a great fighter, he had already started losing some of his reflexes.

He was a cagier fighter than I think people give him credit for being and he had more mobility too. He was not quite in the league of Foreman or Shavers as a puncher, IMO, but he was close. Clearly, he had legitimate knockout power in both hands. He could also fight backing up when necessary. It's interesting that, in the Shavers fight, Lyle was the "boxer" -- until Earnie wound down. Shows Lyle had some versatilty and was more than just a walk-up slugger.

His stamina was inconsistent and he could be hurt. Not a "weak chin" by any means but not a "granite jaw" for sure. He did have tons of heart, though, and I think he recovered very quickly when he got his bell rung. It's been a long time since I watched the Quarry-Lyle fight but, as I recall, Quarry dazed him a few times but never for very long.

He had nice wins over Rondon, Mathis, Ellis (over-the-hill but still pretty good), Shavers, Bonavena, Bugner (when Lyle was over the hill). He had trouble with movers like Peralta and Young, and probably would have lost to prime Ellis, I think. Of course, he fought impressively against Ali and Foreman. He always claimed he tried hard to get both Frazier and Norton in the ring. I seriously seriously doubt he beats Frazier, though I do think he would have put up a great fight in losing, but I like his chances against Norton big time.

All in all, a terrific fighter who stopped just short of being a great one. My humble opinion, gentlemen.

[Mr E]

He may have given George some problems in his prime, but I think George gets Ron outta there quicker.

I think Foreman's "psyche" may have been better after the Ali fight. I think he came back with more overall resolve and will to win -- i.e., "heart" -- after Zaire. He found out what it felt like to lose and he didn't want that to happen again.

He may have been a little rusty against Lyle in terms of timing, etc., but, I think he came back a tighter, more complete fighter with a better skill set. IMO, the best Foreman ever looked was in the Frazier rematch. He weighed 224 1/2 and was throwing straighter, more controlled punches. He was never "agile" but his speed of delivery was seriously under-rated when he didn't loop his punches. Look at how he consistently beat Frazier to the punch with his straight left hand in that fight. He really looks great in that fight.

Against Young, he didn't train quite as hard as he should have and he didn't get down there in time to get his body accustomed to the climate. Plus, he was so over-confident going in that he didn't put enough pressure on Young early, really just gave some of those rounds away. He lost that fight but it was actually pretty close. No one could call it a "draw" but it was not a complete runaway for Young. Had they fought again a few months later with Foreman trained back down to the point he was during the Frazier rematch, I think it's still a tough fight for George based on styles -- but I think George wins it (and I'm a BIG Jimmy Young fan).

[Brutu]

I remember reading when Joe Frazier invited Ron Lyle to spar with him(still an amateur)at the Concord hotel in January 1971,
to help Lyle prepare for the USA vrs Soviet Union boxing matches.
Frazier said hitting Lyle was like hitting concrete.

[Brutu]

How many of Ron Lyle's fights were filmed/taped or televised?
(amateur and professional).

[dempseyfire]

He may have given George some problems in his prime, but I think George gets Ron outta there quicker.

I think Foreman's "psyche" may have been better after the Ali fight. I think he came back with more overall resolve and will to win -- i.e., "heart" -- after Zaire. He found out what it felt like to lose and he didn't want that to happen again.

He may have been a little rusty against Lyle in terms of timing, etc., but, I think he came back a tighter, more complete fighter with a better skill set. IMO, the best Foreman ever looked was in the Frazier rematch. He weighed 224 1/2 and was throwing straighter, more controlled punches. He was never "agile" but his speed of delivery was seriously under-rated when he didn't loop his punches. Look at how he consistently beat Frazier to the punch with his straight left hand in that fight. He really looks great in that fight.

Against Young, he didn't train quite as hard as he should have and he didn't get down there in time to get his body accustomed to the climate. Plus, he was so over-confident going in that he didn't put enough pressure on Young early, really just gave some of those rounds away. He lost that fight but it was actually pretty close. No one could call it a "draw" but it was not a complete runaway for Young. Had they fought again a few months later with Foreman trained back down to the point he was during the Frazier rematch, I think it's still a tough fight for George based on styles -- but I think George wins it (and I'm a BIG Jimmy Young fan).

I actually had Foreman-Young a draw in rounds won 6-6, with Foreman taking rounds 1,3,4,5,7 and 10 and Young 2,5,8,9,11, and 12 with the KD giving him the win. Watch the fight without the biased commentary, actually a VERY close fight. Young didn't start landing anything of note until the 8th.

[Mr E]

He may have given George some problems in his prime, but I think George gets Ron outta there quicker.

I think Foreman's "psyche" may have been better after the Ali fight. I think he came back with more overall resolve and will to win -- i.e., "heart" -- after Zaire. He found out what it felt like to lose and he didn't want that to happen again.

He may have been a little rusty against Lyle in terms of timing, etc., but, I think he came back a tighter, more complete fighter with a better skill set. IMO, the best Foreman ever looked was in the Frazier rematch. He weighed 224 1/2 and was throwing straighter, more controlled punches. He was never "agile" but his speed of delivery was seriously under-rated when he didn't loop his punches. Look at how he consistently beat Frazier to the punch with his straight left hand in that fight. He really looks great in that fight.

Against Young, he didn't train quite as hard as he should have and he didn't get down there in time to get his body accustomed to the climate. Plus, he was so over-confident going in that he didn't put enough pressure on Young early, really just gave some of those rounds away. He lost that fight but it was actually pretty close. No one could call it a "draw" but it was not a complete runaway for Young. Had they fought again a few months later with Foreman trained back down to the point he was during the Frazier rematch, I think it's still a tough fight for George based on styles -- but I think George wins it (and I'm a BIG Jimmy Young fan).

I actually had Foreman-Young a draw in rounds won 6-6, with Foreman taking rounds 1,3,4,5,7 and 10 and Young 2,5,8,9,11, and 12 with the KD giving him the win. Watch the fight without the biased commentary, actually a VERY close fight. Young didn't start landing anything of note until the 8th.

Ha. I almost never listen to the commentary as it only rarely enlightens. I can't remember exactly but I think I had it 7-5 Young.

[Brutu]

Ron Lyle's amateur record was 29 fights.(25 wins and 4 losses all by decision).
That doesnt include the 20 or 25 bouts he had while in the Colorado State Pennitentary.

[granberry]

Jimmy Young handled Lyle eaisly--TWICE.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Jimmy Young handled Lyle eaisly--TWICE.

Is this knocking Lyle, or selling Young?

[granberry]

Jimmy Young handled Lyle eaisly--TWICE.

Is this knocking Lyle, or selling Young?

Young beat Lyle easily twice.

In the ring.

Has nothing to do with knocking or selling.

What are YOU selling, Irene?

Poison?

[Goodnight, Irene]

That post reminds me of the guy in the darkness, swinging his gun every which way. Shooting at ghosts, & perceived threats which aren't really there.

Sometimes, a question is just a question, Gran. Like the original thread's Q. Which you managed to evade.

[Goodnight, Irene]

LOL!

Some days, this sh!t is tiresome, but it's on-song today. Hitting the right note with all that venom, G-Man

Again, though --- are we tearing down Lyle, Gran, or up-selling Young? I know you're a dedicated Young supporter, but what of Lyle?

[Goodnight, Irene]

In the ring Young beat Lyle easily twice.

Much more easily than Foreman or Ali did.

Ad hominem irene doesn't like that.

He digs your vague bullsh!tting, though

[granberry]

In the second Jimmy Young-Ron Lyle fight

two judges scored it 9 rounds for Young, 1 round for Lyle and 2 rounds even.

The other judge scored it 8 rounds for Young, 1 round for Lyle, and 3 rounds even.